Can Astronomy Ireland really be considered an 'Astronomy club' anymore?

gowayyalanger · 12-04-2009 9:55pm #1

Isn't an Astronomy club or organisation's main goal supposed to be the popularisation and promotion of astronomy?
In the past few years it appears that Astronomy Ireland's sole aim is to make money through it's telescope shop and premium rate phone lines.
I know it costs money to run any organisation but AI's use of premium rate phone lines ( a long part of and large cost of which is spent listening to adverts for their shop) is mercenary in the least. I wonder how many people are paying through the nose for information such as space station timings on the AI phone line?

AI seem to give the impression through the media that they are the only reliable source for all things astronomical when a professional astronomer or an experienced amateur could provide the information reliably and without endless plugging of AI's shop and website.

I would love to have a representative of AI come on here and prove me wrong and I would be happy to admit to being wrong.

I would also like to know if anyone agrees with me on this.

BankMan · 12-04-2009 10:17pm

I think you make a lot of valid points. No arguments.

npc_100 · 12-04-2009 10:47pm

This is a tricky one, there is no doubt that they do raise public awareness of astronomy (although I fully accept there are other more experienced/qualified people in the counntry), and they are very professional looking and organised very well and certainly try to get 'the message' out there. I think there are a great bunch of good, well meaning people/volunteers in the club who are doing their best to widen the audience for astronomy in the country.

But in my experience I can't shake the feeling that the clubs membership list serves very much as a marketing tool for the shop, which it just a business that an individual owns and keeps the profit from. I have no problem with the shop itself, just think there should be more clear seperation of the club and the business with a clear indication of where everyones interests lie.

gowayyalanger · 13-04-2009 12:08am

I'm glad the separation of club and shop was raised here. I didn't even know there was one! As far as I knew from the way it's marketed is that they were one and the same.

Calibos · 13-04-2009 12:19am

Agree 100%.

Heres my Story. In my innocence I thought that the AI Roundwood StarBQ was a free public Starparty. Found out it was actually 40 euro..Em OK, I suppose the caterers and lecturers need to be paid. Right so, I'll bring my 12" Dobsonian Telescope, pay my 40 euro entry fee and provide my time and scope free to the public. I knew some guys bringing their scopes already. I get a phone call from one of the lads telling my not to bring my scope. Why? Because its an Orion and only Celestrons and Homemade scopes are allowed at the StarBQ. Why? Because the AI shop sells Celestrons and they don't want any other brands or types of scope there. Not even when I am paying 40 euro in, giving my time for free and letting the public look for free through my large scope???
Eh No....

FFS!!

Thargor · 13-04-2009 3:45pm

Listen to this interview he did on Gerry Ryan after that big fireball was seen a while ago, its just embarrassing, and Gerry Ryan seemed to be encouraging it:

http://www.astronomy.ie/audio/2FM_090406.mp3

I'll never buy anything from them, their magazine is very amateurish compared to the alternatives aswell.

lostexpectation · 13-04-2009 6:05pm

Calibos wrote: »

Agree 100%.

Heres my Story. In my innocence I thought that the AI Roundwood StarBQ was a free public Starparty. Found out it was actually 40 euro..Em OK, I suppose the caterers and lecturers need to be paid. Right so, I'll bring my 12" Dobsonian Telescope, pay my 40 euro entry fee and provide my time and scope free to the public. I knew some guys bringing their scopes already. I get a phone call from one of the lads telling my not to bring my scope. Why? Because its an Orion and only Celestrons and Homemade scopes are allowed at the StarBQ. Why? Because the AI shop sells Celestrons and they don't want any other brands or types of scope there. Not even when I am paying 40 euro in, giving my time for free and letting the public look for free through my large scope???
Eh No....

FFS!!

ah now i understand what you've been complaining about, your damn right to complain

Climate Expert · 13-04-2009 6:09pm

Astronomy Ireland are a disgrace and have done huge damage to the already flaky image of astronomy in Ireland. Shame on you all.

npc_100 · 13-04-2009 7:06pm

Climate Expert wrote: »

Astronomy Ireland are a disgrace and have done huge damage to the already flaky image of astronomy in Ireland. Shame on you all.

Think we need to be careful here, the vast majority of members are well meaning and believe what they are doing is for the best, it is the people pulling the strings that are setting the direction for the club.
for example, Calibos earlier post, wanted to help out and volunteer his time & equipment, but the powers that be didn't want it, am sure he is not the only one this has happened to.

Calibos · 13-04-2009 8:31pm

You don't know how hard my decision to submit a Fireball report to AI was. In the end I figured that seeing as AI have a stranglehold on the media for anything astro related, that it would be AI that received the most fireball reports from the general public. Not to denegrate the public but tbh most people don't know their N,S,E & W

so I figured the organisation most likely to receive enough data to triangulate, should have some more reliable data in the mix.

Ended up getting an email from CEO Mr M himself. Oh the irony! Little does he know what I think of his organisation

I listened to the Gerry Ryan fireball interview. I just knew he'd manage to mention the premium rate ISS text service ( someone with no self interest would have recommended the free website 'heavens-Above' for ISS times) and of course when asked about where people can buy telescopes, he makes no mention of any other Irish astronomy shops never mind the foreign shops with an internet precence. As far as he made the public aware, the Astronomy Ireland shop is the only way to buy telescope in Ireland. Which is fine, Moore is a businessman. What besinessman recommends the competition. the problem and conflict of interest lies in the fact that he is supposed to be a chairman of an Astronomical Soceity promoting Astronomy to the public. Thats why AI appears for all intents and purposes to be merely a promotional tool for one mans private enterprise.

Fair play to the canny businessman, he manouvered himself to be Mr Irish Astronomy, the medias goto guy and thus the first organisation any Irish person thinks about when they think astromony....and...thus....11,000 paying members!!

I am at a loss as to what mebership gets you though. You still have to pay for the magazine and you still have to pay to see the Lectures. How is it that a small regional club can have lectures presented by world renowned speakers all covered by our annual membership fee of 20 euro and yet AI with 11,000 paying members charge those members even more money on top.

As some of you will know, this very forum used to be called the Astronomy Ireland forum until David demanded it be taken down. I have no idea what the reasons for this were. On the other Irish astronomy forum I post on there is never mention of specifics but when there is ever some co-operation between members of the two organisations, there are always comments like, "great to finally bury the hatchet, putting the past behind us.....etc etc". Something must have soured relations between the two long before my time.

I've never asked for the reasons behind these events in the distant past either.

But I can guess........!!

Same sh!t, different year

hellboy99 · 13-04-2009 9:52pm

Calibos wrote: »

Agree 100%.

Heres my Story. In my innocence I thought that the AI Roundwood StarBQ was a free public Starparty. Found out it was actually 40 euro..Em OK, I suppose the caterers and lecturers need to be paid. Right so, I'll bring my 12" Dobsonian Telescope, pay my 40 euro entry fee and provide my time and scope free to the public. I knew some guys bringing their scopes already. I get a phone call from one of the lads telling my not to bring my scope. Why? Because its an Orion and only Celestrons and Homemade scopes are allowed at the StarBQ. Why? Because the AI shop sells Celestrons and they don't want any other brands or types of scope there. Not even when I am paying 40 euro in, giving my time for free and letting the public look for free through my large scope???
Eh No....

FFS!!

That's a disgrace.

You took the time and were willing to pay the fee so others could benefit on the night, for any Astronomy group to say your not allowed in because of your brand of telescope is a pure joke. If that's the way they want to operate then they should be paying all the people there allowed in with their telescopes seeing as they are advertising AI shop products.

dmcdona · 13-04-2009 10:56pm

The whole AI "subject" has been discussed extensively over the years. The sentiments expressed here are held by many people. But its a free country and AI/A&S Ltd are entitled to do whatever they want within the law.

Equally though, the average punter is also equally entitled to do whatever they want - subscribe, buy from the shop etc - or not.

There are alternatives for the average punter - irishastronomy.org hosts all the IFAS affiliated clubs across Ireland (including the North). It also has a very active board area (free subscription) covering all aspects of astronomy, including the purchase of equipment.

Dave

lostexpectation · 13-04-2009 11:00pm

not mentioning the costs of the text number on the show, not mentioning he's an agent for a particular telescope company, all legal but sanctionable, enough get him kicked out of his position.

i wonder if you complain about it the via the bbc via the gerry ryan show.

npc_100 · 14-04-2009 12:10am

dmcdona wrote: »

Equally though, the average punter is also equally entitled to do whatever they want - subscribe, buy from the shop etc - or not.
Dave

True, but the average punter knows what they are supporting when they walk into Argos to buy a telescope, or join a regular club. Not sure if it is that clear cut here, it's not like they advertise as AI/A&S Ltd, just AI, there needs to be a clearer seperation between the club and the business up front, so everyone knows the setup prior to signing up.

ynotdu · 14-04-2009 2:39am

gowayyalanger wrote: »

Isn't an Astronomy club or organisation's main goal supposed to be the popularisation and promotion of astronomy?
In the past few years it appears that Astronomy Ireland's sole aim is to make money through it's telescope shop and premium rate phone lines.
I know it costs money to run any organisation but AI's use of premium rate phone lines ( a long part of and large cost of which is spent listening to adverts for their shop) is mercenary in the least. I wonder how many people are paying through the nose for information such as space station timings on the AI phone line?

AI seem to give the impression through the media that they are the only reliable source for all things astronomical when a professional astronomer or an experienced amateur could provide the information reliably and without endless plugging of AI's shop and website.

I would love to have a representative of AI come on here and prove me wrong and I would be happy to admit to being wrong.

I would also like to know if anyone agrees with me on this.

Yes they have become an elitist clique,I can find no defense for them at all,especioly for kids who are curious about space.I,m sure you know the N.A.S.A site gives everything Ai charges premium rates for,I.S.S sighting times etc.

They got greedy even though they started as well meaning.

I wonder is their a url anybody knows where a real time viewing of a decent telescopes image is available? I searched&searched with no luck.?

squonk · 14-04-2009 9:03am

Back in my college days I dropped a mail to AI enquiring about getting some assistance in setting up a branch in my university as there wasn't one there already. I got a polite mail back from Mr. Moore saying that it wasn't possible and that I should join AI and pay in to local lectures and... <insert extra marketing bs until you get bored>... so I gave up. I'm no fan of the organisation I must say. The story about only Celestrons being allowed along to their StarBQ is awful. I have a Meade LX90 now that I got recently and was thining of dropping along to one of their events at some stage. I'll think again if that's their attitude. Put it this way too, if anyone is interested in buying a scope, they'll quickly see that the prices available on the net are lower than in the AI shop. We're not talking about Ireland in the 1980's or early 90's now where only a few had access to the net and fewer still were comfortable with online shopping. Good luck to them....

Linguo · 14-04-2009 1:31pm

Remember it's not the people who work there, it's the bosses there. Most people who work or volunteer there just like astronomy, it's only the few at the top who make things bad.

redman · 14-04-2009 2:43pm

dmcdona wrote: »

The whole AI "subject" has been discussed extensively over the years. The sentiments expressed here are held by many people. But its a free country and AI/A&S Ltd are entitled to do whatever they want within the law.

Equally though, the average punter is also equally entitled to do whatever they want - subscribe, buy from the shop etc - or not.

There are alternatives for the average punter - irishastronomy.org hosts all the IFAS affiliated clubs across Ireland (including the North). It also has a very active board area (free subscription) covering all aspects of astronomy, including the purchase of equipment.

Dave

I highly recommend irishastronomy.org as a great website following my own personal disappointing experiences with AI .(I have no personal links with anyone in the industry other that my passion for the subject)
Also there are a number of suppliers I have mentioned on here before including Andy McCrea of NorthDown telescopes who like many others manage to run a business, give a great service and still care for the Astronomy fans in Ireland.

dmcdona · 14-04-2009 5:39pm

There's a list of live astronomy related webcams here:

http://astronomy.customer.netspace.net.au/astronomylive.htm

Its a while since the page was updated but I think some of the feeds are still valid.

Dave

dmcdona · 14-04-2009 5:58pm

npc_100 wrote: »

True, but the average punter knows what they are supporting when they walk into Argos to buy a telescope, or join a regular club. Not sure if it is that clear cut here, it's not like they advertise as AI/A&S Ltd, just AI, there needs to be a clearer seperation between the club and the business up front, so everyone knows the setup prior to signing up.

And therein lies the rub... Unless the general public, who have a new-found interest in astronomy, know that there are alternatives out there, they will of course visit whatever website is advertised over the airwaves, subscribe to text-message services and buy equipment.

Unfortunately, the alternatives out there are amateur organisations/clubs that are run purely by volunteers - it isn't their day-job and they aren't paid. So it is very much part-time and weekends...

Many AI members are equally unpaid volunteers. Judging by the sentiments expressed here, the direction of AI/A&S Ltd is dictated by people at the top and many here seem not to like that direction. It certainly isn't a reflection on those hard-working volunteers though.

All I can say is that I hope anyone interested in astronomy gets to see all the alternatives out there and then makes a valued judgement on what organisation (if any) serves their purposes best.

Its a shame there's an apparent rift between AI/A&S Ltd and amateur astronomers. Again, judging by the way people say they've been treated, it seems there are valid concerns. I personally would hope that any rift could be healed or at the least, shortened, and we all get to enjoy the night sky (and day sky for solar observers

) and are supported by clubs/societies whose interest is to assist everyone. And yes, if necessary, charge a fair fee for doing that.

€0.02

Dave

ynotdu · 15-04-2009 1:26am

Patrick Moores first star gazing instrument was a pair of decent binoculors(honest)He always recommended them for people curious about the cosmo,s as the first thing to buy!(He paid for them by the week to the shop that trusted him.

Shame our cloud cover/street lighting in Ireland ruins astronomy for us:(

under many threads on boards.ie i think many of us searching for the same thing!;)

Orion · 16-04-2009 12:19am

npc_100 wrote: »

the vast majority of members are well meaning

Herein lies the problem - define a 'member'? AI is not registered as a club/society afaik. For your subscription all you get is a monthly magazine - nothing else really. A&S Ltd are the company trading as AI. Your money is just for that subscription.

tbh my real problem is not that A&S are in it for the money - it's that the mainstream media think that they are the only ones to talk to about astronomy. There is someone who's already posted on this thread who co-discovered an asteroid last year. Other members of actual societies in Ireland have aided in major discoveries very recently too. And those societies welcome you along to viewing nights free of charge - I've been to some. But the mainstream media don't even mention them when there's events like the main asteroid showers or ISS passings.

Calibos · 16-04-2009 1:05am

I think you'll find he's discovered 3 at this stage, 6 between the 2 guys

Nothing for 150 years and then 6 come along at once

Someone talked about the availability of information on the net these days in terms of where to buy astro gear and how much to spend etc AI didn't tell people about other vendors because of the close ties with A&S Ltd. But not alone did they take advantage of that to make more sales than the competition but they actually price gouged the customers who knew no better and charged double the prices in the rest of europe even when exchange rates and taxes were taken into account. Thankfully with the internet more and more people are realising there are other options despite AI's persistence in not telling them about the other options. That said, the prices have come down a lot in the last few years at AI. But it was D. Moore that was dragged kicking and screaming into the new realistic pricing age by the kind of genuine guys that constitute the bulk of the organisation that Dmcdona talked about. I don't even think its the 'guy's' plural at the top that are to blame, its the 'guy' at the top. The great guy that pushed hardest for the pricing changes has since left the organisation and I can't speculate on the reasons but I wouldn't be suprised if A&S Ltd pricing starts to creep back up in his absence.

squonk · 16-04-2009 9:05am

The problem is that researchers in the media are either overworked or lazy to look beyond the easy option of grabbing D Moore for a five minute piece when something extraordinary happens to make astronomy a newsworthy item. The fact that the same guy would also talk his way though a brick wall is also good from their perspective. While there are plenty of societies locally out there, unless you're involved in the area, there are no figureheads per se who could be considered a 'go to guy' for interviews. Now, if D Moore was like the rest of us here and interested in getting the average punter into astronomy by being generous with either information or organising free events, we'd have a win-win situation, but he's not and that's the problem. I'd hope that as the internet is now really well established, that people getting into the area would find forums like this or the IFAS website where there are some good people generous with their help and genuinely enthusiastic about astronomy, rather than someone with their hand out always wanting more and more dosh for things that shouldn't be charged for at all.

Oh, and well done to the guys who discovered those asteroids! Nice work!!

Seanie M · 16-04-2009 11:52am

Hi all,

AI is a registered trading name of Astronomy & Space Ltd, there is no 'Astronomy Ireland' astronomy club. They don't even support the other 10 KNOWN amateur clubs in the country. I should know, I tried getting Tullamore Astronomical Society mentioned in it before, even when one of AI's key members at the time gave a talk 4 years ago - no joy. They have, however, tried to balance that recently with discount tickets and such to some of their events of IFAS-members of other clubs, which has to be recognised.

Premium rate phone lines for ISS and Shuttle passes? Feck that! Get it all, accurate and free, online -> www.heavens-above.com. Register your location for free with a username and password, the only hoops you have to jump through, that ensures you get the accurate info.

Impartial (the keyword here) information, with no bias except based on experience, not commercial gain, on an infinite number of telescopes and astro gear on www.irishastronomy.org - don't take my word for it, visit it yourself!

Can't bring a telescope other than a Celestron one? Why? Is Celestron sponsoring the AI get-together's? No, and I don't think they can refuse you at the gate too - if you're forceful enough (after taking the time and trouble to turn up at one of their events with your own scope), just walk on by, pay your admission fee for the food (burger and a can of coke I heard at one time), and enjoy the night sky.

Which you can do pretty much for free with the other amateur clubs around the country.

Oh, and what really makes me smile is their virtue of having 162,814 members, or whatever it is these days. That's actually a head count of everyone that joined since AI formed in 1992, not current live register figures. By right, South Dublin Astronomy Society (SDAS) takes the more members per head of population accolade, because its membership is FREE, has about 100 regulars at local meetings, but could boast a membership of 8.2 billion...

If you do go to an AI event or join as a 'member', make sure you enjoy it - know what your money is getting you.

Clear Skies,

Seanie Morris.
Tullamore Astronomical Society Secretary,
Midlands Astronomy Club Secretary,
Irish Federation of Astronomy Societies (IFAS) Secretary,
Poor as a pauper.

Iridium · 16-04-2009 10:01pm

Seanie M wrote: »

Oh, and what really makes me smile is their virtue of having 162,814 members, or whatever it is these days. That's actually a head count of everyone that joined since AI formed in 1992, not current live register figures.

That is correct. The actual live membership when I used to volunteer was something like 2,500 yet they were claiming over 9,000 members at the time.

squonk · 17-04-2009 8:43am

Iridium wrote: »

That is correct. The actual live membership when I used to volunteer was something like 2,500 yet they were claiming over 9,000 members at the time.

That sounds quite reasonable, much as I love astronomy, I'd fall over if there was a society in this country that actually _HAD_ 150,000+ members! Wish they'd realise we'd all respect them more if they quoted the true figure instead of one we know is highly exagerated!

Stargate · 18-04-2009 1:05am

Seanie YOU always make me smile ;-)

Great read , thank you !!

Stargate

redman · 18-04-2009 8:06am

Well said Seanie

Calibos · 25-04-2009 2:44am

I so regret submitting my fireball report to AI now. Ever since I have been innundated with AI spam

Anyone get the latest Gems. Talk about Hyperbole!.

Drop everything to attend this life changing event....blah blah
This could be the most important meeting you ever attend
We are going to change the face of science promotion in ireland forever
blah blah blah.

Were David Moore and Tony Quinn separated at birth.

Their marketing seem eerily similar. One is a money grabbing charlatan and the other.......sells vitamin supplements:D

I kid, I don't think Moore is a charlatan, I just question the motives of his organisation.

ynotdu · 25-04-2009 9:58pm

If anybody discovers a planet that is not in recession ssssssssshhhhhhhh dont tell AI or mr MORE.

keep it between ourselves and we can raffle to be on one of Bransons spaceflights:)

seriously really enjoying this guy finally being exposed for what he is!

Can Astronomy Ireland really be considered an 'Astronomy club' anymore?

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