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Strength & Conditioning for Runners

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    #62
    IvoryTower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    DubOnHoliday wrote: »
    I find running the day after a S&C session really tough, the legs are so stiff and heavy. Is that a sign I'm doing to much in the S&C? Or should I just do as I'm doing and run it out the next day...

    I often wonder that as well. I'm certain I could hit better times in training if my legs weren't tired from the gym. It makes me wonder would I be better off without the heavy weights, leave that to the pros, maybe just do jumping squats etc.

    Be interested to hear what you lot think?


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    #63
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    You need to make sure that your S+C doesn't interfere with your running. Don't do heavy weights the day before you do a session. A good thing to try is to do your gym sessions on the same day as you hard running sessions. That way you can use the next few days for recovery and it doesn't matter if you're legs are a little heavy. Easy days easy, hard days hard.

    It's important if you are going to do a heavy weight session and a fast track session on the same day, to prioritise the more important one. So if it's just a regular session you can do the S+C beforehand, but if the track session is really important then get it out of the way first.

    Personally speaking, I don't really get any DOMS anymore from the gym work, and I do a pretty intense session. Make sure not to overdo it in the gym, and try and do more that you are fit for. If you have been doing weights for a while and are still getting DOMS, then I would reassess the intensity of the programme.


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    #64
    IvoryTower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    Thanks pconn

    I would do weights on a Sunday, rest mon and run tues. I would def still feel it. I will see if I can move it to Saturday after running.


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    #65
    Timmaay
    Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Timmaay


    pconn062 wrote: »
    You need to make sure that your S+C doesn't interfere with your running. Don't do heavy weights the day before you do a session. A good thing to try is to do your gym sessions on the same day as you hard running sessions. That way you can use the next few days for recovery and it doesn't matter if you're legs are a little heavy. Easy days easy, hard days hard.

    It's important if you are going to do a heavy weight session and a fast track session on the same day, to prioritise the more important one. So if it's just a regular session you can do the S+C beforehand, but if the track session is really important then get it out of the way first.

    Personally speaking, I don't really get any DOMS anymore from the gym work, and I do a pretty intense session. Make sure not to overdo it in the gym, and try and do more that you are fit for. If you have been doing weights for a while and are still getting DOMS, then I would reassess the intensity of the programme.

    The other thing, make sure ya introduce any sort of S&C slowly, just like you wouldn't start running an hr steady your 1st ever run you can't expect your body to be able for a hard S&C session overnight.


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    #66
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    Timmaay wrote: »
    The other thing, make sure ya introduce any sort of S&C slowly, just like you wouldn't start running an hr steady your 1st ever run you can't expect your body to be able for a hard S&C session overnight.

    From my experience with combining S&C with endurance sport I'd add the following.

    DOMS are less severe as your body gets used to strength work. While your getting used to it, ensure you have adequate protein in diet and learn to sleep better. The adaptation occurs during recovery, quality sleep and protein along with time to recover are what really matter here.

    As part of your S&C don't skimp on time spent on mobility work and stretching, it's as important as the lifting itself.

    Start S&C work in the off season, to give your body time to adjust and also when you have time.


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    #67
    sconhome
    Registered Users Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome


    Doesn't need to be weighted for benefits to be felt as a runner:
    In conclusion, a strength-training program including low to high intensity resistance exercises and plyometric exercises performed 2-3 times per week for 8-12 weeks is an appropriate strategy to improve RE in highly training middle- and long-distance runners.

    From "THE EFFECTS OF STRENGTH TRAINING ON RUNNING ECONOMY IN HIGHLY TRAINED RUNNERS: A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW WITH META-ANALYSIS OF CONTROLLED TRIALS." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26694507/


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    #68
    IvoryTower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    For mobility

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W5noV3EkRI


    Core Exercises for Running/Cycling/Swimming

    http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=486


    Actually for mobility this video is excellent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSSDLDhbacc


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    #69
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    sconhome wrote: »
    Doesn't need to be weighted for benefits to be felt as a runner:



    From "THE EFFECTS OF STRENGTH TRAINING ON RUNNING ECONOMY IN HIGHLY TRAINED RUNNERS: A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW WITH META-ANALYSIS OF CONTROLLED TRIALS." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26694507/

    While I agree with your point, that study talks about "low to high intensity resistance training" combined with plyometrics. In this instance I am assuming resistance training=weight training. In my opinion i think it is best to complete some sort of "base phase" of weight training before taking on plyometrics which can be tough on the body and can pose an injury risk.


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    #70
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    S+C really is all the rage, even the Irish Runner are getting in on it!

    http://irishrunner.com/strong-action-demanded/


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    #71
    clear thinking
    Registered Users Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    I'm using this having picked up various core, strength and mobility stuff from various coaches over the years. It's great:

    Strength Training for Runners: Avoid injury and boost performance by John Shepherd (2013)

    In summary, it says you need to do pre-conditioning year round - the basics to avoid the usual runners injuries - calves, squat, lunges etc. It also goes into good detail explaining plyo, max-strenght, drills, core, planning etc.


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    #72
    IvoryTower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    I got a personal trainer to look at my form last night. Unfortunately I won't be lifting heavier than the bar for the next 2 weeks while i work on form but it should make a big difference in the long run. Highly recommended if you're squatting/dead-lifting and never had your form checked.


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    #73
    IvoryTower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    Lads when do you think i should cut back on squats/deadlifts coming into the summer track races. Should I reduce to maybe 2 sets instead of 3 to just maintain muscle? Should I replace them altogether with something different?


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    #74
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    Lads when do you think i should cut back on squats/deadlifts coming into the summer track races. Should I reduce to maybe 2 sets instead of 3 to just maintain muscle? Should I replace them altogether with something different?

    Might be worth paying a S&C coach to do up programmes for you next year, preferably somebody with a background in running, or even better, sprinting.

    If I have a race on a Saturday or Sunday, what I tend to do on the week of the race is do a full gym session early in the week (Monday in my case), and then for my gym session later in the week (Thursday) I cut down the number of sets by 1 (so if I usually do 3 sets, I do 2, if I usually do 2, then I do 1), but keep the weights the same. Same intensity, just not as many sets.

    Before a goal race like Nationals I would cut out the Thursday gym session altogether, and maybe just do some bodyweight stuff that I normally do as part of my gym work (nothing new though). I only do this before really key meets, not all races. You can't freshen up for every race as my old coach would always say. Some you just have to train through.


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    #75
    IvoryTower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    okay thanks Chivito. Im just doing the main lifts x 3 sets so ill drop to 2 sets on race weeks


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    #76
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    okay thanks Chivito. Im just doing the main lifts x 3 sets so ill drop to 2 sets on race weeks

    Just the session nearest to the race is fine. No need to do so for a gym session 5-6 days out though.


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    #77
    DogSlySmile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭DogSlySmile


    I've been out injured with bursitis for quite a while so have been hitting the gym four times a week (S&C classes, kettlebell circuits, spinning etc) to stay fit, keep the weight down while I'm off running and build strength for when I do get back running. I thought I was strong from all the hill running/ultras I used to do but I was wrong! I will definitely be keeping up the gym work when I get back running.

    Cycling to work is my main exercise of the day (16m a day), just wondering is standing on the pedals or sitting on the bike while cycling a better replacement for running? As in, is one more similar to running/the muscles used in running than the other?


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    #78
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    Sat through a webinar with the author of this book a few weeks back.

    https://www.amazon.com/Strength-Conditioning-Endurance-Running-Blagrove/dp/1847979874

    Picked up the book over the weekend and is arguably the best S and C book I have ever read (even better IMO that the Tudor Bompa's Periodization book)

    One for Santy for anyone with an interest in warm ups,drills, mobility, strength training, plyometrics or general conditioning


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    #79
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Testosterscone wrote: »
    Sat through a webinar with the author of this book a few weeks back.

    https://www.amazon.com/Strength-Conditioning-Endurance-Running-Blagrove/dp/1847979874

    Picked up the book over the weekend and is arguably the best S and C book I have ever read (even better IMO that the Tudor Bompa's Periodization book)

    One for Santy for anyone with an interest in warm ups,drills, mobility, strength training, plyometrics or general conditioning

    I got my copy here: https://www.bookdepository.com/Strength-and-Conditioning-for-Endurance-Running-Richard-Blagrove/9781847979872?ref=grid-view&qid=1513011168408&sr=1-1

    Cheaper and free delivery to Ireland too.


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    #80
    Djoucer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Djoucer


    Is there any reliable S&C for dummies training plan that will take a complete novice from week 1 to week 10?

    A lot of the RW plans etc are too advanced/lack any detailed instructions on reps/weights etc


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    #81
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    pconn062 wrote: »
    I got my copy here: https://www.bookdepository.com/Strength-and-Conditioning-for-Endurance-Running-Richard-Blagrove/9781847979872?ref=grid-view&qid=1513011168408&sr=1-1

    Cheaper and free delivery to Ireland too.

    The kindle version is only £9 on Amazon UK if that's any good to people.


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    #82
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    adrian522 wrote: »
    The kindle version is only £9 on Amazon UK if that's any good to people.

    Seen that alright, but a hard copy of this type of book would be way better to be able to flick through.


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    #83
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Testosterscone wrote: »
    Sat through a webinar with the author of this book a few weeks back.
    Reminds me of an article I read a couple of weeks back in relation to Eliud Kipchoge:
    He was extremely inflexible. After an easy morning run (16km in 1hr10mins), I stretched with the group. Most of them were fairly flexible in the hamstrings - standing straight legged and bending over to touch your toes with your knees straight and being able to touch your toes. Eliud was miles off. He was nowhere near touching his toes! They all found it hilarious that he couldn't come close to touching his toes.
    Someone should send him a copy!


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    #84
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Reminds me of an article I read a couple of weeks back in relation to Eliud Kipchoge:


    Someone should send him a copy!

    That's the problem with the internet, one article has probably convinced hundreds of runners to never stretch again. Most of these are runners with very poor form form or minimal knee lift and their range of motion is probably one element restricting this for Kipchoge is certainly doesnt as you see in any of his marathons. Many of us look at the finished article without looking to how they got there for many Kenyans strides, hills, drills etc are all part of there development just as much as the miles the run to and from school.


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    #85
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    but some runners go overboard in the opposite direction - there's no need to be doing yoga or whatever. You need enough range of motion to run correctly, but too much flexibility means you lose tension.


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    #86
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,495 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Testosterscone wrote: »
    That's the problem with the internet, one article has probably convinced hundreds of runners to never stretch again. Most of these are runners with very poor form form or minimal knee lift and their range of motion is probably one element restricting this for Kipchoge is certainly doesnt as you see in any of his marathons. Many of us look at the finished article without looking to how they got there for many Kenyans strides, hills, drills etc are all part of there development just as much as the miles the run to and from school.
    No doubt. While I was in Iten last year, I participated in a couple of S&C classes with Timo Limo, who work in the High Altitude Training Centre. They were a little more frenetic than this example (which is focussed on flexibility, rather than S&C), but it gives you a flavour of the type of flexibility training they perform:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5gATOl2lYk


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    #87
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    Decent podcast for anyone interested and deals with good approach to lifting as a runner and some pretty good advice

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZkCcz_-wVg


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    #88
    denis b
    Registered Users Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭denis b


    Djoucer wrote: »
    Is there any reliable S&C for dummies training plan that will take a complete novice from week 1 to week 10?

    A lot of the RW plans etc are too advanced/lack any detailed instructions on reps/weights etc

    I found this really good for getting started. Very simple with easy adaptations as you progress. Where there was any doubt then "youtube" always helped. I can only say that I felt it made a significant difference to how I felt as a runner.


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