High speed rail Cork - Dublin

According to that Wiki article DSB declined the ICE offer, with high operating & fuel costs, plus modernisation & refurbishment needed. :eek:

Would IE risk buying such units when other operators have declined? :pac:

I've actually seen these units in operation,last summer on the DB local services Lubeck- Fenmarn. They look sleek & modern but it seems appearances can be deceptive!

purplepanda wrote: »

From an engineering point of view it would be interesting to know how complicated converting a bogie to a different gauge would be. It can't just be straightforward replacing the axle with another of a different size gauge can it? :pac:

You simply swap the whole bogie.

purplepanda wrote: »

Maybe IE or NIR have some spare bogies lying around?

From an engineering point of view it would be interesting to know how complicated converting a bogie to a different gauge would be. It can't just be straightforward replacing the axle with another of a different size gauge can it? :pac:

There must be some other mechanical adjustments related to torque & acceleration & speed when using different gauges?

Victor wrote: »

You simply swap the whole bogie.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They do it in Australia all the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogie_exchange

Would it be as straight forward for a tilting train though?

Victor wrote: »

You simply swap the whole bogie.

That's if IE have spare bogies that they could use & adapt.

If not, it would mean having to have the DB ICE bogies converted run on Irish gauge.

That was the exact question I was trying to ask, how easy is it to convert or rebuild a bogie from standard to Irish gauge. Apologies for the confusing question!

xband wrote: »

The aim should be getting to existing MK4 stock up to 200km/h and running some serious express services.

The MK4 was designed to be operated at up to 200kmh with minor adjustments to the braking system as far as I'm aware.

There's no need for TGV/ICE style trains on that route as it's not long enough or populous enough.

The big hold up here is tracks and signalling. Getting the existing, modern fleet doing its maximum speed most of the time would cut journey times a lot.

Agreed, the short distance between stops would make it difficult for Irish non-express trains to reach a speed akin to the latest European records. However 200km/hr running should be the norm as it is in Denmark Sweden and Norway. There should be a 90 minute Dublin-Cork express service without TGV style expense. Normal services should be about 105 mins.

If we go for the electrification in the future 250km/h should be standard with an 80 min Dub-Cork express. There's not much point in running 350km/h trains in Ireland, especially if it costs a bomb to build, rail will still beat road by a long shot if we can get 250 km/h running.

cgcsb wrote: »

Of course those are all issues to be solved by incremental improvements of the mainline rail in Ireland. We should have a dedicated budget for incremental improvements every year.

That's pretty much what is happening.


There will be another set of improvement works this year on the Dublin-Cork line, continuing the work already carried out in 2015.

xband wrote: »

Issue a it's a very low density development pattern. The population is small but it's not that small! There are over 6 million of us on this island.

The major issue is trains serve stations. Roads serve scattered houses.

An issue for what?

Not really that much of an issue for anything. There's less density between the Swedish Cities and they still manage 200km/h between the main cities on electrified lines.

monument wrote: »

Do business people live in train stations in other countries? Does your experience extend to that?

And with Dublin, more than a million people are less than an hour away from Hueston. Most well within an hour. And with a Cork-Dublin-Belfast high speed rail line it would be madness not to also serve Dublin airport too, making a station and a second transport hub closer to more people.

Where would anybody be taking a 45 minute taxi trip in Cork? There's a lot of business and residential areas well under that time.

Railways were , in Ireland , primarily designed to carry freight , particularly live cattle. The pattern of lines was a function of 19th century population dispersals, where due to lack of local transport, business and people tended to be closer together in a given area. Dublin was well confined within the canals by the time the railway arrived.

Today , freight plays no part on Irish railways, populations and business are spread widely due to the motor car and good roads.

High speed trains , add nothing to the mix , very few routes even dublin cork, can withstand a daily multi train non stop service, hence dwell times at immediate stations are fixed and become a greater proportion of the total travel time .

Furthermore , unless you build a whole parallel rail network, you create enormous pathing issues mixing high speed with medium speed passanger and low speed commuter services . This is dramatically illustrated on the WCML in the uk, where the orgiinally high design speeds for virgin trains simply could not be delivered, primarily due to pathing issues associated with a 19th rail alignment

Anyone doing a door to door journey today where , each door is away from a station , will know rail is a joke. Someone living say in stillorgan will be half way to cork or Belfast by the time they get to hueston. They have a new , mostly congestion free motorway network and the comforts of modern cars to whisk them to their destination.

Irish rail needs to stop trying to compete on journey times , it should compete on the " pleasure of the experience " , proper coaching stock , with window aligned comfy seats , not buses on rails , catering , luxury etc. This would attract the " leisure " traveller( ie time flexible ) and certain business class types. ( as the very successful city gold demonstrated ) speed needs to be good, ( 80-100 mph) but no more.

Rather then build high speed electric rail , why not have giant electric car rentals" stations" on the outskirts of Dublin, you drive there , swop to a ready EV , whizz down near empty motorways , do your business and return. Green , environmentally concious and practical.

Now matter what you wish for, you can't roll back time or progress. Personal transport , it's road network and the dispersal patterns associated with both are here to stay , certainly for multiple generations. In reality rail had a very short " heyday " , roughly from about 1890 , to the 1920s in Ireland where they had an unchallenged marketplace , even then in Ireland they struggled financially. Today there are an economic basket case outside Dublin.

monument wrote: »

The experance today of rail or motorways and the design of the rail network 100 years or more ago has little relevance to a high-speed offering using a partly or totally new route.

I've already said we could be taking about an offering which is up to 50 years away. Although that might start counting down quicker when we start paying our EU fines for not meeting our carbon reduction targets.

There are weak arguments against high-speed rail in less car dominated areas, so we are going to get then here. But the business men living in train stations and the unrealistic travel times to/from stations shows how out of touch you are on potential high-speed rail or blinded by the issue.

It's nice to think the battery problem will be solved for electric cars etc but until it actually is we're still talking about a dirty production process and a limited supply. Even if those issues are solved, we're still taking about motorway capacity issues in the mid to long term (and, in some cases, already clearly in the short term).

With respect, its is you who are blind, because you are min/maxing the arguments to suit your perspective


lets break down your contentions

design of the rail network 100 years or more ago has little relevance to a high-speed offering using a partly or totally new route.

I would contend it has everything thing to do with it. Even in the UK, with a vastly more successful railway system, they are baulking at the costs of HS2.
Therefore its entirely unrealistic to suggest that Ireland will ever build dedicated high speed train routes. We can hardly build an airport connection , never mind a HS dedicated rail link to cork .

Hence any higher speeds have to be accommodated with the gauge structure of the existing victorian railway system. Equally such rails are unlikely to be dedicated to high speed traffic exclusively , so the pathing difficulties ( that exist today on IE) will be a huge issue. I presume you understand what I mean by pathing issues


Now lets examine the swedish high sped rail system ( which is mentioned here in glowing terms) , which currently is running at 200kmph

The X2 runs between Stockholm, Gothenberg and Malmo, These have metropolitan populations of approx 2.2million, 1million, and 500,000 respectively

Contrast that Ireland , Dublin ( 1.5 million in a radius of less then one hour of centre) , Cork 280,000 Belfast 673,000,

( in Dublin given the distance, the population available to rail is wildly overstated, as it is unreasonable to postulate that commuters, living in Kildare, or wicklow will travel east or north , away from cork to catch a train back south )

Also distances in Sweden are significantly greater , Stockholm Gothenberg is close to 500 km of rail distance, whereas Cork is under 200Km and Belfast even less.


Hence there is no real comparison between the two countries or their raill systems

At present Sweden has actually not been able to increase many trains above 200Km, due to signalling systems and a decision on whether to go to a dedicated high speed rail route.

But the business men living in train stations and the unrealistic travel times to/from stations shows how out of touch you are on potential high-speed rail or blinded by the issue.

You seem blinded, If you look at numbers being carried on Dublin Cork and Dublin Belfast, you will see that IE is simply irrelevant to the vast vast majority of travellers between those cities, this is especially true of Dublin Belfast. Most business have voted with their BMWs and no longer use any rail at all. ( as the fall off of IEs business class has shown)

It's nice to think the battery problem will be solved for electric cars etc but until it actually is we're still talking about a dirty production process and a limited supply.)

Today we have 450km battery only cars, that outperform any petrol in speed and acceleration and comfort, these are no milk floats ( Tesla Model X) , we have family sized EVs ;like the 2016 Leaf that can do Dublin cork in one charge ( 200km range) ( at a cost of 1 euro 80 cents ) . There is actually a massive glut of over supply of lithium batteries and factories at the moment

The production process, I would argue is a lot cleaner , then building ( and running ) trains

as for supply there are 5 major suppliers, today of BEVs ( true EVs not hybrids) , BMW, VW, Nissan, Tesla, and Renault. Within 5 years that number will triple, with all major manufacturers having announced plans for BEV releases

Even if those issues are solved, we're still taking about motorway capacity issues in the mid to long term (and, in some cases, already clearly in the short term)

There is no capacity issues on our motorways, with the exception of the M50, which is primarily down to bad engineering decisions.

The rest of the country is comparatively empty by european standards and is now serviced by new high standard motorways, and such motorway programmes continues apace, with M11 extensions, Gort etc

Anyone who drives outside dublin , knows the road system is a joy to behold, as the massive falloff in Dublin Galway rail traffic as shown

The future is private electric personal transport, Ireland is uniquely suited, as we are increasing our supply of renewal energy, our distances are short , which suit battery cars and our temperature climate and good empty motorways are ideal environments for such use. There si simply NO going back to 19th century patterns of transport usage

Im sorry , There is simply no justification for intercity ( as opposed to commuter ) services in ireland at all , in my view. Never mind an expensive limited use white elephant of electrified high( er) speed trains, running to comparatively small population centres, already served by underutilised motorways

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

A few corrections.
Cork: 480,000 metropolitan population

Don't you mean 280,000? The entire county is only 519,000.

The boreen

While inadequate, it is not a boreen.

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I actually meant 400.
This number taken from wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_(city)
Having investigated further I'm not sure if this is correct: http://www.cso.ie/multiquicktables/quickTables.aspx?id=cna23. Either way, I'll admit 480,000 is incorrect, apologies.

On the N20, I think "inadequate" is not enough to describe the type of vehicle-damaging conditions on sections of that road. In the Buttevant area, in particular, where you have to navigate large holes in the road, I don't think "boreen" is too far off the mark.

The M20 will ultimately solve it