GAME in serious trouble

Meesared · 01-03-2012 4:28pm

Blowfish wrote: »

Actually, I think you are underestimating it. The average download speed currently stands at 8.28Mbps for Ireland. For a 6gb file, that's about an hour and a half.

Services like Steam currently will preload games for you automatically in the background several days before the release date if you preorder. This means that you end up being able to play just a couple of minutes after the midnight release.

Given that we are talking about 5 years down the line when download speeds will have increased even more, it's not a difficult thing to imagine for Microsoft/Sony to start pushing digital purchases in a big big way as it both reduces piracy and gives them pretty much total control over distribution.

There is still massive areas of the country that can't get proper broadband at all so i think you are overestimating things here

Blowfish · 01-03-2012 4:56pm

Meesared wrote: »

There is still massive areas of the country that can't get proper broadband at all so i think you are overestimating things here

Which make up a minority of the population and who still have access to online retailers.

AceCard Jones wrote: »

I'd rather physical media even if my Broadband speed was the best in the country.

The point is, like it or not, it's going to happen. Microsoft and Sony are both huge game publishers. they'll stand to benefit immensely if they can control distribution completely for their consoles and cut out the bricks and mortar shops. Hell, it's already started on handheld consoles with the Vita.

Pacing Mule · 01-03-2012 5:05pm

There will always be a demand for bricks and mortar shops.

Digitial distribution isn't an option for everyone as the infrastructure isn't there. Some people simply want a physical copy in their hands regardless of the trade in scenario. (which I don't believe any console manufacturer will implement console wide - it would be commercial suicide to do it) Some people simply won't shop online ever. People buying gifts want to havnd over a physical game not a code for a download. On top of that there will always be a need for a store to buy the actual console itself.

Now whether or not that demand will ultimately be filled by a supermarket or large toy stores like Smyths etc remains to be seen but I do think there will be room in the market for one games retailler to survive the current what appears to be retail bloodbath.

Blowfish · 01-03-2012 5:29pm

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

There will always be a demand for bricks and mortar shops.

Sure, but it'll be limited to one or two small independent 'niche' shops in the larger cities, just like how shops that sell 12" vinyl records or cassettes are now.

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Some people simply want a physical copy in their hands regardless of the trade in scenario. ... Some people simply won't shop online ever. People buying gifts want to havnd over a physical game not a code for a download.

This will change. Lots of people preferred Vinyl and didn't want to switch. This didn't stop it becoming swiftly outmoded to the point of becoming a niche.

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

On top of that there will always be a need for a store to buy the actual console itself.

Why? Buying consumer electronics online is pretty much the norm these days, especially when it comes to something like a console which has an extremely limited range of options.

Pacing Mule · 01-03-2012 5:45pm

Blowfish wrote: »

Sure, but it'll be limited to one or two small independent 'niche' shops in the larger cities, just like how shops that sell 12" vinyl records or cassettes are now.

Not a like with like comparison IMO. Vinyls and Cassette are the equivilent of retro games like SNES and Gamecube etc. It's a specialised market for hardcore enthusiasts which was superceeded by CD's whose own market share has been impacted by digital. The main stream choice is digital or CD not digital or vinyl.

Blowfish wrote: »

This will change. Lots of people preferred Vinyl and didn't want to switch. This didn't stop it becoming swiftly outmoded to the point of becoming a niche.

Again not a like with like comparison. People didn't leave Vinyl for digital. They left Vinyl for Cassette and then ultimately CD but these were physical replacements and technological advancements of a physical format.

Blowfish wrote: »

Why? Buying consumer electronics online is pretty much the norm these days, especially when it comes to something like a console which has an extremely limited range of options.

For the same reason there is still Power City, Currys, Harvey Normans etc selling TVs, Cookers, Washing Machines etc there will be a lot of people who won't buy big ticket items online - if nothing else for the fact they have a person and place to go to if a fault develops.

AceCard Jones · 01-03-2012 7:06pm

@Blowfish, you quoted my personal preference but none of my points against why a digital majority future isn't possible for a long time yet.

* Lots of people prefer physical media whether you think it's a small amount or not.

*As has been pointed out numerous times the infrastructure isn't there and the way this country approaches broadband upgrades and even introduction, it won't be for a long time. So if it did happen we wouldn't get a look in.

*You mentioned Vita, the PSP GO died on it's arse so don't go jumping the gun yet. The memory cards for Vita cost a small fortune so if you wanted all your games on the system you'd spend horrid amounts of money for the pleasure. Give me a physical copy any day.

*Even if we had the speed, most ISPs enforce a download limit so if when the next batch of consoles come about we're expected to download 10-25GB a game we'd go over our limits in no time.

*Like it or not the average joe makes up a lot of the current gaming market, they may not ever want to spend full price for a game on release, or may want to borrow and lend to/from friends or bring games to each others houses etc, or buy second hand or trade in their bought new games. They won't want to pay 10 quid more than it used to be available for in a shop to buy from Sony or Microsoft directly. Even now the Games on Demand service from XBL Marketplace and PSN Store are a piss take. Some 20-30 euro more expensive. Halo Reach and COD Black Ops are 69.99 ffs!

On the whole I disagree with you completely, and if you end up being right I'll cry!

Pacing Mule · 01-03-2012 7:27pm

AceCard Jones wrote: »

Even now the Games on Demand service from XBL Marketplace and PSN Store are a piss take. Some 20-30 euro more expensive. Halo Reach and COD Black Ops are 69.99 ffs!

This is the point that most people don't realise. Halo Reach, Gears 3 etc have an RRP of €69.99 with most other top titles being priced €59.99 - €64.99 and a corresponding cost price to the retaillers. A lot of the time the retail store is selling the game cheaper than they are buying it in. (relying on pre owned game sales for profit) Publishers think that their game is worth €70 and that's why it is priced that high on XBL Marketplace.

This price seems strange here in Ireland and the UK because the market here is accustomed to a lot cheaper prices but over on the continent you will find the game prices there are a lot closer to the €65 - €70 the publishers think the game is worth.

In it's simplest form no retailers = publishers recommended pricing for downloading games = a lot higher prices than have been charged here over the past few years. (It's a seperate debate entirely whether or not prices will be dropped if no pre owned market exists but indications are that they would not be)

Oafley Jones · 01-03-2012 8:28pm

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

This is the point that most people don't realise. Halo Reach, Gears 3 etc have an RRP of €69.99 with most other top titles being priced €59.99 - €64.99 and a corresponding cost price to the retaillers. A lot of the time the retail store is selling the game cheaper than they are buying it in. (relying on pre owned game sales for profit) Publishers think that their game is worth €70 and that's why it is priced that high on XBL Marketplace.

This price seems strange here in Ireland and the UK because the market here is accustomed to a lot cheaper prices but over on the continent you will find the game prices there are a lot closer to the €65 - €70 the publishers think the game is worth.

None of this sounds even remotely correct to me, could you please back it up?

Nabber · 01-03-2012 8:46pm

Digital sales is the way to go.
This keep the shops and shops will always be needed is nonsense. I'm not saying it will happen tomorrow, but it will happen.

No business can last for ever unless it changes to demand. Game should have been looking to go digital along time ago.

People said IPv4 is the answer, we'll never need more than 4billion IP address. How wrong where they?

For those people who like to walk into a shop and 'feel' the game. There just aren't enough of yoou guys to keep the dream alive.
If digital prices are 50% less, I'm sure the 'feel' of the game maybe questioned.

It's not sad when a business closes because demand falls, that's just capitalism. It's only sad if the workers in the shop can't find another job.

Pacing Mule · 01-03-2012 8:49pm

Oafley Jones wrote: »

None of this sounds even remotely correct to me, could you please back it up?

Hang on until I change clothes ...

super_furry · 01-03-2012 8:53pm

As someone who has moved house three times in the last three years, I never want to buy another physical game again. Given the choice, I'd go for digital everytime. Moving my physical collections is a massive, massive pain in the arse not to mention the ammount of space it takes up.

Meanwhile I can just pack up my laptop knowing that my 120-odd Steam games are all in there.

AceCard Jones · 01-03-2012 8:55pm

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

This is the point that most people don't realise. Halo Reach, Gears 3 etc have an RRP of €69.99 with most other top titles being priced €59.99 - €64.99 and a corresponding cost price to the retaillers. A lot of the time the retail store is selling the game cheaper than they are buying it in. (relying on pre owned game sales for profit) Publishers think that their game is worth €70 and that's why it is priced that high on XBL Marketplace.

This price seems strange here in Ireland and the UK because the market here is accustomed to a lot cheaper prices but over on the continent you will find the game prices there are a lot closer to the €65 - €70 the publishers think the game is worth.

In it's simplest form no retailers = publishers recommended pricing for downloading games = a lot higher prices than have been charged here over the past few years. (It's a seperate debate entirely whether or not prices will be dropped if no pre owned market exists but indications are that they would not be)

Then how do online retailers turn a profit? Since they don't take trade ins and sell them again?

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 01-03-2012 9:00pm

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Hang on until I change clothes ...

And changed I am.

I am speaking from relevant experience. There are times it is cheaper for us to buy stock in the local shopping centre than it is to buy it through official channels. The sale prices you see at retail now are at times lower than the cost price charged by the publishers. Fifa 12 for example was costing over €50 to buy in yet was being sold for €49.99. The RRP was €59.99 - €64.99. You can come and see our invoices if you don't believe me. Look at adverts for games on TV and you will see the suggested sales prices (Gears 3 and Halo Reach adverts both showed the RRP of €69.99)

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 01-03-2012 9:06pm

AceCard Jones wrote: »

Then how do online retailers turn a profit? Since they don't take trade ins and sell them again?

The majority of the larger / cheaper online retailers you see in the marketplace now are based outside of the EU - most likely in Jersey. Therefore their sales price does not include VAT - add 23% to their sales price and they aren't as low priced as they appear. They have profit built into their pricing (Amazon are an exception - their prices include Irish VAT but their buying power and discounts given by publishers are huge)

Quick Edit - My views posted as pageant messiah are my personal views and should not be taken as being a statement on behalf of Gamesnash

Orim · 01-03-2012 9:08pm

AceCard Jones wrote: »

Then how do online retailers turn a profit? Since they don't take trade ins and sell them again?

Lower overheads due to no physical shops etc. and afaik most of the online retailers are based in places like Jersey and what not where they can avoid a lot of taxes.

Sabre Man · 01-03-2012 9:29pm

Gamesnash.ie: Pat wrote: »

Fifa 12 for example was costing over €50 to buy in yet was being sold for €49.99.

Why did you sell at a loss?

I will buy physical copies as long as possible. I like my boxes and instruction leaflets. Manuals in PDF files just don't do it for me.

As a PC gamer since 1992 I find less and less interesting games in high street shops. They're just too console focused for me, so I usually shop online. I visit Game in Cork every now and then but things just aren't like they used to be.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 01-03-2012 9:45pm

Sabre Man wrote: »

Why did you sell at a loss?

Same reason as always. (although at release we were priced a little higher than €49.99)

To hold onto our customers who would have perceived us as attempting to rip them off if we didn't. But we're the same as the other retailers in the current market. The prices here are artificially low - but they have been so low for so long that the perceived value of the game has now dropped. When a retailer prices close to RRP now they are seen as ripping people off and the customer takes their business elsewhere. (See some of the posts earlier in this thread about Games pricing and you will see an example)

Grumpypants · 01-03-2012 9:55pm

Gamesnash.ie: Pat wrote: »

The majority of the larger / cheaper online retailers you see in the marketplace now are based outside of the EU - most likely in Jersey. Therefore their sales price does not include VAT - add 23% to their sales price and they aren't as low priced as they appear. They have profit built into their pricing (Amazon are an exception - their prices include Irish VAT but their buying power and discounts given by publishers are huge)

Quick Edit - My views posted as pageant messiah are my personal views and should not be taken as being a statement on behalf of Gamesnash

I've been banging on about the artificially low price of games brand new in stores when ever people talk down the used market. The new games market isnt a profit maker for retail, it's the used market that has allowed them to make money.

When that goes (in perhaps the next generation) people will get a nasty shock when games are released closer to the 70 euro mark with the tag line "development costs are much higher on this platform" used to justify it.

Jester252 · 01-03-2012 9:56pm

Surely they would get discounts when buying in bulk?

LH Pathe · 02-03-2012 12:30am

Gamesnash.ie: Pat wrote: »

When a retailer prices close to RRP now they are seen as ripping people off and the customer takes their business elsewhere. (See some of the posts earlier in this thread about Games pricing and you will see an example)

I always buy my psn credit off your site to purchase titles via my favoured method where possible so I am ironically still keeping you in business. €100 a month or what ain't bad

Mr E · 05-03-2012 11:26am

GAME bosses are considering whether to "shut up shop" sooner rather than later, reports have suggested. The struggling retailer's inability to stock Electronic Arts releases such as Mass Effect 3 means that it stands to lose out on £2.5m in profit. Sources suggest that the firm's bosses are considering closing "rather than rack up more losses", reports The Daily Express.

http://www.digitalspy.ie/gaming/news/a369315/game-bosses-to-shut-up-shop-to-avoid-more-losses.html

Ouch.

Sephiroth_dude · 05-03-2012 11:43am

Sabre Man wrote: »

Why did you sell at a loss?

I will buy physical copies as long as possible. I like my boxes and instruction leaflets. Manuals in PDF files just don't do it for me.

As a PC gamer since 1992 I find less and less interesting games in high street shops. They're just too console focused for me, so I usually shop online. I visit Game in Cork every now and then but things just aren't like they used to be.

Same Here!

Mr E wrote: »

http://www.digitalspy.ie/gaming/news/a369315/game-bosses-to-shut-up-shop-to-avoid-more-losses.html

Ouch.

oh dear

Grumpypants · 05-03-2012 12:58pm

Ive over a hundred euro on a game card that i need to spend before they close but there is nothing out yet i can spend it on.

lasersquad · 05-03-2012 1:03pm

Sabre Man wrote: »

I will buy physical copies as long as possible.

Amen.

I remember Game from my London days - was always like "wtf shops in there?". Even before online sales changed the market they were always out-competed: the megastores like HMV were always quicker with the deals on new releases and on used games front - when they finally wised up to that - they were beaten hands down by then all-conquering Cex.

It seems to me they`ve been just too...bland, like, without character like Cex and without the clout of the big boys. Think too many suits, too less gamers behind their vision, or lack thereof.

And there wasn`t even Gamestop to compete with, sheeesh.

ShadowHearth · 05-03-2012 3:18pm

Gamesnash.ie: Pat wrote: »

Same reason as always. (although at release we were priced a little higher than €49.99)

To hold onto our customers who would have perceived us as attempting to rip them off if we didn't. But we're the same as the other retailers in the current market. The prices here are artificially low - but they have been so low for so long that the perceived value of the game has now dropped. When a retailer prices close to RRP now they are seen as ripping people off and the customer takes their business elsewhere. (See some of the posts earlier in this thread about Games pricing and you will see an example)

as you are our window to retailers i would like to ask you a question. ( if you dont mind ).

i am realy getting along well with lads in my local gamestop. i always buy my brand new releases and consoles with them. not because its gamestop, but because i like that shop and staff.
we talked a bit about brand new games. and he said that they making no money on selling PS vitas, and that from any brand new game gamestop makes only 2-5eu. in fact it is just not profitable for them to sell new games at all. the only thing that keeps them a float are used games.
Now i am no expert, but i could really believe that. Would that really mean a death for all high street games shop if they will make even worse second hand protection, which is rumored to be in new gen consoles? i presume that would effect you too?
would that really mean that games will go to 70-80eu mark so that retailer would make any sort of money or just pure death to anything that is not online?

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 05-03-2012 6:36pm

ShadowHearth wrote: »

as you are our window to retailers i would like to ask you a question. ( if you dont mind ).

i am realy getting along well with lads in my local gamestop. i always buy my brand new releases and consoles with them. not because its gamestop, but because i like that shop and staff.
we talked a bit about brand new games. and he said that they making no money on selling PS vitas, and that from any brand new game gamestop makes only 2-5eu. in fact it is just not profitable for them to sell new games at all. the only thing that keeps them a float are used games.
Now i am no expert, but i could really believe that. Would that really mean a death for all high street games shop if they will make even worse second hand protection, which is rumored to be in new gen consoles? i presume that would effect you too?
would that really mean that games will go to 70-80eu mark so that retailer would make any sort of money or just pure death to anything that is not online?

Hi - don't mind at all - it's one of the reasons we have a presence here on boards so ask away !

Everything you've said above is accurate. I'd even go as far to say that the picture they painted may even be worse than 2-5 euro profits. It certainly is for us anyway

Our initial cost price of the PS Vita for example turned out to be dearer than the actual RRP. I had to point out that the VAT rate had gone up 2% which had made the cost price + VAT dearer than the RRP. This got us a small price decrease.

Pre owned game sales are keeping games retaillers in operation. If they are removed from the equation altogether you will absolutely see new game prices being raised at retail here by €10 at least as those are the margins needed to operate a viable retail business. That said if demand drops off because of the price increase making the stores unviable then yep you will see death to specialist games retailers trading on the high street.

chrislad · 05-03-2012 6:38pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

Ive over a hundred euro on a game card that i need to spend before they close but there is nothing out yet i can spend it on.

Buy copies of new releases, trade them in for pre-orders at GameStop to get 25% extra free. You'll probably lose some value but better than losing it all.

ShadowHearth · 05-03-2012 6:49pm

Gamesnash.ie: Pat wrote: »

Hi - don't mind at all - it's one of the reasons we have a presence here on boards so ask away !

Everything you've said above is accurate. I'd even go as far to say that the picture they painted may even be worse than 2-5 euro profits. It certainly is for us anyway Our initial cost price of the PS Vita for example turned out to be dearer than the actual RRP. I had to point out that the VAT rate had gone up 2% which had made the cost price + VAT dearer than the RRP. This got us a small price decrease.

Pre owned game sales are keeping games retaillers in operation. If they are removed from the equation altogether you will absolutely see new game prices being raised at retail here by €10 at least as those are the margins needed to operate a viable retail business. That said if demand drops off because of the price increase making the stores unviable then yep you will see death to specialist games retailers trading on the high street.

This quite shocking. Developers are bitching so much about second hand sales, but they are not giving anything to retailers. If they make only 3-4eu per game and them they have to pay wages, deleveries, storage, electricity, then I am not surprised most of retailers were pushed in to second hand ge market!
It's like scratch my back and I will scratch yours, but looks like publishers forgot their part of the deal. I know someone will run in and scratch my face for saying this, but publishers/developers are to blame for second hand sales too.

the groutch · 05-03-2012 6:49pm

Mr E wrote: »

http://www.digitalspy.ie/gaming/news/a369315/game-bosses-to-shut-up-shop-to-avoid-more-losses.html

Ouch.

and it's only about 3 or 4 years ago they bought all the Zavvi shops

Gamesnash.ie: Pat · 05-03-2012 6:49pm

Grumpypants wrote: »

Ive over a hundred euro on a game card that i need to spend before they close but there is nothing out yet i can spend it on.

Here's an option for you - go in and buy PSN credit or microsoft point cards / monthly subs. Whatever breakdown gets you nearest to the credit you have. Send the cards themselves into us and we will credit your gamesnash account with the full retail price from our site (for email dispatching) That way you get to transfer your credit / protect it from a Game liquidation for the price of the postage into us. PSN cards and microsoft points won't depreciate like games so we are happy to do this. You can use the credit whenever you want in the future.

Just to be 100% clear I am not saying that Game will liquadate with voucher holders being left as creditors but if anyone feels that this may happen them and are in the same situation to yourself then consider us an insurance policy.

GAME in serious trouble

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