I have an idea for an app...

The Corinthian · 16-04-2014 8:46pm

Evil Phil wrote: »

Let me clarify: As developer (or future CTO) I was not only going to be developing the application, but was also doing a "developing' a lot other stuff.

I understand that. I was just pointing out that even on a limited and simplistic basis the disparity is pretty self evident.

I turned down one such 'offer' a few years back on a simelar basis. After their pitch, I asked them what they were bringing to the party apart from their 'idea'. After a few minutes of faffing about, I wished them the best of luck in their new venture.

Vanity with a healthy dose of greed, TBH.

Colonel Panic · 17-04-2014 12:55am

I am the first to attack "Not to give too much away..." posts, but I've worked on prototypes with like minded friends, albeit people with the design and business skills I lack and I've done it for free. I *get* the commercial aspect, but I just want to build systems in exchange for money.

Some of these things have have money, some have not.

My usual agreement when I go into these things eyes open is that any technology developed is mine unless we get financial backing. This way, I think I minimise being stuck by promises of equity, because all technology is effectively in escrow, but I also know the people I've worked with and have got tangible specs and timelines.

Sparks · 17-04-2014 1:03pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Vanity with a healthy dose of greed, TBH.

It is deeply depressing how commonplace that is and how unhealthy the dose usually is

Sparks · 17-04-2014 1:04pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

My usual agreement when I go into these things

Here's the kicker - if these are friends, or if this starts informally, there's a temptation to not get that in writing.

Should you succumb to that temptation, you *will* wind up burnt as a result. That's a lesson best learnt by looking at others rather than direct experience...

Evil Phil · 17-04-2014 5:49pm

That's a good idea Panic, I'm going to use that in future, but with it in a contract ala Sparks suggestion.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 18-04-2014 10:53pm

So what's the consensus on this, what is the correct format for someone to procure the services of a developer without getting sarcastic replies?

As someone who has used the services of designers and developer on a number of occasions, a recurring observation that I notice on this forum and on creative Ireland is that I know of no other profession that openly criticizes it's customers i.e. the people who buy your services than freelance developers and designers. Take a glance over on the taxation and legal forums and nearly every thread is someone looking for free advice yet you don't see the same level of put downs as we do here. Also, when an OP creates a thread asking a question, the regular contributors seem to have the expectation is that posters should provide a detailed spec and road-map of their project is just ridiculous. It's the equivalent of a solicitor expecting the client to draft a case file before he'll look at the case and then scoff at the client for not knowing how to prepare a case file.

Another bugbear of mine when dealing with designers/developers, and this not confined to freelancers but also firms, is that you approach them about a project and the first words out of their mouth is "what's the budget?". The only other people who operate on this basis are second hand car dealers, no other profession prices on this basis. I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it. Rule number 1 when buying something is you don't say what your budget is yet the expectation is that I should tell you what my budget is before you even speak to me, so if I say my budget is €10k then that's what it's going to cost regardless of whether that's what it cost to build.

fergalr · 18-04-2014 11:34pm

Tristan CoolS Dust:

You raise some legitimate points in your thread - let me first make sure to acknowledge that, before responding in order.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

So what's the consensus on this, what is the correct format for someone to procure the services of a developer without getting sarcastic replies?

Quote a serious budget, in line with roughly what your project will cost - or agree to pay a substantial hourly rate without quibbling (anything in line with what a solicitor charges should be fine).
I'm willing to bet that if you do either of those 2 things, you will get legit responses very quickly.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

As someone who has used the services of designers and developer on a number of occasions, a recurring observation that I notice on this forum and on creative Ireland is that I know of no other profession that openly criticizes it's customers i.e. the people who buy your services than freelance developers and designers.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Take a glance over on the taxation and legal forums and nearly every thread is someone looking for free advice yet you don't see the same level of put downs as we do here.

Put downs aren't good, certainly.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Also, when an OP creates a thread asking a question, the regular contributors seem to have the expectation is that posters should provide a detailed spec and road-map of their project is just ridiculous. It's the equivalent of a solicitor expecting the client to draft a case file before he'll look at the case and then scoff at the client for not knowing how to prepare a case file.
Another bugbear of mine when dealing with designers/developers, and this not confined to freelancers but also firms, is that you approach them about a project and the first words out of their mouth is "what's the budget?". The only other people who operate on this basis are second hand car dealers, no other profession prices on this basis. I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it. Rule number 1 when buying something is you don't say what your budget is yet the expectation is that I should tell you what my budget is before you even speak to me, so if I say my budget is €10k then that's what it's going to cost regardless of whether that's what it cost to build.

The reason that people are asking you what your budget is, is to try and understand whether you have any idea the rough ballpark of what your project will cost you.

If you ask a solicitor how much it'll cost you to defend your suit, they will not tell you. They might quote a very high daily or hourly rate. They might have some idea, for suits similar to ones they've fought before, but if you just ask for 'a lawsuit' in general; well, they might not laugh at you, but you won't get very far either.

Go to construction engineer, and ask them how much a bridge will cost, and you'll see something similar.

In fact, try find a construction engineer on an internet forum taking jobs from members of the public - it probably wont be easy.

Even after that, the big difference is, that people won't go to a civil engineer with 500 euro and ask for a mile long suspension bridge. People just don't do that, because it wastes everyones time. have a meeting with a civil engineer, about a bridge want built. If you actually get a meeting with them, have a good chat with them, and at the end, when you get around to discussing the budget, tell them its 500 euro, and see what happens.

People regularly do the equivalent for software projects.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it.

And what happens when the lawsuit takes longer than the solicitor estimates? Who pays, them or you?
Or, when, after day 2, you decide that actually you wanted to sue under european law instead? You'll find that they don't stick with the fixed price they quoted, and you are generally on an hourly rate, and that any change late in the process drastically increases the fees.

Engineers don't tend to build bridges on fixed prices either - projects regularly blow the budget.

And there's a sense in which bridges are more predictable than software projects.

So, basically, the problem is that most people have zero idea of how to price software.
Yet they want software. Often software that costs e1,000,000+ to develop, when they have e500.

As a result, you get a lot of mismatched expectations, time gets wasted, people get upset etc.
Its very difficult to solve.

There's lots of ways of avoiding that scenario - one way is to ban threads with people looking for developers. As we've been discussing, that's a little punitive - so people suggested allowing projects that come with a spec, so that developers could quickly identify a ballpark figure - but you don't seem to like that?

How would you solve it instead?

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup · 18-04-2014 11:44pm

good points from fergal. i'll add this one

I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it.

devs ask for the budget to filter out the idiots. the explosion of the app econonomy is real, it's all over the news and people are hearing of the billion dollar buyouts. this in turn attracts the idiots who thinks it's a get rich quick scheme. they usually have no money and are clueless. you want to get rid of them quick before they waste more of your time. these kind of people don't hear of bridges being bought out and don't go to engineers (real engineers!) with ridiculously low budgets.

Sparks · 18-04-2014 11:50pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

So what's the consensus on this, what is the correct format for someone to procure the services of a developer without getting sarcastic replies?

Personally, I lean towards the process where you phone or email a firm or developer and ask them to quote for the job you have in mind.

As someone who has used the services of designers and developer on a number of occasions, a recurring observation that I notice on this forum and on creative Ireland is that I know of no other profession that openly criticizes it's customers i.e. the people who buy your services than freelance developers and designers.

In all seriousness, have you ever considered that there could be a very good reason why, if everyone in the industry is doing so? I mean, one, two, ten examples, that could be random chance, but everyone?

Take a glance over on the taxation and legal forums and nearly every thread is someone looking for free advice yet you don't see the same level of put downs as we do here.

That's actually the exact opposite of the facts of the matter.

From the charter of the Legal forum:

1. No legal advice can be sought or given on this forum.

And in case having it as rule one wasn't sufficient, they go into detail:

No legal advice
You may not seek or give legal advice on this forum. All comments on this forum are to be regarded as the personal views of the individuals posting. Nothing posted in this forum is to be construed as legally accurate.

Legal discussion is permitted. However, requests for legal advice or the provision of legal advice is not. A request for legal advice is defined as a specific request for legal advice, assistance or interpretation which is or is intended to be applicable to a specified real-life scenario. The provision of legal advice is defined as the giving of legal advice, assistance or interpretation which is or is intended to be applicable to a specified real-life scenario.
...
The discussion and exploration of hypothetical legal scenarios is permitted and encouraged. However, it is not permitted to invent a hypothetical scenario which mirrors an actual real-life scenario in order to request legal advice or in order to provide legal advice. Significant moderation discretion will be exercised in this regard.

And from the Taxation forum charter:

Disclaimer: This is not a legal/tax/accountancy advice forum. Any opinion offered, in any guise, is to be taken as opinion, and nothing else. That means that if somebody offers a particular course of action, this is not to be thought of as legal advice. In the event that a poster says he is qualified to give legal advice, neither Boards.ie Ltd., nor any of its affiliates, accept any liability for any loss or damage arising therefrom. In other words, members can assume that nobody who posts in this forum is qualified to give legal/tax/accountancy advice. BY POSTING IN OR READING FROM THIS FORUM, YOU AGREE TO THIS DISCLAIMER. Any legal/tax/accountancy advice sought or given will result in an immediate week long ban. Second offences result in an indefinite ban.

...

This is NOT a free advice shop or for people to get nixers. Specific queries are to go to professionals and I have a track record of shunting people along. Please don't even try.

Both cases are interesting though - a forum of professionals, run for professionals, to discuss their profession, stating categorically in the rules that they don't do free work. Perhaps because that's a big part of what "professional" refers to, if I can be blunt here.

Also, when an OP creates a thread asking a question, the regular contributors seem to have the expectation is that posters should provide a detailed spec and road-map of their project is just ridiculous. It's the equivalent of a solicitor expecting the client to draft a case file before he'll look at the case and then scoff at the client for not knowing how to prepare a case file.

Actually, that analogy is rather off the mark, since no solicitor would sit down to even talk to you on the phone for five minutes about your case without a meter running.

Another bugbear of mine when dealing with designers/developers, and this not confined to freelancers but also firms, is that you approach them about a project and the first words out of their mouth is "what's the budget?". The only other people who operate on this basis are second hand car dealers, no other profession prices on this basis.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous in the extreme. EVERY profession does this in one way or another. Solicitors and other charge-by-the-hour professionals will charge by the hour (including preparation of their equivalents of quotes, like the section 67 letters for solicitors). Architects, engineers and other professionals who work on a project basis want to know the budget right from the offing because it is a fundamental piece of the specification for the work. You want to do X. Solutions 1, 2 and 3 cost different amounts, take different amounts of time and so forth. The budget is an immensely important piece of information for those professionals when preparing tenders and quotes.

I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it.

That's a very unlikely scenario as if you could tell them what you needed with the degree of accuracy required that they didn't need a budget, you'd probably be qualified or experienced in their profession. Except for solicitors, who charge by the hour and have slightly different rules, but even there for large cases, they're going to have a version of the budget conversation too (when they say "this will cost X, do you want to proceed").

Rule number 1 when buying something is you don't say what your budget is yet the expectation is that I should tell you what my budget is before you even speak to me, so if I say my budget is €10k then that's what it's going to cost regardless of whether that's what it cost to build.

I promise you, if that is how you think when hiring a professional, and you want free work done, you will be regarded by the professionals you approach in a very poor light indeed.
Which perhaps speaks to the question you asked at the start about why developers often - if not always - have such a poor view of their clients...

v638sg7k1a92bx · 19-04-2014 12:34am

Sparks wrote: »

Personally, I lean towards the process where you phone or email a firm or developer and ask them to quote for the job you have in mind.

In all seriousness, have you ever considered that there could be a very good reason why, if everyone in the industry is doing so? I mean, one, two, ten examples, that could be random chance, but everyone?

That's actually the exact opposite of the facts of the matter.

From the charter of the Legal forum:

And in case having it as rule one wasn't sufficient, they go into detail:

And from the Taxation forum charter:

Both cases are interesting though - a forum of professionals, run for professionals, to discuss their profession, stating categorically in the rules that they don't do free work. Perhaps because that's a big part of what "professional" refers to, if I can be blunt here.

Actually, that analogy is rather off the mark, since no solicitor would sit down to even talk to you on the phone for five minutes about your case without a meter running.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous in the extreme. EVERY profession does this in one way or another. Solicitors and other charge-by-the-hour professionals will charge by the hour (including preparation of their equivalents of quotes, like the section 67 letters for solicitors). Architects, engineers and other professionals who work on a project basis want to know the budget right from the offing because it is a fundamental piece of the specification for the work. You want to do X. Solutions 1, 2 and 3 cost different amounts, take different amounts of time and so forth. The budget is an immensely important piece of information for those professionals when preparing tenders and quotes.

That's a very unlikely scenario as if you could tell them what you needed with the degree of accuracy required that they didn't need a budget, you'd probably be qualified or experienced in their profession. Except for solicitors, who charge by the hour and have slightly different rules, but even there for large cases, they're going to have a version of the budget conversation too (when they say "this will cost X, do you want to proceed").

I promise you, if that is how you think when hiring a professional, and you want free work done, you will be regarded by the professionals you approach in a very poor light indeed.
Which perhaps speaks to the question you asked at the start about why developers often - if not always - have such a poor view of their clients...

Go and read the threads on the taxation, accountancy and legal forums and come back and tell me there's no advice being sought. The disclaimers are just and arse covering exercise. I also work in said professions and the concept of the billable hour is gone, free consultations are the norm. Construction, architects etc operate on the same basis, I would like to procure your service, how much will it cost. Your attitude reminds me of this:

75988.strip.gif

Sparks · 19-04-2014 12:38am

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Your attitude reminds me of this:

Honestly, with neither sarcasm or irony, I no longer know if you're posting as a parody account or not anymore.

The Corinthian · 19-04-2014 12:13pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

I also work in said professions and the concept of the billable hour is gone, free consultations are the norm. Construction, architects etc operate on the same basis, I would like to procure your service, how much will it cost.

Now, the billable hour is not quite gone. 'Free' consultations are a marketing tool, designed to demonstrate the responders experience and knowledge in the hope that the questioner decides to engage them. Once they do, they will start charging.

Software development works on the same way as lawyers, accountants in this regard. However, consider also the differences.

To begin with you're not going to get a request for a fixed price on a court case - the closest you might get is a 'no fowl no fee' deal requested and if no one wants to take that up you don't get the same level of indignation as you do from posters who don't get their fixed price quote for an IT job, especially here.

As to asking what the budget is, I personally would avoid this direct approach with a client, but I'd still be seeking to assess what it is nonetheless (just as any professional will be trying to assess if you can afford the work or will they be chasing you up for payment in six months).

Budget is important because, to begin with, when you design, let alone develop, a solution for your client you have various options open to you. Do you develop a bespoke Web site (more expensive) or use an out of the box CMS (less expensive)? If using such a CMS, how much modification (modification = coding = time = money) of it is possible to get the desired, rather than 'close enough', functionality? Will design and branding be custom (hire a designer for the job) or stock images and templates? And finally, is their budget so small that they'd be lucky to get it done by someone in India, let alone someone in Ireland?

So budget, or at least for the developer/designer to have a good idea of the budget, is important, because they can deliver the best they can and that the client can afford - or at least tell them early on that they don't want to take on the project.

There's a lot of tyre-kickers out there who waste the time of IT professionals. Probably much more than in professions such as law or accountancy. There's numerous reasons for this; lack of a formal profession and standards (allowing for cheap freelancers - bottom feeders and students - to undercut the professionals; would-be clients always remember hearing of their low rates, but seldom hear of how they make a pigs ear of everything), outsourcing to the developing World and even the fact that you can deliver a project 'on the cheap' if you are willing to lower your expectations.

I've lost count how many I've met (offline) who will literally try to send you piles of work and when you reach a point where you feel you've demonstrated your skills and good will and point out that realistically you have to go on the clock, will either vanish or come back with some snotty reply about trust or how they're still deciding or whatever.

So everyone uses 'free advice' as a means to bring in clients, but only in IT do alleged would-be clients expect that they can get 80 hours of free consultancy if they can get away with it or if they buy you lunch.

Your attitude reminds me of this:

Like Sparks, I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. If you are then that whooshing sound you hear was the point made in that strip flying over your head.

If you were to go to an architect or builder and ask for an estimate for building a house, without any details, what do you think will be their reaction? Even if details are given, if vague they can be dangerously inaccurate if something important has been omitted. And what defines 'something important'? Unfortunately the client isn't the expert on this, the developer is.

For example, in another thread, someone sought a quote on an app. Because their grasp of technology was limited, they didn't think about the fact that what they wanted would require an n-tier set-up, that it an app and a Web site to handle central data transactions. Suddenly the estimate expands accordingly. Then of course it didn't occur to them either that this Web site would require an administration interface - easy peesy? Well yes and no, it's not rocket science for a good developer, but it is laborious, so that would represent a significant boating of the estimate.

To be able to have a valid estimate, you really need to think through what you are going to need, or to work through it with a developer. Many 'ideas men' don't bother doing they former, in their enthusiasm to get to market and the amount of time required to properly interface with a client to get that information is more than most developers are willing to do 'for free'.

And on top of this, he was convinced that he'd still be able to get it done, and a commercially viable product delivered, via outsourcing to India, for €1,000. He won't, even at their rates.

So what happened was that he couldn't get his estimate because he'd not really through through what he wanted. Pissed off that people told him this, he'll now go to a site like Elance, engage someone at $12 p.h. with the same approach, and by the time something gets delivered within his budget (which won't happen and he'll probably through good money after bad rather than admit failure), it'll be commercially unusable. Not that anyone will even know about it, because he won't have considered marketing until he starts noticing that no one is going to his new site or downloading his app.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2014 5:48pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Now, the billable hour is not quite gone. 'Free' consultations are a marketing tool, designed to demonstrate the responders experience and knowledge in the hope that the questioner decides to engage them. Once they do, they will start charging.

Software development works on the same way as lawyers, accountants in this regard. However, consider also the differences.

To begin with you're not going to get a request for a fixed price on a court case - the closest you might get is a 'no fowl no fee' deal requested and if no one wants to take that up you don't get the same level of indignation as you do from posters who don't get their fixed price quote for an IT job, especially here.

As to asking what the budget is, I personally would avoid this direct approach with a client, but I'd still be seeking to assess what it is nonetheless (just as any professional will be trying to assess if you can afford the work or will they be chasing you up for payment in six months).

Budget is important because, to begin with, when you design, let alone develop, a solution for your client you have various options open to you. Do you develop a bespoke Web site (more expensive) or use an out of the box CMS (less expensive)? If using such a CMS, how much modification (modification = coding = time = money) of it is possible to get the desired, rather than 'close enough', functionality? Will design and branding be custom (hire a designer for the job) or stock images and templates? And finally, is their budget so small that they'd be lucky to get it done by someone in India, let alone someone in Ireland?

So budget, or at least for the developer/designer to have a good idea of the budget, is important, because they can deliver the best they can and that the client can afford - or at least tell them early on that they don't want to take on the project.

There's a lot of tyre-kickers out there who waste the time of IT professionals. Probably much more than in professions such as law or accountancy. There's numerous reasons for this; lack of a formal profession and standards (allowing for cheap freelancers - bottom feeders and students - to undercut the professionals; would-be clients always remember hearing of their low rates, but seldom hear of how they make a pigs ear of everything), outsourcing to the developing World and even the fact that you can deliver a project 'on the cheap' if you are willing to lower your expectations.

I've lost count how many I've met (offline) who will literally try to send you piles of work and when you reach a point where you feel you've demonstrated your skills and good will and point out that realistically you have to go on the clock, will either vanish or come back with some snotty reply about trust or how they're still deciding or whatever.

So everyone uses 'free advice' as a means to bring in clients, but only in IT do alleged would-be clients expect that they can get 80 hours of free consultancy if they can get away with it or if they buy you lunch.

Like Sparks, I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. If you are then that whooshing sound you hear was the point made in that strip flying over your head.

If you were to go to an architect or builder and ask for an estimate for building a house, without any details, what do you think will be their reaction? Even if details are given, if vague they can be dangerously inaccurate if something important has been omitted. And what defines 'something important'? Unfortunately the client isn't the expert on this, the developer is.

For example, in another thread, someone sought a quote on an app. Because their grasp of technology was limited, they didn't think about the fact that what they wanted would require an n-tier set-up, that it an app and a Web site to handle central data transactions. Suddenly the estimate expands accordingly. Then of course it didn't occur to them either that this Web site would require an administration interface - easy peesy? Well yes and no, it's not rocket science for a good developer, but it is laborious, so that would represent a significant boating of the estimate.

To be able to have a valid estimate, you really need to think through what you are going to need, or to work through it with a developer. Many 'ideas men' don't bother doing they former, in their enthusiasm to get to market and the amount of time required to properly interface with a client to get that information is more than most developers are willing to do 'for free'.

And on top of this, he was convinced that he'd still be able to get it done, and a commercially viable product delivered, via outsourcing to India, for €1,000. He won't, even at their rates.

So what happened was that he couldn't get his estimate because he'd not really through through what he wanted. Pissed off that people told him this, he'll now go to a site like Elance, engage someone at $12 p.h. with the same approach, and by the time something gets delivered within his budget (which won't happen and he'll probably through good money after bad rather than admit failure), it'll be commercially unusable. Not that anyone will even know about it, because he won't have considered marketing until he starts noticing that no one is going to his new site or downloading his app.

Ok then, so for all the web developers/freelancer, this November when you go to your accountant and you ask him to file your tax return, what would you say if the first question he asked you was "what's your budget?"

fergalr · 20-04-2014 5:59pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Ok then, so for all the web developers/freelancer, this November when you go to your accountant and you ask him to file your tax return, what would you say if the first question he asked you was "what's your budget?"

The accountant doesn't need to ask that, because both parties understand roughly the amount of work involved in a tax return - to within the same ballpark. Furthermore, the accountant knows that the customer will probably expect to pay about what the tax return will cost.

Accountants do not frequently have people looking for 6 months work for a few hundred euro. If they did, they would adopt some way of qualifying their customers.

Haven't you learned this from the posts people have taken the time to write to you?
What do you do for a living? I'll see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense to you.

Colonel Panic · 20-04-2014 6:02pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Ok then, so for all the web developers/freelancer, this November when you go to your accountant and you ask him to file your tax return, what would you say if the first question he asked you was "what's your budget?"

Did you even read his post?

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2014 9:03pm

fergalr wrote: »

The accountant doesn't need to ask that, because both parties understand roughly the amount of work involved in a tax return - to within the same ballpark. Furthermore, the accountant knows that the customer will probably expect to pay about what the tax return will cost.

Accountants do not frequently have people looking for 6 months work for a few hundred euro. If they did, they would adopt some way of qualifying their customers.

Haven't you learned this from the posts people have taken the time to write to you?
What do you do for a living? I'll see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense to you.

Therein lies the problem, you have just displayed the exact same attitude that you criticize when it comes to purveyors of your services. You just stated that you think you know "roughly" what's involved when it comes to preparing your tax return but the reality is you don't. But for some reason developers and freelancers think that they have these unique set of problems and yet don't see the irony when they display the exact same level of ignorance for which they pour scorn over when on the receiving end.
For example, how often do we see threads or posts on this forum about how the industry is being devalued by elance, 99designs, outsourcing etc and yet in the same breadth the same freelancers have no hesitation in using taxback.com, online tax return for €99 etc. It's a joke!

Calina · 20-04-2014 9:27pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Therein lies the problem, you have just displayed the exact same attitude that you criticize when it comes to purveyors of your services. You just stated that you think you know "roughly" what's involved when it comes to preparing your tax return but the reality is you don't. But for some reason developers and freelancers think that they have these unique set of problems and yet don't see the irony when they display the exact same level of ignorance for which they pour scorn over when on the receiving end.
For example, how often do we see threads or posts on this forum about how the industry is being devalued by elance, 99designs, outsourcing etc and yet in the same breadth the same freelancers have no hesitation in using taxback.com, online tax return for €99 etc. It's a joke!

For the most part, the deliverable for a tax return is fairly measurable. The deliverable for a vague idea is not.

Not only that, with the best will in the world, no one says to an accountant that their nephew took an arithmetic class in 2nd year and can knock out a tax return like that. The design community often gets "my nephew took a HTML class and can do that website for nothing or "for the experience".

fergalr · 20-04-2014 9:28pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Therein lies the problem, you have just displayed the exact same attitude that you criticize when it comes to purveyors of your services. You just stated that you think you know "roughly" what's involved when it comes to preparing your tax return but the reality is you don't. But for some reason developers and freelancers think that they have these unique set of problems and yet don't see the irony when they display the exact same level of ignorance for which they pour scorn over when on the receiving end.
For example, how often do we see threads or posts on this forum about how the industry is being devalued by elance, 99designs, outsourcing etc and yet in the same breadth the same freelancers have no hesitation in using taxback.com, online tax return for €99 etc. It's a joke!

No, you are wrong, and worse, you aren't listening, so you aren't becoming less wrong.

I've a pretty good idea what's involved in my tax return, last year say. I know that if I go to an accountant, I'll expect to pay somewhere between 500 euro and 5000 euro; and probably much closer to the left of the scale. This will be roughly the case across all non high-net-worth individuals, as long as they don't have anything particularly messy going on. (And if they have something particular messy 'actually, I sold 3 companies last year etc.' they'll probably know about it.)

I know that there's almost zero probability that if I go to my accountant and ask for a quote for a tax return, that the accountant will turn around and say, "actually, what you are actually asking for there, is going to cost about 5,000,000 euro to do".

I'd even be fairly shocked to be quoted 50,000 for a tax return, or 500,000.

People asking for Apps built FREQUENTLY budget 500 euro when the real cost is 50,000 - 500,000.

I.e. they can frequently be off by a factor of 1000.

That's just different than with tax returns.

Tell me I'm wrong.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2014 10:11pm

Calina wrote: »

For the most part, the deliverable for a tax return is fairly measurable. The deliverable for a vague idea is not.

This just reinforces my point, tax returns can vary hugely depending on a range of different scenarios depending on marital status, no of children, residency, sources of income, health etc etc etc. This is exactly my point, why is it you feel that you can pre-empt what's involved in preparing a tax return yet others can't when it comes to app/web development?

Calina wrote: »

Not only that, with the best will in the world, no one says to an accountant that their nephew took an arithmetic class in 2nd year and can knock out a tax return like that. The design community often gets "my nephew took a HTML class and can do that website for nothing or "for the experience".

Respectfully, nowhere is this more prominent in the accountancy. Every small business owner thinks their wife or daughter is a book keeper and will expect a reduction in the fee. I'd say most of the freelancers on here think they give their accountant a spreadsheet with a nice tidy bow wrapped around it just because they use one of the umpteen free invoicing tools that are out there.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2014 10:24pm

fergalr wrote: »

No, you are wrong, and worse, you aren't listening, so you aren't becoming less wrong.

I've a pretty good idea what's involved in my tax return, last year say. I know that if I go to an accountant, I'll expect to pay somewhere between 500 euro and 5000 euro; and probably much closer to the left of the scale. This will be roughly the case across all non high-net-worth individuals, as long as they don't have anything particularly messy going on. (And if they have something particular messy 'actually, I sold 3 companies last year etc.' they'll probably know about it.)

I know that there's almost zero probability that if I go to my accountant and ask for a quote for a tax return, that the accountant will turn around and say, "actually, what you are actually asking for there, is going to cost about 5,000,000 euro to do".

I'd even be fairly shocked to be quoted 50,000 for a tax return, or 500,000.

People asking for Apps built FREQUENTLY budget 500 euro when the real cost is 50,000 - 500,000.

I.e. they can frequently be off by a factor of 1000.

That's just different than with tax returns.

Tell me I'm wrong.

Respectfully, you're wrong. For every developer that is approached by an "entrepreneur" about the next facebook, or linkedin multiply that by ten for every accountant that has been approached about a half ass idea for a restaurant, sweet shop, retail outlet, and basically any business idea you can conceive. How does an accountant possibly quote for these types of jobs? Why do posters on this forum think that they have a unique set of circumstances compared to any other profession?

My opinion is that, web development, design and services around the internet in general are all relatively new services compared to law, tax, accounting, architecture. As a result, there's no real professional membership with any type of clout for regulating these professions and because of the nature of the internet and the concept of open source, this would be an anathema to many people in the profession anyway. Therefore we get these hordes of freelancers who have no concept of what professional services really entails and ultimately we end up with forums like these with disgruntled posters cribbing about how their clients don't value them.

fergalr · 20-04-2014 10:27pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

This just reinforces my point, tax returns can vary hugely depending on a range of different scenarios depending on marital status, no of children, residency, sources of income, health etc etc etc. This is exactly my point, why is it you feel that you can pre-empt what's involved in preparing a tax return yet others can't when it comes to app/web development?

Because
1) scope of typical app requests varies more wildly than scope of typical accountancy requests.
2) you don't get unserious people who are convinced they'll be completely rich - if only they can get their accounts done in a hurry.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Respectfully, nowhere is this more prominent in the accountancy. Every small business owner thinks their wife or daughter is a book keeper and will expect a reduction in the fee. I'd say most of the freelancers on here think they give their accountant a spreadsheet with a nice tidy bow wrapped around it just because they use one of the umpteen free invoicing tools that are out there.

Weren't you just saying: I know of no other profession that openly criticizes it's customers i.e. the people who buy your services than freelance developers and designers."?

Anyway, where are you going with this - you think accountants have the same problems as web developers?

Hey, have you considered starting off conversations by asking people what their budget is? I hear its a good way of qualifying your potential customers.

fergalr · 20-04-2014 10:38pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Respectfully, you're wrong. For every developer that is approached by an "entrepreneur" about the next facebook, or linkedin multiply that by ten for every accountant that has been approached about a half ass idea for a restaurant, sweet shop, retail outlet, and basically any business idea you can conceive. How does an accountant possibly quote for these types of jobs?

Well, you are the one saying that accountants have a better system than web developers - so, you tell us?

Joking aside: you still don't get it.

Whether they have a half-ass idea for a restaurant, sweet shop, retail outlet etc, just tell them you'll charge them between 500 euro a month and 2000 a month to do their books - depending on how flaky they seem.

And you are done. Because you can service 95% of all of those businesses with a fee within a factor of 4 of each other. Or certainly factor of 10.

Am I wrong about this?

There is no factor of 1000 misunderstanding there.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Why do posters on this forum think that they have a unique set of circumstances compared to any other profession?

Because they genuinely do.

(Not different to every profession, though. Tell an architect or construction engineer you want to build a mansion, and see what they ask you. Bet they ask about your budget pretty early. Ask a car engineer to build you a 'sportscar' and see what happens.)

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

My opinion is that, web development, design and services around the internet in general are all relatively new services compared to law, tax, accounting, architecture. As a result, there's no real professional membership with any type of clout for regulating these professions and because of the nature of the internet and the concept of open source, this would be an anathema to many people in the profession anyway. Therefore we get these hordes of freelancers who have no concept of what professional services really entails and ultimately we end up with forums like these with disgruntled posters cribbing about how their clients don't value them.

So, your theory is that no one in tech knows how to be professional, and as a result, they are all here crying to each other.

First off, yes, there could be professional membership. Maybe some day there will be. Expect your software to cost *a lot* more. I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say software in practice is typically more complex than accounting. (Not because I might be wrong, but because it sounds controversial.) So, if you want regulated membership controlled disciplines, no problem - people will then quickly learn they can't get an app built from the carded professionals for less than 100K; that'd solve all these problems, yes. It'd destroy a lot of utility, though.

Secondly, there's no problem on this forum, developers are not here crying to each other. Their skills are in demand. This is a forum for developers talking to developers, and sometimes they like to swap stories about the crazy things they've been asked - which is fair enough - its how we learn from each other.

The only reason there's a thread here, is because some people thought it might make sense if we could make the forum also more useful to non-developers, seeking services of developers. Not because anyone is particularly trying to obtain clients here; but because it'd be a nice thing to do, and might create utility.

FWIW, you've convinced me personally that's just a bad idea. Not that its up to me in any way, but if it was, I'd now be in favour of no change to the forum charter. This is why we can't have nice things; etc.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2014 10:44pm

fergalr wrote: »

Because
1) scope of typical app requests varies more wildly than scope of typical accountancy requests.
2) you don't get unserious people who are convinced they'll be completely rich - if only they can get their accounts done in a hurry.

Respectfully... how do you know, are you a qualified accountant? If I was to reverse question 1 and say that there is more to a typical tax return than a typical app request , how many app developers would be jumping down my throat?

fergalr wrote: »

Anyway, where are you going with this - you think accountants have the same problems as web developers?

No, i think that web developers have the same problems as everyone else and should stop whining about it an concentrate on providing a good service and managing client expectations.

fergalr wrote: »

Hey, have you considered starting off conversations by asking people what their budget is? I hear its a good way of qualifying your potential customers.

I will admit that I am going to try this but judging by the amount of disgruntled developers on this forum it may not be the best approach.

fergalr · 20-04-2014 10:45pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Respectfully... how do you know, are you a qualified accountant? If I was to reverse question 1 and say that there is more to a typical tax return than a typical app request , how many app developers would be jumping down my throat?

Just tell me whether its typical for clients to estimate costs for accountancy services that are off by a factor of 100 or 1000?

Or would a factor of 10 about cover it?

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2014 10:54pm

fergalr wrote: »

Just tell me whether its typical for clients to estimate costs for accountancy services that are off by a factor of 100 or 1000?

Or would a factor of 10 about cover it?

It doesn't happen in the first instance because client expectations are managed from the beginning. It's very simple and usually in this format: Meet the client, exchange ideas, provide a quote saying I expect this website to take this much time and cost this much, here is an example of a similar website I've developed and this is what it entails. In the event that there are overruns which are no fault of my own my daily rate is x. Finally, I require an initial upfront payment of % before I can commence work.
If you have no experience in building said website or particular aspect of the site, you contact your professional body or someone who has an find out the average time & cost and relay that to the client.

croo · 20-04-2014 11:06pm

As a result, there's no real professional membership with any type of clout for regulating these professions and because of the nature of the internet and the concept of open source, this would be an anathema to many people in the profession anyway.

I failed to see what bearing open source has on this discussion either way? Would you care to elaborate on the concept of open source?

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2014 11:13pm

croo wrote: »

I failed to see what bearing open source has on this discussion either way? Would you are to elaborate on the concept of open source?

No I would not but I'm sure you would love that. Maybe you could create a new thread in the open source forum and I may consider contributing.

croo · 20-04-2014 11:34pm

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

No I would not but I'm sure you would love that. Maybe you could create a new thread in the open source forum and I may consider contributing.

Well I just wanted to judge your level of competency to make such statements of fact. It appears now that your comments re open source have no bearing on the discussion and you just threw it in there to make it look like you know something about the world of software development? So, now I wonder what we should make of all other statements you make.

Sparks · 20-04-2014 11:44pm

Mod Note: This discussion was intended to be on whether or not we would continue to permit - or how we would ban - discussion on the "I have an idea and want free advice" theme in the future. It is not a discussion on whether or not professionals should be paid for their work, nor whether or not developers should "stop whining" and that side tangent ends here or bans will be issued. I am not prepared to entertain the notion that the Development forum is where people come to complain about developers charging for their work.

fergalr · 21-04-2014 12:10am

Sparks wrote: »

Mod Note: This discussion was intended to be on whether or not we would continue to permit - or how we would ban - discussion on the "I have an idea and want free advice" theme in the future. It is not a discussion on whether or not professionals should be paid for their work, nor whether or not developers should "stop whining" and that side tangent ends here or bans will be issued. I am not prepared to entertain the notion that the Development forum is where people come to complain about developers charging for their work.

So, I've been involved in the tangent part of the thread too - so that's partly my fault - didn't mean for it to get so off topic; apologies.

For my part, though, the off-topic discussion just again serves to illustrate the pitfalls of trying to permit the "I have an idea and want free advice".

Probably even trying to agree ground rules that make sense to everyone, and don't invite drawn-out meta-discussion, would be tough.

I have an idea for an app...

Comments