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FTP - Functional Threshold Power....how big is yours!!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17 bobblehead_jr


    With a 3:55 bike split on a flat HIM course not a chance you are hitting those numbers of 345watts. If it was your correct FTP/ watts per kg i would be expecting a low 2hr bike split pacing off around 280watts.

    Does not compute!!

    Well I only bought my power meter in December and tested recently, my power may have been lower for my Ironman in Galway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Well I only bought my power meter in December and tested recently, my power may have been lower for my Ironman in Galway.

    You didn't by any chance test in a shed with a fan blowing full force in your face and at your iBike?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 bobblehead_jr


    tunney wrote: »
    You didn't by any chance test in a shed with a fan blowing full force in your face and at your iBike?

    No, one draw back of the iBike is that it can not be used inside, its not really an issue for me .. I cycle outside 99% of the time. Only wimps cycle inside when its cold.

    I have a Tacx Flow which I use when I have to, it has wattage also which I use. I think the wattage on the tacx is incorrect, for what feels like the same effort it will often show about 20 watts lower. Some people mention calibrating the flow but I am not that bothered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 bobblehead_jr


    I see some people are using the Power2Max, I don't know why anyone would pay 1000e for one. The iBike is only around 500e and doesn't suffer from the same inaccurate readings that the P2M does. I read an article a few weeks ago about heat fluctuation causing very inaccurate readings, up to 50-60watts, with the P2M.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭Fazz


    Wait wait....

    I've to go get some popcorn... :D :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    I see some people are using the Power2Max, I don't know why anyone would pay 1000e for one. The iBike is only around 500e and doesn't suffer from the same inaccurate readings that the P2M does. I read an article a few weeks ago about heat fluctuation causing very inaccurate readings, up to 50-60watts, with the P2M.

    Nice try but i aint biting!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 bobblehead_jr


    Nice try but i aint biting!!

    Biting what?

    Genuine question. Lots of info out there about the P2M and its power drift. I can't use an iBike on a trainer but it seems the P2M is also useless indoors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Biting what?

    Genuine question. Lots of info out there about the P2M and its power drift. I can't use an iBike on a trainer but it seems the P2M is also useless indoors.

    I think jackyback is reacting, or not as the case may be, to your suggestion that he has overstated his FTP by 60 watts by not calibrating his P2M.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    tunney wrote: »
    I think jackyback is reacting, or not as the case may be, to your suggestion that he has overstated his FTP by 60 watts by not calibrating his P2M.

    More to do with his posting history, if it smells like a troll it is likely one:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 bobblehead_jr


    Okay. Maybe I will just post on slowtwitch in the future, this place is a ghost town anyway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Okay. Maybe I will just post on slowtwitch in the future, this place is a ghost town anyway.

    He (or She) may have insulted Jackybacks manhood, and whatnot, but he/she speaks the truth on this bit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭Macanri


    User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
    Jackyback|284watts|284watts|4.17|325watts|5.00|T20+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    NWM2|285watts|285watts|3.32|310watts|3.7|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
    pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    twonpelota|250 watts|250 watts|3.2|300watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|SRM
    Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
    Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    BennyMul| 253 watts |253 watts |3.4|290watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
    Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
    Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200


    So, my first ever FTP test, having only recently invested in a turbo. What I did: Spun easy for 7mins to warm up the brake then calibrated. ( I calibrated in the small cog and it was giving +7). Then into the 5 min TT, (I can't remember if I set the brake to +1). I pushed hard enough and I was pushing over 300 watts for most of it. But then I calibrated again in the big cog and got a +5 - why from +7 in the small to +5 in the big - I don't know - any takers?
    Anyway, due to recalibrating I lost my 5min TT figures. _ No way was I doing it again.
    So set the brake to +1 and into the 20min TT. Ouchy ouch!!! Now I know what you talk about whan you mention the pain cave! Not pleasant. This was my first time really pushing myself on the turbo, all the other sessions were easy to medium in comparison.
    So I have calculated the above FTP by taking my 20min TT avg watt figure of 249 and multiplying by 0.95. Is this correct? If I had my 5min TT avg figure too, then what would the calc be?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    Macanri wrote: »
    So, my first ever FTP test, having only recently invested in a turbo. What I did: Spun easy for 7mins to warm up the brake then calibrated. ( I calibrated in the small cog and it was giving +7). Then into the 5 min TT, (I can't remember if I set the brake to +1). I pushed hard enough and I was pushing over 300 watts for most of it. But then I calibrated again in the big cog and got a +5 - why from +7 in the small to +5 in the big - I don't know - any takers?
    Anyway, due to recalibrating I lost my 5min TT figures. _ No way was I doing it again.
    So set the brake to +1 and into the 20min TT. Ouchy ouch!!! Now I know what you talk about whan you mention the pain cave! Not pleasant. This was my first time really pushing myself on the turbo, all the other sessions were easy to medium in comparison.
    So I have calculated the above FTP by taking my 20min TT avg watt figure of 249 and multiplying by 0.95. Is this correct? If I had my 5min TT avg figure too, then what would the calc be?

    Hey Mac, the figures are right as you have them. The 5min is only used as an opener as a straight t20 will overstate your FTP numbers. I would have thought you would have needed to get the calibration closer to zero than +5 or +7 as this will no doubt screw up the readings on the flow. You cannot beat a visit to the pain cave alright!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,074 ✭✭✭Bambaata


    User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
    Jackyback|284watts|284watts|4.17|325watts|5.00|T20+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    NWM2|285watts|285watts|3.32|310watts|3.7|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
    pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    twonpelota|250 watts|250 watts|3.2|300watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|SRM
    Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
    Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    BennyMul| 253 watts |253 watts |3.4|290watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
    Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
    Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
    Bambaata|322 watts|322 watts|4.17|340?watts|4.75|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM

    Ouch! Im not sure what my FTP was before. The number i had been going off from November was 277 but i wasnt believing that was true not long after it. Then the revelation about the P2M and heat/turbo issues proved that the 277 was most likely wrong. On one session after 45mins of decent effort i 0'd and it immediately shot up 30-40Watts! Id guess i was somewhere around 290 or so


  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    So people are targeting FTP's of 300-340 at the higher end.

    What is your 40km/HIM/IM PB (with wattage if you have the data) and target time for any of those distances this season if you were to hit the target watts?

    What %FTP would you look to pace a HIM/IM at?

    Is outright watts or w/kg more important for a fast IM like Roth/Austria?

    Wheel being built with a new powertap so first test to appear next week hopefully


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    So people are targeting FTP's of 300-340 at the higher end.

    What is your 40km/HIM/IM PB (with wattage if you have the data) and target time for any of those distances this season if you were to hit the target watts?
    PB for HIM was something like a 2:35 and 6:40 for IM (undercooked and tough bike course) neither with power although i would be a much stronger biker this year. This season i will be aiming for somewhere around a 5hr bike split in Roth.
    What %FTP would you look to pace a HIM/IM at?
    Everyone paces different but for me right now i would be aiming for 75% of my FTP which would be 213watts for IM and HIM would be paced around 80% of my ftp at 227watts.
    Is outright watts or w/kg more important for a fast IM like Roth/Austria?
    For both of those courses they are a TTer's dream so outright watts would be more important although if you were to pick a hilly course like IMUK, Lanza or Nice then w/kg would be more important.
    Wheel being built with a new powertap so first test to appear next week hopefully
    Good luck with that!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    PB for HIM was something like a 2:35 and 6:40 for IM (undercooked and tough bike course) neither with power although i would be a much stronger biker this year. This season i will be aiming for somewhere around a 5hr bike split in Roth.


    Everyone paces different but for me right now i would be aiming for 75% of my FTP which would be 213watts for IM and HIM would be paced around 80% of my ftp at 227watts.

    So for a 5hr bike split, 220W is in or around where you wanna hold it, assuming reasonable aero set up, TT rig, good wheels, helmet etc...?

    For both of those courses they are a TTer's dream so outright watts would be more important although if you were to pick a hilly course like IMUK, Lanza or Nice then w/kg would be more important.


    Good luck with that!!

    I've been suffering away in my hurt locker this winter so ready for a test, the tougher thing than the test will be facing the figures after using a Tacx's figure all winter :-(

    If you wanna go 5hr on the bike, what kind of standalone 40km TT time do you think you'd be capable of on a flattish course?

    Roth is a super fast bike course, lovely surface, 'easy' climbs and nice descents to make up time on when others are doddling


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    If you wanna go 5hr on the bike, what kind of standalone 40km TT time do you think you'd be capable of on a flattish course?

    I went 5:03 in Roth last year and I reckon that based on some training TT rides on a flattish course I was in shape to go just under an hour for 40km


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    So for a 5hr bike split, 220W is in or around where you wanna hold it, assuming reasonable aero set up, TT rig, good wheels, helmet etc...?

    Probably even less, i have read some race reports of guys with similar race weight to myself go sub 5 off much lower wattage, some even 180/5 watts. One guy i know paced Austria off 205watts for a sub 5 split and would have been slightly heavier with a similar enough setup & bike to what i have.
    If you wanna go 5hr on the bike, what kind of standalone 40km TT time do you think you'd be capable of on a flattish course?
    I have done 40km in less than an hour on the turbo but would take that with a large pinch of salt due to the tacx fortius numbers being generous.
    I would like to think close to the hour mark but its hard to say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    So people are targeting FTP's of 300-340 at the higher end.

    Can target lots of things. Some will make it most will not.
    What is your 40km/HIM/IM PB (with wattage if you have the data) and target time for any of those distances this season if you were to hit the target watts?

    Apples oranges Gav. Courses, conditions, setsups, weights.
    What %FTP would you look to pace a HIM/IM at?

    Different strokes.

    IM biking is not about FTP. Its about fuel economy. I could bike at a higher percentage of FTP than friends simply because I was better at burning fat. That sort of thing does not come into FTP testing though. More to it at IM than just FTP
    Is outright watts or w/kg more important for a fast IM like Roth/Austria?
    [/QUOTE
    For Roth Austria the important things are :

    1) When comparing times to 2011 you must remember the ideal (read cool) conditions in both races. Compare that to the usual 35-40 degrees in Austria.

    2) Austria was 5km shorter than usual on the bike and 1.5km shorter on the run in 2011 than other years.

    3) The climbs, short sharp up, long gentle down. Ideal. As long as your race smart.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    tunney wrote: »
    Can target lots of things. Some will make it most will not.

    Just looking for general ideas, would have thought the few in the table that were targeting 300+ would be in and around 5 hr bike split on a fast course.

    Why do you think they won't reach their target?
    Current type of training/Current volume of training/Current fitness level/Genes?

    tunney wrote: »
    Apples oranges Gav. Courses, conditions, setsups, weights.


    I'm racing Austria and race weight likely to be 88/89kg so did ask specifically about faster courses and if watts or w/kg was more important for that type of course. I know heavier/sweatier can have big impact in cooler/hotter conditions.
    tunney wrote: »
    Different strokes.

    IM biking is not about FTP. Its about fuel economy. I could bike at a higher percentage of FTP than friends simply because I was better at burning fat. That sort of thing does not come into FTP testing though. More to it at IM than just FTP

    What do you do specifically to improve fuel economy? Train more fasted? Train more? Train in particular zones? Do you eat certain foods at certain times pre and post training?
    Is outright watts or w/kg more important for a fast IM like Roth/Austria?
    [/QUOTE
    For Roth Austria the important things are :

    1) When comparing times to 2011 you must remember the ideal (read cool) conditions in both races. Compare that to the usual 35-40 degrees in Austria.

    2) Austria was 5km shorter than usual on the bike and 1.5km shorter on the run in 2011 than other years.

    3) The climbs, short sharp up, long gentle down. Ideal. As long as your race smart.

    What would your FTP have been at its highest when race fit for IMA originally? What was your predicted bike split then to run well? What % of FTP did you plan on racing on for it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Nwm2


    User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
    Jackyback|284watts|284watts|4.17|325watts|5.00|T20+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    NWM2|285watts|294.5watts|3.46|310watts|3.7|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL+
    pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    twonpelota|250 watts|250 watts|3.2|300watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|SRM
    Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
    Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    BennyMul| 253 watts |253 watts |3.4|290watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
    Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
    Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
    Bambaata|322 watts|322 watts|4.17|340?watts|4.75|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM



    Yuck, 6 weeks of training to eek out a measly 10 watts. I'm trying to stack up the excuses: there was a week off due to travel, and a few days lost due to illness, and I wasn't well rested etc (started the test at 10:30PM). Still, not a good performance. Weight hasn't come down either, so watts/kg still crap.

    My training plan called for a block with lots of VO2max work, and I just feel I don't respond as well as threshold work to it. Fortunately I've six weeks of that coming up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Just looking for general ideas, would have thought the few in the table that were targeting 300+ would be in and around 5 hr bike split on a fast course.
    300 FTP, assuming normal economy, would give an IM pace of 210-220. On continental roads this would be sub five (with aload of cavaets)
    Why do you think they won't reach their target?
    Current type of training/Current volume of training/Current fitness level/Genes?

    Not everyone can achieve their goals, most won't do the work. Or will do the work but b1tch out complaining about how much it hurts etc etc
    I'm racing Austria and race weight likely to be 88/89kg so did ask specifically about faster courses and if watts or w/kg was more important for that type of course. I know heavier/sweatier can have big impact in cooler/hotter conditions.

    88-89kg - less than 6 foot. I would not be worrying about the bike. At that weight and in typical Austria heat (37c) the run is going to crucify you.
    What do you do specifically to improve fuel economy? Train more fasted? Train more? Train in particular zones? Do you eat certain foods at certain times pre and post training?

    Stuff, lots of stuff :)
    (I read and research this alot, you can do a good bit.)
    What would your FTP have been at its highest when race fit for IMA originally? What was your predicted bike split then to run well? What % of FTP did you plan on racing on for it?

    2009 it was alot higher than 2010, prob 330+. Was about 305-10 in 2010 but I can ride at a high percentage of FTP. No predicted bike split. Ride at a power and what ever that yields that yields.

    In 2009 230 or so watts.
    In 2010 225 watts (actually rode at 210 as I ditched the plan once I realised that 210 would get my sub 5 and I wanted to save myself for the run, little did I know the water was in cups).


  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    tunney wrote: »
    300 FTP, assuming normal economy, would give an IM pace of 210-220. On continental roads this would be sub five (with aload of cavaets)


    Not everyone can achieve their goals, most won't do the work. Or will do the work but b1tch out complaining about how much it hurts etc etc

    So they won't reach it because they won't do the work that they've set out?
    tunney wrote: »
    88-89kg - less than 6 foot. I would not be worrying about the bike. At that weight and in typical Austria heat (37c) the run is going to crucify you.

    I'm 6' 2, I can't see myself getting much lower than that weight realistically, i'm about 93/94 at the moment, lowest i've been racing was 89 a few years ago, but we'll see. Its an estimate of weight then based on what i've done previously and how I felt then. I've run 3:06 in an open mary at 92kg, but not in heat.


    tunney wrote: »
    Stuff, lots of stuff :)
    (I read and research this alot, you can do a good bit.)

    So does that mean go find out yourself? Any links/recommendations for books/tests?

    I've read Metabolic Efficiency Training by Bob Seebohar which talks a lot about it. Different things i've read seem to suggest a more paleo approach and training on fat for longer bikes before taking in carb, but I know your haribo addiction and snub of the paleo so interested in what you've done.
    tunney wrote: »
    2009 it was alot higher than 2010, prob 330+. Was about 305-10 in 2010 but I can ride at a high percentage of FTP. No predicted bike split. Ride at a power and what ever that yields that yields.

    In 2009 230 or so watts.
    In 2010 225 watts (actually rode at 210 as I ditched the plan once I realised that 210 would get my sub 5 and I wanted to save myself for the run, little did I know the water was in cups).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    So they won't reach it because they won't do the work that they've set out?



    I'm 6' 2, I can't see myself getting much lower than that weight realistically, i'm about 93/94 at the moment, lowest i've been racing was 89 a few years ago, but we'll see. Its an estimate of weight then based on what i've done previously and how I felt then. I've run 3:06 in an open mary at 92kg, but not in heat.


    I am also 6 2 but 80kg . I just cant get my head around a 3.06 at 92kg. Thats 2 stone heavier. Can you give us more background? Sport involvement before triathlon
    Age, pb times in triathlon olympic and sprint, triathlon 40k bike split times..courses etc. Not interested in any times on a turbo trainer
    When was your last triathlon, were and what times did you put in?
    Cheers


  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    I am also 6 2 but 80kg . I just cant get my head around a 3.06 at 92kg. Thats 2 stone heavier. Can you give us more background? Sport involvement before triathlon
    Age, pb times in triathlon olympic and sprint, triathlon 40k bike split times..courses etc. Not interested in any times on a turbo trainer
    When was your last triathlon, were and what times did you put in?
    Cheers

    Actually just checked the last lab test before the race I did, was 93kg and 14% bf a week before the race (Rotterdam 2010)

    Lowest weight was 2007 at 88/89kg, usually end up racing at 91/92 in tri season. Am known to wander up to 97/98 when not training/being fat.

    Been doing tri since 2005 but taken a few years off here and there, didn't race last year, year before did a few tri's but more as fun off my marathon build, very little swim/bike (none until end April). The year before I did Roth and a few races, splits were 1:10(?)/5:32/3:51 10:49 overall. Would have been 92/93kg for this. Was hot enough. Did slow in run towards end, half as I knew I had sub 11 which was the goal, and half because my nutritional plan for the run sucked and I barely ate anything

    Run pb\s: 5km is 18:00, 10km is 37:28 (in 05 and 10)

    I've never done proper bike training before this winter. Always had crap bike splits. Been working on the turbo this winter so am hopeful of some nice returns. Didn't know what an FTP was a few months ago but I think i've found out :-)

    Last tri was Dunmore 2010
    13:16 35:45 28:25 1:19:37
    So run was my best, bike my worst, swim middling

    Last duathlon I did was 1st Fingal in 2011, best bike was 33:38, I did 36:10. I did brownlee one since, but with little training done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    tunney wrote: »
    *cough* doping *cough*

    What?


  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    I said I went 'Fernando' Fuentes for a bike fit, not Dr. Fuentes for a bike fix :-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Actually just checked the last lab test before the race I did, was 93kg and 14% bf a week before the race (Rotterdam 2010)

    Lowest weight was 2007 at 88/89kg, usually end up racing at 91/92 in tri season. Am known to wander up to 97/98 when not training/being fat.

    Been doing tri since 2005 but taken a few years off here and there, didn't race last year, year before did a few tri's but more as fun off my marathon build, very little swim/bike (none until end April). The year before I did Roth and a few races, splits were 1:10(?)/5:32/3:51 10:49 overall. Would have been 92/93kg for this. Was hot enough. Did slow in run towards end, half as I knew I had sub 11 which was the goal, and half because my nutritional plan for the run sucked and I barely ate anything

    Run pb\s: 5km is 18:00, 10km is 37:28 (in 05 and 10)

    I've never done proper bike training before this winter. Always had crap bike splits. Been working on the turbo this winter so am hopeful of some nice returns. Didn't know what an FTP was a few months ago but I think i've found out :-)

    Last tri was Dunmore 2010
    13:16 35:45 28:25 1:19:37
    So run was my best, bike my worst, swim middling

    Last duathlon I did was 1st Fingal in 2011, best bike was 33:38, I did 36:10. I did brownlee one since, but with little training done.

    How are those sufferfest videos going?
    Which one is your favourite?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    tunney wrote: »
    How are those sufferfest videos going?
    Which one is your favourite?

    lol


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