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Newly qualifieds; The future, moving abroad etc

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  • 11-07-2011 10:59am
    #1
    kronsington
    Registered Users Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭


    well im due to qualify next april, and after that i dont know whats going to happen. ill know before xmas whether the firm are going to keep me on or what. i intend to seriously explore the possibility of moving abroad if possible. i dont think i could go through the whole re-qualification process thought. to be honest, im pretty disillusioned with law and have realised there is no way i can see myself practising forever. im just not particularly interested in it and its been a struggle to get where i am. i am hoping the qualification will possibly enable me to pursue other areas (i dont know what exactly yet) in the future- a lot of the skills we learn as solicitors are (hopefully) transferable to other professions. does anyone know of anyone who went from practising solicitor to a new career? id be interested to read of some peoples experiences. for now i just want to get qualified and explore every option over the next few months. i'd advise anyone to seriously consider whether they want to get into this profession. im 29 now and kind of regret it. there's nothing keeping me in ireland once i qulaify and i think it may be the best thing, assuming i can find work. anyone have similar thoughts? thanks


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    #2
    chopser
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭chopser


    kronsington wrote: »
    well im due to qualify next april, and after that i dont know whats going to happen. ill know before xmas whether the firm are going to keep me on or what. i intend to seriously explore the possibility of moving abroad if possible. i dont think i could go through the whole re-qualification process thought. to be honest, im pretty disillusioned with law and have realised there is no way i can see myself practising forever. im just not particularly interested in it and its been a struggle to get where i am. i am hoping the qualification will possibly enable me to pursue other areas (i dont know what exactly yet) in the future- a lot of the skills we learn as solicitors are (hopefully) transferable to other professions. does anyone know of anyone who went from practising solicitor to a new career? id be interested to read of some peoples experiences. for now i just want to get qualified and explore every option over the next few months. i'd advise anyone to seriously consider whether they want to get into this profession. im 29 now and kind of regret it. there's nothing keeping me in ireland once i qulaify and i think it may be the best thing, assuming i can find work. anyone have similar thoughts? thanks

    I have read a lot of pieces knocking the legal trade and the writer saying they wish they had chosen another profession, your piece also puts me thinking as to why I in fact want to become a solicitor.

    Can you explain what you dislike about it and why you became so disillusioned?
    Is it the money, the work, the stress, the paperwork, the declining business?


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    #3
    shaneybaby
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shaneybaby


    kronsington wrote: »
    well im due to qualify next april, and after that i dont know whats going to happen. ill know before xmas whether the firm are going to keep me on or what. i intend to seriously explore the possibility of moving abroad if possible. i dont think i could go through the whole re-qualification process thought. to be honest, im pretty disillusioned with law and have realised there is no way i can see myself practising forever. im just not particularly interested in it and its been a struggle to get where i am. i am hoping the qualification will possibly enable me to pursue other areas (i dont know what exactly yet) in the future- a lot of the skills we learn as solicitors are (hopefully) transferable to other professions. does anyone know of anyone who went from practising solicitor to a new career? id be interested to read of some peoples experiences. for now i just want to get qualified and explore every option over the next few months. i'd advise anyone to seriously consider whether they want to get into this profession. im 29 now and kind of regret it. there's nothing keeping me in ireland once i qulaify and i think it may be the best thing, assuming i can find work. anyone have similar thoughts? thanks

    Good article in this months gazette about going to OZ and working, some places sound like crazy outback kinda stuff but i attended a talk with him there a few weeks ago and he made it pretty interesting. About 20/30 people there.

    www.rrrlaw.com.au


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    #4
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I'm playing it by ear over the next 3-4 years. I'm similarly in my late 20s and while I love my job, the money isn't really there.

    Perhaps I'm greedy or whatever or perhaps I've just been raised accustomed to a certain lifestyle, but while I'm really enjoying the work and the people I work with - the lack of money is really starting to depress me a bit and looking at more senior colleagues doesn't give me much hope.

    Unlike the OP though, I really don't want to leave Ireland and it would have to be a very solemn and thought out decision to make as returning would be impossible.


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    #5
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    In relation to Oz

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056308011


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    #6
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    kronsington wrote: »
    well im due to qualify next april, and after that i dont know whats going to happen. ill know before xmas whether the firm are going to keep me on or what. i intend to seriously explore the possibility of moving abroad if possible. i dont think i could go through the whole re-qualification process thought. to be honest, im pretty disillusioned with law and have realised there is no way i can see myself practising forever. im just not particularly interested in it and its been a struggle to get where i am. i am hoping the qualification will possibly enable me to pursue other areas (i dont know what exactly yet) in the future- a lot of the skills we learn as solicitors are (hopefully) transferable to other professions. does anyone know of anyone who went from practising solicitor to a new career? id be interested to read of some peoples experiences. for now i just want to get qualified and explore every option over the next few months. i'd advise anyone to seriously consider whether they want to get into this profession. im 29 now and kind of regret it. there's nothing keeping me in ireland once i qulaify and i think it may be the best thing, assuming i can find work. anyone have similar thoughts? thanks

    I know that in London, the magic words on nearly all job descriptions that aren't training contracts are "post qualification experience". So if you get an offer of a post qualification position in your current place of employment, consider staying for a while for tactical reasons even if you want to move abroad. I don't know if you were just talking about moving abroad as a back-up plan if that doesn't happen.

    As regards the technical requirements and qualifications for practicing in the UK, I believe this is the website you need. http://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/qlts.page
    I won't attempt to summarize the rules for you as I haven't read it in detail. But it should all be there hopefully. Look at the FAQ's too.


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    #7
    shaneybaby
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shaneybaby


    whydoibother? wrote: »
    I know that in London, the magic words on nearly all job descriptions that aren't training contracts are "post qualification experience". So if you get an offer of a post qualification position in your current place of employment, consider staying for a while for tactical reasons even if you want to move abroad. I don't know if you were just talking about moving abroad as a back-up plan if that doesn't happen.

    As regards the technical requirements and qualifications for practicing in the UK, I believe this is the website you need. http://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/qlts.page
    I won't attempt to summarize the rules for you as I haven't read it in detail. But it should all be there hopefully. Look at the FAQ's too.

    I believe that a change in the requirements to qualify in england as an irish solicitor will change in the next few months. The requirement thereafter will be one exam (constitutional i think). Ken Murphy said as much at the OZ talk.


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    #8
    kronsington
    Registered Users Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭kronsington


    shaneybaby wrote: »
    I believe that a change in the requirements to qualify in england as an irish solicitor will change in the next few months. The requirement thereafter will be one exam (constitutional i think). Ken Murphy said as much at the OZ talk.

    i attended that talk as well- it was quite informative and ill be looking into the oz option over the next few months.

    to answer an earlier question im just basically disillusioned with everything really. the money (lack of), the pressure, the work itself, the whole ordeal of qualifying, securing an apprenticeship, the expense involved. if they do decide to keep me on for a while after my contract expires, of course ill take it, i would be a fool not to. i just cant see myself practising in a few years. if its possible to get a decent job abroad next year, ill take it. id personally like to live away from ireland for a few years maybe anyway, have no mortgage, kids etc. i know its a great qualification to have and its been bloody hard work to get to. im curious to know does anyone who any stories of people who moved into other areas/professions once they qualified? im just curious. from my brief research, it appears there are oppurtunities for solicitors to pursue non legal careers. i havent researched or thought bout it fully as of yet. just this time next year i would say its likely ill have moved abroad or will be planning to


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    #9
    NoQuarter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    Not exactly what you asked but I know a newly qualified solicitor who just moved to Toronto and has found work with a law firm over there!


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    #10
    chicachic
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭chicachic


    I qualified in April 2010 and being based outside of Dublin, I have not worked in legal since qualifying as there are simply no jobs. Due to personal circumstances I was unable to move for work opportunities. I am now considering several options, one being a transfer to legal costs accounting. Can anyone offer any words of advice on this area?

    Other options I am going through at the moment are taxation or compliance. Again there does not appear to be a demand for either outside of Dublin.

    I simply need work. While taking a non legal job since qualifying (financial necessity) I found that it was simply dragging me down and did nothing but depress me. I have since left and now find myself unemployed for one month. I feel I am banging my head against a brick wall. I have never had such little direction and feel that I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Rant over!

    If anyone has any advice on the legal costs accountant route I would be very grateful.


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    #11
    kizzyf
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭kizzyf


    I know a lot of people who have taken up research positions and love them. The Gazette run an article each month I think about Solicitors who are working in different roles now. Might give some insight.
    Being a Solicitor is very stressful, underpaid and can be unrewarding in many ways. I would advise anyone who is only at FE1 stage to reconsider as the jobs just aren't out there now.

    Moving away is a great idea and can be quite beneficial. I'd highly recommend it.


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    #12
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    kizzyf wrote: »
    The Gazette run an article each month I think about Solicitors who are working in different roles now. Might give some insight.

    To be honest, a lot of those "Outlaws" pieces are profiling people who qualified years ago and have never worked as a solicitor: eg furniture store manager, poet, sports psychologist, novelist etc.

    As the esteemed moustachioed one said a while back, "would it be accurate to describe Miriam O'Callaghan as an unemployed solicitor?". Well, yes: unemployed 'no', but also solicitor 'no'.

    On the other hand, the career support columns seem to be labouring under the belief that simply getting your parchment qualifies you to be Taoiseach, the Pope and the Dalai Lama all in one...


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    #13
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    How about employment law? One of the weathiest people I know works in that field.


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    #14
    Scarlet 27
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Scarlet 27


    Hi, I am due to qualify as a solicitor in December and I am fully aware of the non existent job market for NQ solicitors here. I think there is a possibility that I will be kept on where I am but I would imagine my pay would be minimal and I am not keen to stay on in my current firm, so I would prefer to hear some feed back on what other people have done upon qualifying and I was wondering if people have successful moved into other areas or if they had found work abroad?


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    #15
    shaneybaby
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shaneybaby


    Scarlet 27 wrote: »
    Hi, I am due to qualify as a solicitor in December and I am fully aware of the non existent job market for NQ solicitors here. I think there is a possibility that I will be kept on where I am but I would imagine my pay would be minimal and I am not keen to stay on in my current firm, so I would prefer to hear some feed back on what other people have done upon qualifying and I was wondering if people have successful moved into other areas or if they had found work abroad?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73232953


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    #16
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Threads merged from post #14.


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    #17
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Just as an update, I'm currently in the process of having my education and credentials here evaluated by the World Education Services (http://www.wes.org/) which is a requirement for any U.S. Bar (obviously check with each state's bar, but it seems to be the one that is the most universally accepted) other than California and New York (who automatically accept many Irish LL.B. or BCL degrees).

    It's not too much of a hassle really, you send them copies of your degrees along with having your academic records sent. If your degree is in Irish, or Latin (as the King's Inns ones are) then you need to either pay for a translation service of their choosing or try to get your college/institution to send them an official word-for-word translation.
    You also pay them $160 which isn't too bad.

    I'm currently at the stage where I've paid and copies have been sent off. Just waiting on King's Inns to send records and the translation from Latin to English.

    I don't expect to encounter any difficulties, just in case I sent them my most recent Practising Certificate from the Bar Council which expires at the end of September.
    Once they get my KI records and the translation it should only take 7 days.

    I'm actually going off to the U.S. this week for a holiday/job feelers, so I'll keep you posted.


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    #18
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    So... I'm in the US a while now and things are going pretty well. A lot to think about when I get home and go back to work. One of the big thing I'll say off the bat is money - they talk money... no beating around the bush; look into what wages are in cities you're interested in! These guys will bluntly ask you how much you're looking to make, and how much you're making now (barristers: any of you should be able to create some skilled answer for this ;)).

    A lot of people are VERY interested in the split profession... be able to explain a fairly complex scenario such as that succinctly and appropriately. The first time I had to do it, I think I was relying too heavily on complex analogies. I'd also say don't be afraid to explain what is wrong with Ireland at the moment... it's almost easier to say "well, you've heard about the economic troubles in Ireland" than to say "well, I'm not making enough/any money at the moment".... It may sound like simple interviewing technique, but for some of us that have never really had proper interviews for legal positions, it is a clear "situation" over "personal" issue that makes you look much stronger stateside IMO.

    The USA is also very similar to Ireland in that it's who you know. Yes, honours TCD students can get a good interview with firms in the US. But a 2.2 from a private college who knows someone will still always meet with the managing partner. It's life.
    I think a good outlook on this part is to play up your lack of connections if you find yourself in this position. I have to be honest... I was not in this position, so I could be talking out of my arse, BUT I have heard this from a few people who are looking for jobs in the US/Canada that have no connections.

    Overall, I'm positive about the experience... I'm leaving with no offers, but I was straight up about my desire to remain in Ireland if I can economically. I have two, maybe three firms that I think are interested if I pass the bar in that state and that's a success in my book - I doubt they're going to commit without that, so it's interesting.

    I hope and plan on staying in my job in Ireland for a long life, but this trip has made me feel much better about the US as a live/work situation (which I've always been very reluctant to do) and I hope that this post can serve those that have any issues.

    Sorry I haven't been around much the last month moderating, but if anyone has any questions about bar exams or interviewing as a law grad or professional lawyer in the USA or Canada... please feel free to ask or PM!


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    #19
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    poul111 wrote: »
    Good article this month in the Gazette to go to OZ and work, sometimes it sounds like a crazy outback kinda stuff, but I went to talk to him for a couple of weeks ago and made it quite interesting. Approximately 20/30 people.
    I had kind of heard something about that; kind of as if the jobs were "abundant" but REALLY in the middle of nowhere town-wise?


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    #20
    shaneybaby
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shaneybaby


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I had kind of heard something about that; kind of as if the jobs were "abundant" but REALLY in the middle of nowhere town-wise?
    That was my post from earlier copied...dunno what that is about. i'll pm you details there if you like, i got an email from them only this morning!


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    #21
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Another update. My credentials have been evaluated and now it's up for the board of bar examiners to determine whether or not I'm eligible to sit the exam in February.

    Tomorrow I have to swear 4 affidavits and get a fingerprint card done as well as get King's Inns to send another letter verifying that I qualified and then I'm finished finally wading through the red tape!

    BTW: if any solicitor or commissioner for oaths is around the Four Courts tomorrow, I'd be very obliged for assistance in swearing my affidavits :D


    So long as everything is in order, I'll be flying over for the exams in February!



    I still don't want to leave, but things are looking even more gloomy this year than last; hopefully things turn around. I may also look for in-house jobs here, but it's always good to keep my options open.


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    #22
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    In relation to going to Australia just what are the chances of getting a decent visa , by that I mean a visa that permits working but is NOT a Working Holiday visa ?
    On another thread someone posted the Australian government figures on visas granted to Irish people and the figure was a lot lower than I expected , the media here tend to lump all visas in together when the fact is that the Working Holiday visa which is the most numerous type and easiest to get is by all accounts not that attractive to a lot of Australian employers.


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    #23
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Delancey wrote: »
    In relation to going to Australia just what are the chances of getting a decent visa , by that I mean a visa that permits working but is NOT a Working Holiday visa ?
    On another thread someone posted the Australian government figures on visas granted to Irish people and the figure was a lot lower than I expected , the media here tend to lump all visas in together when the fact is that the Working Holiday visa which is the most numerous type and easiest to get is by all accounts not that attractive to a lot of Australian employers.
    I think the correct visa for Australia is the Employer Nomination Scheme.

    I'm lucky enough with applying to the US that my dad worked there when I was younger and I got a citizenship. I have heard that places like Australia and Canada are actively seeking immigrants though, so tbh I'm not positive of the difficulties.


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    #24
    whydoibother?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭whydoibother?


    I can't really make sense of the situation for Irish lawyers/law graduates looking to move to Australia. I did a working holiday visa, but didn't do any kind of legal work. I did hear from a few people that law is a very, very competitive thing to get into there and there did seem to be huge number of Australian graduates seeking jobs/work experience from the little I looked into it. On the other hand, both barrister and solicitor are listed on the Australian skills list. I heard an explanation somewhere recently that the demand would be in really remote places, which is what would seem to make the most sense. Also, I was there at the worst point of the recession, so things may well have changed.


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    #25
    shaneybaby
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shaneybaby


    whydoibother? wrote: »
    I can't really make sense of the situation for Irish lawyers/law graduates looking to move to Australia. I did a working holiday visa, but didn't do any kind of legal work. I did hear from a few people that law is a very, very competitive thing to get into there and there did seem to be huge number of Australian graduates seeking jobs/work experience from the little I looked into it. On the other hand, both barrister and solicitor are listed on the Australian skills list. I heard an explanation somewhere recently that the demand would be in really remote places, which is what would seem to make the most sense. Also, I was there at the worst point of the recession, so things may well have changed.

    At theat lecture referred to earlier they basically said there are jobs if you move outside sydney, melbourne and brisbane. I'm not sure i could stick being out in the wilderness as i was born and grew up in the city but considering so many country practices here are having a hard time it might not be a bad way to spend a few years....


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    #26
    shaneybaby
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shaneybaby


    Anyone have any experience or heard of people trying to qualify in Australia (specifically western Australia) as a solicitor if they are qualified as one here but DON'T have a law degree. by the looks of things i'm precluded from practising :(


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    #27
    kronsington
    Registered Users Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭kronsington


    i spoke with keith o malley in the law society and he said to me more and more newly qualifieds/trainees are coming into them asking for advice about changing careers or what areas the legal qualification might aid in getting into. is anyone thinking about getting into a new career with the help of their qualification or heard of anyone who has done so? im open to anything at this stage and hope to move abroad in a couple of months. pretty disillusioned the legal profession. after all the expense, time, energy and everything else that went into it- it just doesnt feel worth it. i'd like to think that being a qualified solicitor and that the skills learned, experienced gained might be transferable to other areas. i have to really narrow it down and think about it. any thoughts? basically ive had enough of law. was never going to quit but now that ive nearly qualified im seriously thinking on doing something else


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    #28
    johnfás
    Registered Users Posts: 1,340 ✭✭✭johnfás


    Your transferable skills are really going to depend on your experience to date so it would surely be very difficult to generalise. Somebody who has worked in a large commercial practice could probably get a job in a non legal role in IFSC finance operations whereas somebody with a smaller general practice experience could probably do quite well in HR.


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    #29
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Sorry to hear of your disillusionment Kronsington but is it a case you are pissed off with the actual work or what?

    Are you not being kept on post qualification?


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    #30
    kronsington
    Registered Users Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭kronsington


    McCrack wrote: »
    Sorry to hear of your disillusionment Kronsington but is it a case you are pissed off with the actual work or what?

    Are you not being kept on post qualification?

    dont know my exact status yet. there's a fairly high chance ill be out in april when my indentures expire. there's a partners meeting to discuss it soon and ill know then. i had hoped to get 6 months or so under my belt from april, giving me a decent period of pqe and also giving some breathing space in trying to find a new job/prepare for moving abroad and alleviating the immediate pressure that comes with that.

    disillusioned in general. if i had my time over again there isnt a chance i'd go down this road. the stress, **** money, lousy job prospects- just isnt worth it. maybe im just tired of living in ireland. a fresh start is probably needed. right now, im weighing up every possible potential opportunity/option


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    #31
    mitzicat
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭mitzicat


    NoQuarter wrote: »
    Not exactly what you asked but I know a newly qualified solicitor who just moved to Toronto and has found work with a law firm over there!

    Really? By newly qualified, do you mean completed the Fe1s, or completed the training contract? Do you know what he/she had to go through to get accredited over there?


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