[MagicSean]

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

Really? Well let's think about that.

The CIA knew that the compound didn't have a transient population and that the only person who left regularly was al Kuwaiti. They also knew that other people didn't visit the compound. Therefore, if your theory is correct, the CIA were interested enough in the current occupants of the compound to authorise collection of their DNA profiles.

Why then were the American seals given amended rules of engagement allowing them to kill anyone who got in their way whether or not they showed a credible threat? Obviously the CIA didn't think the residents were that high value to not even make an attempt to capture them. Five people were killed that night. Only one was armed.

Maybe they didn't have enough room in the chopper. Or maybe the DNA profiles showed that there were no other high value targets.

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

Or perhaps you think the DNA collection was to ensure they killed the right Osama? Well, despite what Gibbs and the rest of the NCIS team would have you believe, DNA is useless without something to compare it to. So you have to wonder what DNA evidence the Americans used to positively ID the corpse. Did they do a quick swab of the other residents of the house while holding them at gun point? Nope. They compared his DNA to samples collected from his sister who had died of brain cancer several years beforehand while in Boston and whose remains had been subpoenaed and stored by the American authorities.

Really there was no point to such a dangerous operation unless, well I dunno but maybe the CIA loves polio and doesn't want to see it eradicated.

It was you who suggested the DNA was to identify his body afterwards a few posts back. I belueved it was to identify who was in the compound and around it.

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

You may not doubt it but you don't seem to understand that the damage to other programs is what's dangerous.

I understand it, it just doesn't bother me. If someone is too stupid to accept medical help because they are afriad of the big bad CIA then that's their problem. There's always someone else who can use it.

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

Obviously if a person believes they are vaccinated to a certain threat they become less aware of that threat. That's just common sense.

No, that's just stupidity.

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

It takes three genuine doses to become vaccinated. They only administered one. Therefore it doesn't matter if it was genuine or not. It wouldn't work

It can still be followed up with the next two. If they had no intention of following up why would they waste the money using a proper vaccine?

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by jank

Very nice morals you have, oh sorry your (sic) an atheist!

Thank you, but enough about me already.

Do you have any opinion on the matter that is the subject of this thread? Did that doctor who violated his Hippocratic oath (or the Muslim equivalent thereof) and committed treason against his country, which is de facto at war, deserve his relatively lenient sentence (given that he could have been sent to the gallows) or should he be allowed to walk free and perhaps further undermine public trust in disease-prevention programmes.

Do you believe anyone who commits treason should get away with it just because their actions benefit the USA?

If a Pakistani who has the plans to this little gadget (see link below) were to pass them on to the USA or India (in the interests of world peace, naturally), should he get a medal rather than the hangman's rope?

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/...ble-short.html

[MagicSean]

Originally Posted by wes

The fact that the families vaccinated, didn't bring up the issue themselves, show that they taught there children were vaccinated. They surely would have complained about the lack of a follow up.

They clearly didn't know, as they 2nd part was meant to be distrubuted after a month.

They may need the full course, I have no idea how one would need to proceed in this sort of situation.

Originally Posted by wes

The fact that they never came back proves you wrong.

Of course they didn't come back. Their doctor was prosecuted for treason. He's in jail.

Originally Posted by wes

More excuses for medical malpractice I see. They moved on to another area. They clearly had 0 intention of ever coming back. Otherwise, they would have shown up on time.

So if you were getting this vaccine you would expect the doctor to stay with you for a month until you were ready for your second shot? No I think you would go about your regular life and come back to him after the month was up.

Originally Posted by wes

I am sorry, but this is utterly absurd statement to make. You have defended there deplorable actions, with excuse after excuse for several posts. If you going to defend this sort of nonsense, at least admit to it.

Originally Posted by wes

And yet you have made multiple posts doing exactly that. Seriously, this is some comedy stuff right there.

Originally Posted by wes

I dislike people who defend people who use endager children.

I don't know why you felt the need to split this paragraph up. I haven't been defending the DNA program. I've been pointing out the flaw in your assessment of the vaccination program as a cover. Two different aspects of the situation.

Originally Posted by wes

Yes, they are. They taught there were vaccinated. There parents may not allow them to get vacinated again due to this. They have been endangers. Doctors without Borders, have said very clearly what damage was done.

The fact is that clearly putting Pakistani children in danger is not an issue for you, is rather disgusting. You have spent several posts defending the indefensible and then claim you weren't. Truly astonishing nonsense right there. If you want to defend the CIA, and there dodgy crap, then at least have the decency to admit to it.

Even someone who receives the full course does not automatically become immune. They must be tested to confirm it. You are saying they thought they were fully vaccinated but there is nothing at all to suggest they weren't aware the course was incomplete. It's just an assumption you are making. Even if you are fully vaccinated, it doesn't mean you can go out and get your hepatitis b infected friend to spit in your mouth or become blood brothers. You still need to take the exact same precautions as before.

So no, nobody is any worse off.

[wes]

Originally Posted by MagicSean

Of course they didn't come back. Their doctor was prosecuted for treason. He's in jail.

He could have come back before that, but he chose not too. Again, the entire program was a fake. He had no intention of ever coming back, hence why they moved on and never came back.

Also, he was not the only one who was a part of the program. Surely, if it was a real program, the other people who are not in jail would have come back, and yet they never did. Do you really think there was only one person who was a part of the program. If the program was real, why did it no continue?

Originally Posted by MagicSean

So if you were getting this vaccine you would expect the doctor to stay with you for a month until you were ready for your second shot? No I think you would go about your regular life and come back to him after the month was up.

They didn't come back, as the entire program was a fake.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

I don't know why you felt the need to split this paragraph up. I haven't been defending the DNA program. I've been pointing out the flaw in your assessment of the vaccination program as a cover. Two different aspects of the situation.

You are making excuses for medical malpractive, and violationg of the hippocratic oath, and have done so again and again.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

So no, nobody is any worse off.

So your excuses is that they are not worse off. Again, they taught they were vacinated, and may very well never get vaccinated as there parent won't trust any future programs. So yes, they are worse off. As those children probably won't ever get vaccinated against anything now, due to there parent distrusting such programs. Seems pretty clear that they are worse off, and that there will be a lot of damage done by this fake program.

[Unavailable for Comment]

Originally Posted by MagicSean

Maybe they didn't have enough room in the chopper. Or maybe the DNA profiles showed that there were no other high value targets.

They didn't get any DNA profiles. The operation was a complete failure yet they still went in guns blazing. Obviously they weren't too concerned with who lived there. Jeez how hard is that to grasp?

Originally Posted by MagicSean

It was you who suggested the DNA was to identify his body afterwards a few posts back. I belueved it was to identify who was in the compound and around it.

Actually I was pointing out how unnecessary it was if that was the motive when they had access to other, better methods of getting DNA.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

I understand it, it just doesn't bother me. If someone is too stupid to accept medical help because they are afriad of the big bad CIA then that's their problem. There's always someone else who can use it.

I'm sure your pithy messages of goodwill will be of great comfort to the innumerable children and females who are not in a position to make a choice for themselves and will have to forego vaccination as their patriarchal society loses all faith in western benevolence. Still who cares about them right? It's not like they're Americans.

Also obviously NCIS hasn't covered how doctors eradicate diseases like polio yet but suffice to say we have to vaccinate pretty much everybody. The more holdouts the more difficult it becomes. So yeah it does have a big impact.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

No, that's just stupidity.

I agree. Yours.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

It can still be followed up with the next two. If they had no intention of following up why would they waste the money using a proper vaccine?

Seriously? Why would they waste the money? Because the Pakistani health board might wonder why some dude is wandering around giving doses of saline solution to people. The cost would be on a par so it would be a better cover story to use the genuine article.

Honestly I know the NCIS TV show has trained you to have an inquiring mind and ask questions but please try using your own common sense.

[MagicSean]

Originally Posted by wes

He could have come back before that, but he chose not too. Again, the entire program was a fake. He had no intention of ever coming back, hence why they moved on and never came back.

Also, he was not the only one who was a part of the program. Surely, if it was a real program, the other people who are not in jail would have come back, and yet they never did. Do you really think there was only one person who was a part of the program. If the program was real, why did it no continue?

Because they would have been considered complicit.

Originally Posted by wes

They didn't come back, as the entire program was a fake.

Not the entire program. The vaccine was real.

Originally Posted by wes

You are making excuses for medical malpractive, and violationg of the hippocratic oath, and have done so again and again.

There are two seperate issues here. One is the morality of collecting DNA in secret. The second is the use of a vaccine program as a cover for something else. You are just incapable of seperating the issues.

Originally Posted by wes

So your excuses is that they are not worse off. Again, they taught they were vacinated, and may very well never get vaccinated as there parent won't trust any future programs. So yes, they are worse off. As those children probably won't ever get vaccinated against anything now, due to there parent distrusting such programs. Seems pretty clear that they are worse off, and that there will be a lot of damage done by this fake program.

No they are not worse off. You obviously don't know what that means. They are in exactly the same position as if no vaccine program ever came to their village.

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

They didn't get any DNA profiles. The operation was a complete failure yet they still went in guns blazing. Obviously they weren't too concerned with who lived there. Jeez how hard is that to grasp?

How do you know what DNA information they got? You have a direct link to the CIA mainframe?

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

Actually I was pointing out how unnecessary it was if that was the motive when they had access to other, better methods of getting DNA.

And I was pointing out that there are much bigger reasons for building up a DNA profile of an area.

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

I'm sure your pithy messages of goodwill will be of great comfort to the innumerable children and females who are not in a position to make a choice for themselves and will have to forego vaccination as their patriarchal society loses all faith in western benevolence. Still who cares about them right? It's not like they're Americans.

It's the leaders of these patriarchal societies that are to blame. If a woman doesn't have a right to get her own vaccine from the big bad americans then that is the fault of her restrictive government who limit her rights and not the fault of the doctor they don't trust.

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

Also obviously NCIS hasn't covered how doctors eradicate diseases like polio yet but suffice to say we have to vaccinate pretty much everybody. The more holdouts the more difficult it becomes. So yeah it does have a big impact.

Why do you keep talking about polio?

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

I agree. Yours.

Best you can do?

Originally Posted by Unavailable for Comment

Seriously? Why would they waste the money? Because the Pakistani health board might wonder why some dude is wandering around giving doses of saline solution to people. The cost would be on a par so it would be a better cover story to use the genuine article.

If the pakistani health board was in any way useful then they wouldn't need groups to come in and vaccinate their people.

[Zab]

Just because you dislike the "won't sombody think of the children" approach doesn't mean you have to try to argue against everything that you're arguing against. What the doctor did was wrong and would have been wrong if the patients were adults too.

[wes]

Originally Posted by MagicSean

Because they would have been considered complicit.

Why would be considered complicit after administering the other needed doses? Surely, completing the program, would actually show that they didn't know about the whole DNA harvesting business.

Sorry, but you excuse make 0 sense. Its very clear they had no intention of ever returning. Otherwise they would have done exactly that after a month or so.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

Not the entire program. The vaccine was real.

Yes, the entire program was fake, as they didn't give them all 3 doses. Again, another excuse for medical malpractice.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

There are two seperate issues here. One is the morality of collecting DNA in secret. The second is the use of a vaccine program as a cover for something else. You are just incapable of seperating the issues.

It was all the one program. I see no reason to seperate them.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

No they are not worse off.

Yes, they are, as they probably won't be vaccinated for anything else, do to mistrusting those giving them out.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

You obviously don't know what that means.

I most certainly do know what that means. You are just making excuses for these clowns.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

They are in exactly the same position as if no vaccine program ever came to their village.

No, there not. They are now going to not trust people offering vaccines.
So now these children probably won't be vaccinated. So, they most certainly are worse off. To pretend that there is no effect is an utterly silly excuse. Again, another excuse for these clowns.

I will refer again to what Doctors without Borders said. So until you can show me how you know better than them, or have some proof to show there statements to be wrong, I think it fair to say you don't have a leg to stand on.

[Unavailable for Comment]

Originally Posted by MagicSean

Because they would have been considered complicit.

Wrong. They have already admitted their part and weren't censured as they believed they were taking part in a genuine vaccination programme.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

Not the entire program. The vaccine was real.

Wrong. As the vaccine did not vaccinate than by definition it was not real. Obviously if the patients had options to get this elsewhere they would have gone there so it follows that they are not able to receive the remaining doses. Therefore the entire programme was not genuine.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

There are two seperate issues here. One is the morality of collecting DNA in secret. The second is the use of a vaccine program as a cover for something else. You are just incapable of seperating the issues.

There is one issue. Is it justifiable to allow a corrupt doctor to fake a vaccination programme to breach people's right to bodily integrity to gather unnecessary information while disregarding the obvious dangers such a ploy would present to ongoing genuine vaccination efforts in the area?

Originally Posted by MagicSean

No they are not worse off. You obviously don't know what that means. They are in exactly the same position as if no vaccine program ever came to their village.

This has been disproven by everyone so far. Please, please keep up.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

How do you know what DNA information they got? You have a direct link to the CIA mainframe?

No but nor am I the sort of genius who cites NCIS as evidence. Anyway as to my statement my first clue was when the CIA admitted that they were unable to get any evidence of any value through the programme.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

And I was pointing out that there are much bigger reasons for building up a DNA profile of an area.

And I was laughing at your naivete in basing your knowledge of DNA collection and it's investigative properties on fictional TV shows.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

It's the leaders of these patriarchal societies that are to blame. If a woman doesn't have a right to get her own vaccine from the big bad americans then that is the fault of her restrictive government who limit her rights and not the fault of the doctor they don't trust.

I'm sure your pithy statements on equal rights for all genders will be of comfort to the women and children at the mercy of this patriarchal society as their limbs flop aimlessly with polio.

"Magicsean thinks my government is bold. That somehow makes me feel better", they'll whisper as the paralysis creeps in.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

Why do you keep talking about polio?

Because I thought you had the ability to follow a cogent argument. Do you really not understand how the polio vaccination is crucial to all this? Let me see if I can make it clearer for you:

Because the bold CIA's bold trick it's much harder for real doctors to make people feel better.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

Best you can do?

I call it as I see it.

Originally Posted by MagicSean

If the pakistani health board was in any way useful then they wouldn't need groups to come in and vaccinate their people.

What has that got to do with anything? Ifs and buts are of no value here. Deal with the facts as they stand. Those facts are frankly terrible. You are attempting to defend the indefensible.