Grassroots FF and the renewal of the party

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Meh, whatever. That's your interpretation of things. You asked for some of the core aspects of the party and those are they.

OK I'll take a stab at it then (for transparency, I've no loyalty to any party. I'll vote for whoever I believe will actually get the job done - not line their own pockets or who performs to what I like to call the "ah shure it'll be grand" approach that is so prevalent throughout any and all branches of Irish government and state generally). Perhaps you'll have a more "detailed" response than above?

You gave us the "core beliefs" of FF as they stand today. You also mention that these are under review so maybe now is in fact an ideal time for us to address some of these...


(i) The whole United Ireland/800 years angle needs to go. Never mind that we have enough problems of our own without trying to take on responsibility for another state, where's the evidence (from both sides of the border) that says this is what the people actually want?

The facts are that when Ireland was split in two, it was a reflection of how statecraft was conducted in those times - where occupation and conquering other nations was viewed as an acceptable means of expansion. That isn't to say it was "right" or diminishes the suffering and loss (on both sides to be fair), it's merely acknowledging that that's how it was back then.

We (as a race) have now evolved beyond this - at least those of us in the so-called developed world think we have, and the successful visit of the Queen, the ending of the Troubles, establishment of the Assembly and so on is proof that we have learned other ways to resolve our problems. Yes I know that sounds a bit clichéd, but my point is that FF need to move on from the past in this regard too.


(ii) The Irish language is technically dead and has been for many years, kept alive only through state subsidy (that we can now ill afford) and a Celtic Tiger era "fad" for the language that has now also died out.

I'm not saying kill it off, but it needs to be removed as a mandatory subject from our schools (as does the teaching of the Catholic religion in our increasingly secular/multi-faith country - in addition to the well documented reasons why that faith deserves NO official sponsorship after the damage it's done to countless lives).

Again, I'm not suggesting it should be banned or something but it belongs in the home (like the teaching of Irish). If you want your children to be raised as Irish speaking Catholics then by all means do so.. but do it yourself with support from your Church and your community (as a side note it wouldn't hurt many Irish parents to take a more active role in their children's education anyway) and replace both subjects with increased focus on literacy (for example), and European languages.

I spent a few years in Holland as a child and while the kids I started school with here were being forced to learn a language most of them can't string a sentence together in, my classmates in Amsterdam had fluency in Dutch, English and usually 2/3 other languages as well. No wonder then that the Google's and Microsoft's have to go abroad to get these skills while our own people sit on the shelf.


(iv) Shell to Sea (as but one example) anyone? How does this fit with the idea of "To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland"


(v) I think this one is equally obvious - massive rezoning of land for over development / planning tribunals etc. Need I go on?


(vii) I think our "obligations" to Europe (as we're so often reminded were the doing of FF), and the resultant enforced austerity, the German parliament getting first look at OUR national Budget and so on prove "Irish Sovereignty" has long been sold off.


When FF can come back to the Irish People with a realistic, achievable plan as to how these objectives can be met, with defined targets and metrics for judging the success of same, and equally clear penalties or consequences for failure, THEN I think we can talk about the party having achieved a "Grass Roots" reform - I'd add to this a zero-tolerance policy on corruption, parish-pump governance and general gombeenism.

Until then it's just more spin and propaganda and we are getting more than enough of that from Enda and his merry men at the moment thanks very much.

raymon wrote: »

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FG and Labour stand for one thing right now ...... getting us out of the mess .

That's the core value I will judge them on.

As I said before I have mixed views on their success.
For example property tax on properties dropping in value is not good economics.
However I feel that Noonan will get the Anglo debt sorted.
I also said it is too early to judge and I do believe we have had a narrow escape from the cliff ledge that FF put us on .

So let's get back on track here : on the subject of FF core values can anyone name one that FF have demonstrated. A real one this time.??

As they are basically implementing a plan agreed by Fianna Fail, could it not be said that is the aim of FF as well?FF always wanted the less well off in society looked after, hence 4 times as many SNA's now as in 1997 despite the cutbacks

raymon wrote: »

The thread for me has been very informative

The consensus with FF members is that the party stand for the following



1. Fianna Fáil is a National Movement. Its aims are:-


(i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people.


(ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.


(iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.


(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.


(v) To protect the natural environment and heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain as many families as practicable on the land.


(vi) To promote the family, and a wider sense of social responsibility, and to uphold the rule of law in the interest of the welfare and safety of the public.


(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland’s independent foreign policy tradition.


(viii) To reform the laws and institutions of State, to make them efficient, humane, caring and responsive to the needs of the citizen.

I don't believe that any of these are valid in the FF of today.

Like I said, you don't agree and that is your prerogative but you had made that conclusion before you started this thread !

Does your thread have any other purpose ?

i do admire o cuive for standing up for what he beleive in,

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

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Don't worry raymon - the renewal is well underway, although I suspect that you will be disappointed to hear that. I actually took part in a canvass with the party this week, where I was out knocking on doors with the largest group of members that I have been with on a canvass over the last six years. It was actually my first proper community door knock canvass since the last General Election campaign and I am pleased to report that the hostility towards FF has subsided quite considerably - with people on the doors being quite open to discussing matters with FF reps and put forward their concerns that need addressing. Again, I am assuming that the fact that the electorate is willing to engage with FF once again is likely to greatly disappoint you.

TBH SO I would take any love for FF with a pinch of salt, the public will gripe at the current Government and moan to who will listen. FF are offering what on the doorsteps? The current coalition are trying to fix the current inherited problems. It would be no harm for FF, or the country, for FF to be out of office for at least 2 terms IMO, so that a) it can come to terms with itself and set new standards and coherent policies and b) allow the country to be put on its feet again.