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The Junior Cycle? What's happening?

  • 16-09-2014 2:58pm
    #1
    marilynhappy
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭


    Hi all.

    I am currently teaching abroad with the hope of returning to Ireland when I can get a secondary teaching job (circa 2070 undoubtedly). Seriously though, I am keen on applying to suitable jobs when I can but also, making sure, until then, I'm aware of developments.

    Sorry to ask a silly question- but is the Framework for Junior Cycle currently being implemented in your school? Are students in first year part of the new course this year? Is this just in core subjects? Will students in 2017 be assessed in terms of the new JC?

    Is any of this actually happening now, or have teachers decided not to implement the new curriculum? Sorry if this is all obvious- I feel like I've been living in a cave- I'd love to be enlightened on what's actually happening in schools.


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Comments

  • #2
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    I'm not a teacher and no authority, but I have a kid starting in secondary this year. What we have been told so far is the English paper will change when our kids do the junior in 2017. At the moment no other news on the other subjects.
    My guess is they will change all the other subjects but when I haven't heard


  • #3
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    marilynhappy wrote: »
    Hi all.

    I am currently teaching abroad with the hope of returning to Ireland when I can get a secondary teaching job (circa 2070 undoubtedly). Seriously though, I am keen on applying to suitable jobs when I can but also, making sure, until then, I'm aware of developments.

    Sorry to ask a silly question- but is the Framework for Junior Cycle currently being implemented in your school? Are students in first year part of the new course this year? Is this just in core subjects? Will students in 2017 be assessed in terms of the new JC?

    Is any of this actually happening now, or have teachers decided not to implement the new curriculum? Sorry if this is all obvious- I feel like I've been living in a cave- I'd love to be enlightened on what's actually happening in schools.

    Union directive of non cooperation with new JC proposals. English was the first subject to be implimented but I think teachers can chose their own texts anyway so they might chose from the same list. As regards co operation with working towards assessing your own pupils... thats a big nono.


  • #4
    marilynhappy
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭marilynhappy


    Thanks Armelodie. So do you mind me asking- if individual teachers don't cooperate with the proposal for teacher assessment of pupils- can their schools act? Are schools divided?
    Or is most school management in the country "with" the teachers on this and likely to back them up in their views?
    I know you don't have a crystal ball on this one- but I'm just wondering if the new Junior Cycle will actually happen in the given timeframe.


  • #5
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,103 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Anyone with the slightest interest in education should be with the teachers on this one.


  • #6
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    My kids will be involved as they will be the first to do the new curriculum. The school can't say if next yr they change another subject and if that will be in the 2017 exam !! But the feedback, from a parents perspective is this is happening and schools/teachers will have to get on board. Our rankings against europeen's is dropping, especially in Maths, which is why I'm guessing this is being forced.


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  • #7
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Gerry T wrote: »
    My kids will be involved as they will be the first to do the new curriculum. The school can't say if next yr they change another subject and if that will be in the 2017 exam !! But the feedback, from a parents perspective is this is happening and schools/teachers will have to get on board. Our rankings against europeen's is dropping, especially in Maths, which is why I'm guessing this is being forced.

    Maths has literally only been changed. Our rankings are not dropping based on the most recent PISA report here

    If you are a parent you really need to read up on what is being proposed. This has been tried and failed in other countries, most notably in England arguably our most comparable country in terms of demographic and location. This is not about teachers "getting on board", this is teachers standing against something that has provably not worked in other countries and attempting to stop the Dept of Education implementing changes where the primary motivator appears to be the reduction in costs to them.


  • #8
    Terri26
    Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭Terri26


    Gerry T wrote: »
    My kids will be involved as they will be the first to do the new curriculum. The school can't say if next yr they change another subject and if that will be in the 2017 exam !! But the feedback, from a parents perspective is this is happening and schools/teachers will have to get on board. Our rankings against europeen's is dropping, especially in Maths, which is why I'm guessing this is being forced.

    Don't believe the propaganda. We're currently 4th out of 34 in literacy (in OECD countires)


  • #9
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Terri26 wrote: »
    Don't believe the propaganda. We're currently 4th out of 34 in literacy (in OECD countires)


    Could there be ANY doubt we'd be on top in a per euro analysis !!!


  • #10
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭amacca


    Would giving teaching council number on a sheet (being used to sign up for training in the new junior cycle) count as co-operation?


  • #11
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    amacca wrote: »
    Would giving teaching council number on a sheet (being used to sign up for training in the new junior cycle) count as co-operation?

    You aren't supposed to go training?


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  • #12
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭amacca


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    You aren't supposed to go training?

    Thats what i thought….then why do they need numbers….shouldn't that wait until its clear what the outcomes are going to be?

    Or is there any point in OH even being in a union?

    Are powers that be trying a sneaky one?


  • #13
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Thats very odd tbh. I haven't been asked for my TC number. Is the OH sure it was for JC training? Apart from anything else the school and the dept are supposed to have your TC number to pay you so I'm not sure why they would need to ask for it


  • #14
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭amacca


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Is the OH sure it was for JC training?

    thats what she said anyway - ill question her more closely:D

    (although she's usually fairly accurate in fairness)


  • #15
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    It's quite clear from the union position re-issued yesterday ... HERE .

    Basically if the CPD mentions the term or has anything to do with the Junior Cycle Framework then it's a no-no.

    So technically as an English teacher you could go to an inservice on ...say .... "Teaching Shakespeare to Kids that don't want to learn" , but if it was couched within the lingo of outcomes/key skills/assessment of your pupils/New JC Framework then it would go against the spirit of the action.
    Inservices can go on as they've always done.. but not for new JC.


  • #16
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    You aren't supposed to go training?

    What's the issue with training ? if there is a training requirement then the respective teachers take training, or am I missing something ?

    IS there a stance by teachers that the new JC is not to be supported.


  • #17
    aratsarse101
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭aratsarse101


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    You aren't supposed to go training?

    I checked it out. There is no union directive against registering for training. So we all registered, but have no intention of going at the moment.


  • #18
    aratsarse101
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭aratsarse101


    Gerry T wrote: »

    IS there a stance by teachers that the new JC is not to be supported.

    Absolutely. It is flawed and not thought-out at all.


  • #19
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    aratsarse101 wrote: »
    Absolutely. It is flawed and not thought-out at all.

    Unfortunately with my kid starting in secondary this yr that puts him right in the middle of the debacle. From my perspective the change is coming no matter what teachers may say, but if teachers jump into the trenches and the Govt does the same thing it will only make matters worse.

    I gather Teachers were not asked or consulted in this change. So what, that happens to me in work all the time, in areas where I would regard myself as the subject matter expert. But that's life, **** gets thrown at you and you just have to make the best you can with it.

    The question has to be asked, what has happened historically, to make the Govt ignore the Teachers in this very important decision, what has been the outcome in the past that lead to Teachers not been brought to the table ? Fix that and a repeat of this situate may be prevented.


  • #20
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭acequion


    Ballot papers are starting to come in from the ASTI on if we agree to extend our industrial action to include a one day strike and further strike action. So time to roll up our sleeves folks and fight yet again to defend our education system. The vote has to be a YES.I only hope that those who caved in to HR grow a pair this time and continue to resist this farce.

    This notion that it's going ahead and that teachers must get on board is just more of the recent authoritarian /submission culture that will only lead us down the same road as England,where education is in a very bad place.

    The titanic was sinking too and staying on board meant you went down with it!


  • #21
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    aratsarse101 wrote: »
    I checked it out. There is no union directive against registering for training. So we all registered, but have no intention of going at the moment.

    See statement below about registering for training for new JC... Personally I think if you do register then the govt. can turn around and say "look we have all these teachers who 'want' to do this training (by registering) so its obvious that there are a significant number who support it". Non co-operation means non co-operation for a very good reason.


    School principals will have received a letter from the JCT (Junior Cycle for Teachers) asking them to register their school’s science teachers in advance of the Framework for Junior Cycle CPD for science teachers. Please note that registration of teachers for Framework CPD is covered by the ASTI Framework for Junior Cycle Directive. Therefore, principals who are members of the ASTI should not register science teachers as per this request...


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  • #22
    marilynhappy
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭marilynhappy


    Thanks for the comments everyone.This is a mess! Genuinely worried for the whole system- students, teachers and parents. Students are too important to be caught up in the middle of this with their education on the line- but students are also too important for teachers to be apathetic in this debate too.
    I don't know what to think!


  • #23
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    marilynhappy wrote: »
    Thanks for the comments everyone.This is a mess! Genuinely worried for the whole system- students, teachers and parents. Students are too important to be caught up in the middle of this with their education on the line- but students are also too important for teachers to be apathetic in this debate too.
    I don't know what to think!
    why no come home and change your name to marilynunhappy :)


  • #24
    marilynhappy
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭marilynhappy


    Haha I might. It might give me an edge in interviews!


  • #25
    happywithlife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    marilynhappy wrote: »
    Thanks for the comments everyone.This is a mess! Genuinely worried for the whole system- students, teachers and parents. Students are too important to be caught up in the middle of this with their education on the line- but students are also too important for teachers to be apathetic in this debate too.
    I don't know what to think!

    I agree but as for your last line

    Its clear (to me anyhow) that as teachers, we've consistently said we're not against the idea of the JCSA per say and god knows reform is badly overdue in some subject areas. But it's the way it's being implemented - rushed, incomplete and under resourced - is the main problem. That and the not insignificant stumbling block of self assessment 😏which in small town Ireland is a disaster waiting to happen and totally unworkable IMO
    But seen as how the gov are gung-ho on ignoring the completely legitimate concerns of the teaching body, resistance and non compliance are the only options open to us to slow this down till it can be done properly


  • #26
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    marilynhappy wrote: »
    Thanks for the comments everyone.This is a mess! Genuinely worried for the whole system- students, teachers and parents. Students are too important to be caught up in the middle of this with their education on the line- but students are also too important for teachers to be apathetic in this debate too.
    I don't know what to think!


    bare in mind though ,its not as if English classes have stopped. I see teachers prepping and correcting 1st years' work every day the same as they always have done.

    Teachers are actually looking after the students best interests by protesting... this is not about money , its about impartial validation of your childs work. This is Ireland, teachers and students deserve that anonymity... otherwise its open to the usual quiet word,nod of the head, pressure to guild the lilly...etc


  • #27
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Armelodie wrote: »
    bare in mind though ,its not as if English classes have stopped. I see teachers prepping and correcting 1st years' work every day the same as they always have done.

    Teachers are actually looking after the students best interests by protesting... this is not about money , its about impartial validation of your childs work. This is Ireland, teachers and students deserve that anonymity... otherwise its open to the usual quiet word,nod of the head, pressure to guild the lilly...etc

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/junior-cert-assessments-by-teachers-fair-expert-30589402.html
    The Chief Inspector was addressing the annual education conference of the Joint Managerial Body (JMB), which represents management in about 66pc of second-level schools. The conference was also addressed by Norman Emerson, recently appointed as the first Director of Assessment with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment.

    Mr Emerson said that 10-12 years ago Scotland was where Ireland is now, and summative testing was seen to be the "be all and end all", but now it had no formal assessment of children aged from three to 15.

    If it worked in Scotland then how can it not work here? After all, Scotland's population is not much higher than that of Ireland.


  • #28
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Gerry T wrote: »
    Unfortunately with my kid starting in secondary this yr that puts him right in the middle of the debacle. From my perspective the change is coming no matter what teachers may say, but if teachers jump into the trenches and the Govt does the same thing it will only make matters worse.
    Not necessarily. The JCSA English curriculum still has a terminal exam that constitutes 60% of the marks for the subject and which will be corrected by the SEC until the transition from the JC to the JCSA has been completed - if it goes according to plan. Therefore, if industrial action prevents the planned continuous assessment in English from taking place, the terminal exam will probably constitute 100% of the marks and students will still be prepared for the LC.


  • #29
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    endakenny wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/junior-cert-assessments-by-teachers-fair-expert-30589402.html

    Ya shock horror, 'expert' (he has a doctorate you know wot wot...) paid by the dept. says that the proposed assessment by teachers is fair.

    So what! it was mentioned in another thread what his agenda was..HERE. Funny that this was all done and dusted and shoved in front of the new ministers nose and put out before she even read it.

    Also the 'expert' said "... that teachers in other countries had shown that properly supported and moderated teacher assessment could identify levels of student performance just as effectively as external pen-and-paper tests. "

    Ahhhhh "properly supported" ????? in Ireland!!!

    and... Dr Hislop said that conventional tests and exams could not measure the achievement of many deeper skills or knowledge. Introducing an element of teacher-administered, school-based assessment may not give us a neat, simple number, but it could give us a richer set of information about the capability and learning successes of the student,"

    What is he raving on about 'a richer set of information..' ..who collates this information... the teacher/dept.? So after each grade is given by a teacher an indepth report is filed for each student and sent to the inspectors for collating.... that's thousands of pages worth of data from the whole country!! and all for what.. to see that 'outcomes' are being met!!

    He said it was "undeniably true that a considerable effort will be needed to improve teacher assessment skills" ... Oh great, more paperwork like the UK, every single pupil has to meet their 'targets' before a pay rise is given (no probs there... A's all around for my class..except that pupil that annoyed me every now and again.


    I also seem to remember the good Dr. talking about best international practice.... It's best international practice to have small class sizes too BTW!!
    endakenny wrote: »
    If it worked in Scotland then how can it not work here? After all, Scotland's population is not much higher than that of Ireland.

    Who said it worked in scotland??? Is Ireland resourced exactly the same as Scotland?

    And back to who collates all this 'rich' assessment information ...


  • #30
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭2011abc


    More money for their rich friends !


    There have been over 1600 NEW 'academies' set up in England in last TWO YEARS!


    From BBC website :



    "Teaching unions say it will fracture the state education system and open the door to privatisation - private providers already run large "chains" of schools.




    Labour says the changes will benefit more privileged neighbourhoods and that the best schools will be able to suck in the best teachers and resources, leaving those left under local authority control being regarded as second best."


    There are many today who will be feeling as if they have been vindicated for voting for HRA .They couldnt be more wrong .This is a smokescreen .Getting a teaching job or permanency in UK system isnt the problem its the devastated conditions that are literally killing off teachers over there .

    Who could have envisioned "Irish Water" three years ago ?The cost of a unit of gas trebled between 2001 and 2007 .

    A well known private school was put on the market today with the loss of between a quarter and a third of staff at drop of a hat .

    A new school being built here has been revealed to be paying bricklayers under a fiver an hour .

    Join the dots 'shoulder to the wheel' people ?!

    How long before "Irish Education" is set up ?


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  • #31
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Jan O'Sullivan has denied that the JCSA is a money-making exercise.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/o-sullivan-rejects-criticism-of-reforms-1.1924569
    “It isn’t going to save any money that I know of,” Ms O’Sullivan said. “I’ve never been told that it’s going to save money.”

    She is more diplomatic than her predecessor was.


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