Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Sparks · 19-12-2014 12:47am

yubabill1 wrote: »

The justice committee mentioned previous " round table discussions" and did not rule out a distinct possibility of something similar after committee.

Yeah, but I'd want to see the fine details. I think the AGS may have learnt their lesson from the FCP and would oppose a repeat of it.

bpb101 · 19-12-2014 10:19am

National newspaper ain't cheep at all lads. Your talking 20,000 grand for maybe the Sunday papers.
I know labour ****ed away 25,000 grand to have eimer Costello ugly muck smered across my morning metro herald last may

I do agree with the idea though.

Like guns are dangerous all right in the hands of a mad man, but i think what the media never seem to realise is that , criminals are still going to murder people. That ain't going to change .

I think if ags gave a single fûck about public saftey it would be a criminal offence to carry knives or the famous sharpened screwdrivers in public espcially at night. Because the local druggy who has been convicted for assault on several occasions ain't going out to work at 3 am( well work in the traditional sense) and its highly unlikely that he needs a switch blade to go out fishing.

The report mentions the 2 brothers who were gunned down near Lucan there in 2010 or something and one of the 2 guns used was robbed . They fail to mention the other gun was illegally imported . And let's face it. If they didnt have the robbed licenced gun , they would have still killed them.

In some states in American what they do is when you get your gun , within a week or so you go into the local cop shop and you fire the gun and give them the round. They then computerise the ballistics.
So if somebody shoots somebody they check who gun the bullet came from and they go knocking.
However that would probable cost. 3.5 billion to make that sort of system here .because of course we need to have Dennis o Brian as a consultant on the matter .

I think if they done that here most shooters wouldn't even charge the guards for the round.

One thing that has to be said is that they are trying to bring out these new laws for the simple reason of
Bad police work

If your convicted of armed robbery murder , attempted murder , assault , home invasions , tiger kidnapping or drug dealing you should be trown in jail and the key trown away, not being told , " here don't do that again now or you may MAY get a strong word told to you by the judge "

That's how you get crime off the street . And also maybe put guards on the street not hiding behind bushes on moterways with speed guns.

Rant end.

Sparks · 19-12-2014 12:06pm

bpb101 wrote: »

National newspaper ain't cheep at all lads. Your talking 20,000 grand for maybe the Sunday papers.

And then endless recriminations from the day of publication until we all die about whomever drafted it was obviously selling out one side to save another.
We're sadly predictable in some ways.

Like guns are dangerous all right in the hands of a mad man,

Yeah, but that's why the law has said you can't give them to mad people since before the founding of the state.

I think if ags gave a single fûck about public saftey it would be a criminal offence to carry knives or the famous sharpened screwdrivers in public espcially at night.

Um. Actually... has been since 1990. And it's not just knives or screwdrivers, the law says that the Garda can arrest you for carrying any object at all that he thinks you're going to use to commit a crime. It's an incredible amount of power to give them and they've had it for nearly a quarter of a century.
Problem is that it's not been used, either because of not enough Gardai on the street, or courts not following through.

If your convicted of armed robbery murder , attempted murder , assault , home invasions , tiger kidnapping or drug dealing you should be trown in jail and the key trown away, not being told , " here don't do that again now or you may MAY get a strong word told to you by the judge "

See, if you used a firearm for any of those, the law has said since 2006 that the sentence is life in prison. Courts aren't giving those penalties though.

bravestar · 19-12-2014 1:08pm

Sparks wrote: »

Um. Actually... has been since 1990. And it's not just knives or screwdrivers, the law says that the Garda can arrest you for carrying any object at all that he thinks you're going to use to commit a crime. It's an incredible amount of power to give them and they've had it for nearly a quarter of a century.
Problem is that it's not been used, either because of not enough Gardai on the street, or courts not following through.

.

Um... I can tell you with 100% certainty that it has been and is used on a daily basis. I don't know where your coming from with a comment like that sparks. With regards to the court element though... Well that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Sparks · 19-12-2014 1:13pm

bravestar wrote: »

I don't know where your coming from with a comment like that sparks. With regards to the court element though... Well that's a whole other kettle of fish.

You just answered your own question there bravestar. If you don't have both enough Gardai to catch people breaking that law and Courts who apply it, then it's not being used.

bpb101 · 19-12-2014 2:15pm

my point is that why arent they prosecuted properly
Their defedent comes up with some story about how his parent never loved him and thats why he like this.

nearly everybody caught for murders always have a record (gang related)

moving on though. What are solutions to this legislation. More press ?

Grizzly 45 · 19-12-2014 2:30pm

In some states in American what they do is when you get your gun , within a week or so you go into the local cop shop and you fire the gun and give them the round. They then computerise the ballistics.
So if somebody shoots somebody they check who gun the bullet came from and they go knocking.
However that would probable cost. 3.5 billion to make that sort of system here .because of course we need to have Dennis o Brian as a consultant on the matter

.

I see on the debate the Cheif super was in favour of this too..However it is a pointless exercise as anyone with the mootest idea of firearm ballistics will tell you.
1] It has been tried before.Germany did it in the 1970s and dropped the idea five years later. They ended up in the BKA with a warehouse full of spent shells and bullet heads of every German firearm made and sold to German gun owners and out of legally held arms. Cost at the time over two million Deutsche mark to set up.Go figure what that is euros today and what that would cost in Ireland.

2] Apart from the grooving pattern on a bullet,you also must examine the firing pin indentation,extractor marks,ejector marks, and in some cases even magazine marks. How difficult would it be for a criminal to simply change the extractor and ejector and firing pin and barrel on the firearm and go about their busisness??But then again if like in Limerick recently,they had to watch an episode of LOVE HATE to learn how to strip the most easiest pistol in the world a Glock 17, they mightn't be that competant..:rolleyes:

3 ]What the suggestion as in the above example of the US was called micro stamping. A micro serial number would be engraved via lazers onto the firing pin and everytime a gun is fired the micro stamp of the serial number is imprinted on the primer .Sounds good?Better police your spent brass very well then on the range, as it was dumped too as too easy to possibly frame someone using discarded brass. Also that policy of the PD is I belive being challanged in the US courts as unconstitutional as it is taking an assumption of prre mediation of a crime by the person owning the gun.Something we needen't worry ourselves too much with here as gun owners as we are guilty until proven innocent in the eyes of the law.:rolleyes:

4]Simply giving a couple of licks to the extractor ,ejector with a file or dremel tool will change the tooling marks and throw your forensic evidence in doubt.

This is also a very serious endightment of AGS balistics too.If they cannot trace the serial numbers of recoverd firearms,it begs the question with the international co operation of police forces fighting international crime why hasn't AGS got on the phone to their colleuges in either the UK,Germany,the USA or elsewhere to ask their labs to examine or allow them to use their facilities to find these missing serial numbers??
Is it because their head of the Garda ballistics has no formal qualifications in this,and main qualification is a diploma when it should be an actual Doctorate for this position?
That his understudy has a degree in general science from Galway,and a diploma in firearms ballistics from Edinburgh? Which BTW any one of us could do in a long weekend with appx 450 STG in various universities around the UK?

It seems this comittee is not asking the right questions at all sofar.The sooner all this sort of information is presented to them the better.

yubabill1 · 19-12-2014 3:38pm

Griz

That would make a good submission on its own.

Not to mention pushing an oversize steel brush up and down the barrel to change the tooling marks ever so slightly.

bravestar · 19-12-2014 3:49pm

Sparks wrote: »

You just answered your own question there bravestar. If you don't have both enough Gardai to catch people breaking that law and Courts who apply it, then it's not being used.

You said "either", "or" not and .

Grizzly 45 · 19-12-2014 3:57pm

Why not invite this comittee down to one of the ranges to view these dreaded "assault rifles" and "combat handguns" and shotguns and let them view the Civillian versions thereof in January or over Xmas?? Sometimes it is better that people see these in person and understand the difference to apprently the pictures of full auto combat weapons that was circulated to the comittee this week.

Sparks · 19-12-2014 4:35pm

Might be a better idea than just letting them take the one tour of the Garda HQ that they've been promised...

sfakiaman · 19-12-2014 6:53pm

I invited my local TD to the range the last time this Sh1t was going down, he declined. His party did not get a vote from my village since.

kerry4sam · 20-12-2014 11:02am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Why not invite this comittee down to one of the ranges to view these dreaded "assault rifles" and "combat handguns" and shotguns and let them view the Civillian versions thereof in January or over Xmas?? Sometimes it is better that people see these in person and understand the difference to apprently the pictures of full auto combat weapons that was
circulated to the comittee this week.

Sparks wrote: »

Might be a better idea than just letting them take the one tour of the Garda HQ that they've been promised...

How is a tour of Garda HQ going to show them anything they would not already know if they done their own research

Thanks,
kerry4sam

alphaburner · 20-12-2014 11:09am

Just saw the Mirror article quoting the amount of "weapons" held legally in Ireland. The Garda PR machine seems to be the only thing that works well for them

wexfordman2 · 20-12-2014 11:43am

kerry4sam wrote: »

How is a tour of Garda HQ going to show them anything they would not already know if they done their own research

Thanks, y
kerry4sam

Perhaps they are going to dispaly some seized illegal firearms?

OzCam · 20-12-2014 12:13pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Perhaps they are going to dispaly some seized illegal firearms?

That's a no-brainer. They'll be sure to include whatever AKs and Deadly Black Glocks they can find on the shelves. And maybe a sawn-off shottie or two, the scarier the better.

Those are the only guns the TDs will recognise, there's no point in showing off anything else unless they want to push the variety angle...

wexfordman2 · 20-12-2014 12:16pm

alphaburner wrote: »

Just saw the Mirror article quoting the amount of "weapons" held legally in Ireland. The Garda PR machine seems to be the only thing that works well for them

Shocking article, it would appear even nial Collins quite was used out of context.

bpb101 · 20-12-2014 9:27pm

read it there . The graphs that they done had the robberies

as 305.00 robberies
same with the licensee
please tell me how you could have a fraction of a rifle ??

SPIN SPIN EVERYWHERE

Grizzly 45 · 20-12-2014 10:20pm

Daily Mirror,Tits celebs,soccer ,war[ not necessarily in that order]:rolleyes:

But its a nice pie chart that actually shows how few of these deadly firearms of a million rounds a second that can deliver pinpoint accuracy at ten miles there are actually ARE here and that they are concerned about.
Bit of an own goal if you ask me,but then again I dont suppose the average Daily Mirror reader will be able to grasp that fact once its past page three .:rolleyes:

Wonder will Paul Williams and mr " I know everything about guns cos I was an army officer...once " Tom Clonan be trundled out next to give us their opinionaries?:rolleyes:

Sparks · 21-12-2014 3:22pm

16 December 2014

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
387. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the cases or correspondence that the Judiciary have expressed difficulties in interpreting provisions of current firearms legislation; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [48404/14]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

Section 8 of the Firearms Licensing Review Report, recently published by my Department, sets out issues raised by the Courts in dealing with appeals in the District Court regarding firearms legislation. The relevant extracts are set out beneath:

"Many District Court Judges who have overturned the decisions of Chief Superintendents have consistently stated the current legislative provisions need to be addressed.

In Limerick District Court, an appeal hearing was heard in August 2013 with regard to two semi automatic, restricted rifles (rifles resembling assault rifles) and two centre fire handguns. This was an appeal against the decision of the Chief Superintendent not to grant licences for these firearms. It is reported that the Judge stated that the Chief Superintendent is being placed in an invidious position, with his concern being the public who he must protect and the possibility that the firearms may fall into the wrong hands. The Judge commented that the legislation has not grappled with the kernel of the issue; are these firearms lawful or not. The decision in this case was that the licences should be granted.

An appeal was heard in the Dublin District Court in October 2013 against the refusal to grant restricted licences for two centre-fire handguns (Thomas Mansfield V Chief Superintendent Coburn & the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána).

The Judge issued a ten page written judgment in December 2013, allowing the appeal, stating the following: “The Court is satisfied that he has a good and sufficient reason and that the guns are appropriate for the purpose for which they are required. The Court is satisfied that he doesn’t take part in practical or dynamic shooting. I am further satisfied that the concerns expressed by the Chief Superintendent on public safety are not enough to deprive the Appellant of his licence, particularly in view of the unexplained 90% who subsequently got their licences on reconsideration”.

The Judge also states: “Arguments about the availability of guns to civilians is a wider political question for the Legislature to address. This is not a question for the Courts; we can only deal with the law as it is”.

"In February 2014, in Bray District Court, the District Justice granted firearms licensing appeals and directed the relevant Chief Superintendent to issue nine restricted firearm certificates for centre fire handguns. The Judge commented that it was open to the legislature to ban these weapons but in the absence of that, he was allowing all of the appeals."

bpb101 · 21-12-2014 3:48pm

Sparks wrote: »

16 December 2014

"In February 2014, in Bray District Court, the District Justice granted firearms licensing appeals and directed the relevant Chief Superintendent to issue nine restricted firearm certificates for centre fire handguns. The Judge commented that it was open to the legislature to ban these weapons but in the absence of that, he was allowing all of the appeals."

I didn't think the law allowed for centre fire hand guns anymore.
Is it becaus they pulled the last guidelines ?

Might be worth a few people flooding the guards with licence requests as precedent . No law has chane since this granting .

Cass · 21-12-2014 3:50pm

These were previously licensed (before November 2008) and were on appeal.

No new short arm, restricted licenses, can be applied for. Even if a Super/Chief Super granted you a license for a 9mm gun today it stands void as by law he cannot grant such a license.

So any applications for such restricted firearms are redundant and will be refused immediately.

SVI40 · 21-12-2014 3:50pm

bpb101 wrote: »

I didn't think the law allowed for centre fire hand guns anymore.
Is it becaus they pulled the last guidelines ?

Might be worth a few people flooding the guards with licence requests as precedent . No law has chane since this granting .

These would have been refusals to relicence CF pistols that were licenced prior to 19 November 2008, or for .22s.

bpb101 · 21-12-2014 3:53pm

Cass wrote: »

These were previously licensed (before November 2008) and were on appeal.

No new short arm, restricted licenses, can be applied for. Even if a Super/Chief Super granted you a license for a 9mm gun today it stands void as by law he cannot grant such a license.

So any applications for such restricted firearms are redundant and will be refused immediately.

SVI40 wrote: »

These would have been refusals to relicence CF pistols that were licenced prior to 19 November 2008, or for .22s.

ahhhhhh,

Grizzly 45 · 21-12-2014 8:42pm

It is reported that the Judge stated that the Chief Superintendent is being placed in an invidious position, with his concern being the public who he must protect and the possibility that the firearms may fall into the wrong hands. The Judge commented that the legislation has not grappled with the kernel of the issue; are these firearms lawful or not. The decision in this case was that the licences should be granted.

Very ironic that bit about CS D Sheehans comments about public safety,when in our local papers esp the Limerick Leader of May 13th 2013. He is quoted along with Dr Marie Cassidy in a joint interview that he was satisified that gun crime in his division had dropped 95% due to AGS tackling the crime fammilys of Limerick.
So which is it??Either the threat is still there and rakes of handguns were being stolen from gun owners in Limerick during the height of the family feuds and shootingsOnly one I heard about was one from a member of AGS,because he belived in safe storage of a firearm consisted apprently of storing it securely under his BED PILLOW!
Or he just didnt want to liscense firearms in his district.which he showed very aptly in his answers in the witness box in Oct 2014 in Limerick DC.

He could not answer;
How many restricterd firearms were in his division? Didnt have the "exact figure"
How many he liscensed without involving a DC appeal?
He claimed a few,but was unaware how many.
What was the preconditions that made these "few" liscense holders easier to liscense than the rest of the appelants?Another evasive answer given as he "couldn't remember..."

Pity they didnt add in that parlimentery question answer .Judge O Kellys summation of the current firearms laws ."These are very wishy washy laws that have vague definitions and serve neither judicary or parties at all well!"

yubabill1 · 22-12-2014 5:28pm

Hrrmph.

Y'know there are a lot of PQ's submitted by TD's on our behalf that are awaiting data from AGS, some dating from last Feb?

How are we supposed to make submissions when we are relying on articles like to one in The Mirror etc. for data?

One possible ground to request the justice firearm committee be declared null and void.

Sparks · 23-12-2014 12:13pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

One possible ground to request the justice firearm committee be declared null and void.

Need to get the names right if you're asking for things like that - it's the Joint Committee on Justice, and the Firearms Working Group Report - the former is pretty much a constitutional thing that nobody is supposed to be able to get rid of; the latter is the report we think is bogus and ought to be ditched (or at least, large chunks of it).
Mix the two up and it becomes the oldest reason in the book for taking an otherwise legitimate complaint and binning it.

Grizzly 45 · 23-12-2014 2:11pm

Very breifly .Got about a 2 minute look .
Its an utter crock !!!!:mad:
About 10 pics

First up a Very scary looking M4 type firearm ,kitted out in every tactical feature and then some you could imagine. Flash hider,bayonet lug, what looks like am old style lazer target desiganator on the carrying handle,40 round mag,vertical fwd grip,6 poistion telescoping stock,picitinny rails aplenty.And as black as a preists cassock in a coal cellar .Coyly photographed on its left side so you cant see the selector switch,and whether this is a select fire or semi auto.

Next a [in]famous SPAS15 of which there is AFIK only ONE liscensed and owned in this country of ours,owned by a certain person whom we all know here.This gun was/is legally liscensed and held.Their gun in the picture as it has two distinctive features that set it apart.

A .22 target pistol[Walther GSP?] with a custom grip and what looks like a ten shot mag!!!Ironic,if this was to be the "approved Olympic style pistol" picture.
Or maybe this is supposed to be a dreaded" high capacity assault pistol"

The remainder of the pics looked like handguns that had been dumped out of the evidence locker. Someone had crudely tried to obscure the serial numbers on one or two of them by scratching a pin thru the original picture?
We had off the top of my head
A S&W stainless compact [9mm or40 cal?]
A S&W .38[?] snubbie
A Walther/Umarex[?] .22 possibly a P5 9mm
A Sig mosquieto .22
Couple of others I cant remember,but the iconic "Irish criminals weapon of choice" the Glock wasn't with them.Somewhat surprising that.

Laughable to us and a pretty pathetic attempt, but enough to add more panic to the unknowing on the comittee.

On an aside,,word back is if you are writing letters folks,PLEASE KEEP THEM CIVIL!! We have very few friends in our corner in the dail and senad on this issue and the NARGC letter style has got their attention and right up their noses in the wrong way.A lot of them understand or understood our fustration on this carry on by AGS,but we need to turn the volume down a bit on them.

OzCam · 25-12-2014 11:14pm

Anyone else noticing that whenever you get a PQ asked that might turn up anything that might help your case the data is mysteriously "unavailable" or "will cost too much to find out" or is still awaiting some response that noone seems to be in a hurry with?

Must be a coincidence.

SVI40 · 26-12-2014 1:01am

Not surprised in the least.

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Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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