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Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    rrpc wrote: »
    This season because of BOD's absence both D'Arcy and McFadden havee started nearly all the HEC matches together. It's hard to know what the situation would have been had BOD not been out. McFadden has still had more starts then D'Arcy.

    The idea that d'Arcy is starting at all when guys like McFadden and O'Malley are about is what I'm getting at though. To some extent I'd include Luke Fitz in it too, he's assured of his place when he really shouldn't be. It's a pity Conway has had such a bad run with injuries, I think he could be the guy to force Fitz into the centre.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    The idea that d'Arcy is starting at all when guys like McFadden and O'Malley are about is what I'm getting at though. To some extent I'd include Luke Fitz in it too, he's assured of his place when he really shouldn't be. It's a pity Conway has had such a bad run with injuries, I think he could be the guy to force Fitz into the centre.
    Actually, I was wrong on them starting together. They've had equal starts, but O'Malley has had three as well (in the HEC).

    Joe tends to start a seasoned campaigner with a younger guy (Toner with Cullen or with Thorn, O'Malley with D'Arcy or D'Arcy with McFadden etc.) which is fine by me tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    rrpc wrote: »
    Actually, I was wrong on them starting together. They've had equal starts, but O'Malley has had three as well (in the HEC).

    Joe tends to start a seasoned campaigner with a younger guy (Toner with Cullen or with Thorn, O'Malley with D'Arcy or D'Arcy with McFadden etc.) which is fine by me tbh.

    I don't think anyone has much of a problem with that, most coaches do it, but it makes it harder for young guys to win places as you are always going to go with more experienced guys like Cullen and d'Arcy ahead of guys who (now) have more potential. So, for example, Sherry gets to play with Wian and Botha, Murray gets to play with O'Gara etc. The thing people use to criticise Munster coaches is used to praise others.

    It's also worth remembering in Keatley's defence, he's had to play with TOL. TOL is a super athlete but when he's off form, he can make it very hard for whoever's playing outhalf.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    I don't think anyone has much of a problem with that, most coaches do it, but it makes it harder for young guys to win places as you are always going to go with more experienced guys like Cullen and d'Arcy ahead of guys who (now) have more potential. So, for example, Sherry gets to play with Wian and Botha, Murray gets to play with O'Gara etc. The thing people use to criticise Munster coaches is used to praise others.

    It's also worth remembering in Keatley's defence, he's had to play with TOL. TOL is a super athlete but when he's off form, he can make it very hard for whoever's playing outhalf.
    We're not disagreeing here ;)

    I've stated elsewhere that Keatley should be getting starts with Murray. TOL is far too slow for Keatley's style of play. The examples I gave above are ones where this kind of rotation happens. Unfortunately for Keatley he's been done no favours by the Munster management, Murray also would benefit from that pairing because ROG doesn't require quick ball, so Murray doesn't have to deliver it. You could see he was trying to speed up to match Sexton's demands in the 6N, but he couldn't maintain the pace.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    rrpc wrote: »
    We're not disagreeing here ;)

    I've stated elsewhere that Keatley should be getting starts with Murray. TOL is far too slow for Keatley's style of play. The examples I gave above are ones where this kind of rotation happens. Unfortunately for Keatley he's been done no favours by the Munster management, Murray also would benefit from that pairing because ROG doesn't require quick ball, so Murray doesn't have to deliver it. You could see he was trying to speed up to match Sexton's demands in the 6N, but he couldn't maintain the pace.

    Yeah, it's interesting you mention the scrumhalf's style of play, seemingly Munster want the scrumhalf to step before passing to tie in the backrow. You'd think with genuine pace like Earls, Zebo and Jones we'd be getting the ball out as fast as possible. That's directly opposite to what fluid teams like NZ do, where the ball is virtually never slowed. The annoying thing is Murray is well capable of passing without stepping, we could end ruining a decent player for no good reason.

    Mind you, going by last Saturday, we also view Mick O'Driscoll as some sort of 12.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Yeah, it's interesting you mention the scrumhalf's style of play, seemingly Munster want the scrumhalf to step before passing to tie in the backrow. You'd think with genuine pace like Earls, Zebo and Jones we'd be getting the ball out as fast as possible. That's directly opposite to what fluid teams like NZ do, where the ball is virtually never slowed. The annoying thing is Murray is well capable of passing without stepping, we could end ruining a decent player for no good reason.
    That's what I'm afraid of too. I rate Murray highly, but unless Munster change that style of play, he could easily be eclipsed by Marshall in the green jersey which would be a shame (not for Marshall I must add).

    It's also not good for Keatley. I see many Munster fans writing him off when he's just not being used effectively. Look at the 'Madigan' thread for instance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,174 ✭✭✭Junior


    rrpc wrote: »
    That's what I'm afraid of too. I rate Murray highly, but unless Munster change that style of play, he could easily be eclipsed by Marshall in the green jersey which would be a shame (not for Marshall I must add).

    It's also not good for Keatley. I see many Munster fans writing him off when he's just not being used effectively. Look at the 'Madigan' thread for instance.

    I'd agree with you there I actually thought Keatley had a very good start to the season and hasn't been used correctly since.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    rrpc wrote: »
    This season because of BOD's absence both D'Arcy and McFadden havee started nearly all the HEC matches together. It's hard to know what the situation would have been had BOD not been out. McFadden has still had more starts then D'Arcy.

    The idea that d'Arcy is starting at all when guys like McFadden and O'Malley are about is what I'm getting at though. To some extent I'd include Luke Fitz in it too, he's assured of his place when he really shouldn't be. It's a pity Conway has had such a bad run with injuries, I think he could be the guy to force Fitz into the centre.
    D'Arcy is better at 12 than both McFadden and O'Malley though. When he is playing for Leinster.

    They're both getting plenty of opportunity though recently.

    As for Luke, he has had an excellent season. Conway isn't close to that jersey yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    rrpc wrote: »
    That's what I'm afraid of too. I rate Murray highly, but unless Munster change that style of play, he could easily be eclipsed by Marshall in the green jersey which would be a shame (not for Marshall I must add).

    It's also not good for Keatley. I see many Munster fans writing him off when he's just not being used effectively. Look at the 'Madigan' thread for instance.

    I thought Murray was quite good against France and Reddan was quite poor against England so for me, Murray is still the guy Ireland need to go with. If Marshall comes in ahead of Reddan and challenges Murray then it's a good thing for Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    D'Arcy is better at 12 than both McFadden and O'Malley though. When he is playing for Leinster.

    They're both getting plenty of opportunity though recently.

    As for Luke, he has had an excellent season. Conway isn't close to that jersey yet.

    I really like Fitz, I think he has the full bag of tricks and he seems to be nice guy but on Saturday I couldn't help but think how little end product there is to anything he does. It looks good but is it anything more than that? As I said before, I'd have him as Ireland's replacement 13 to BOD but I'm not sure he's a back three player anymore. If you compare Nacewa to Fitz as utility back three players, Nacewa is leagues ahead of him.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    I thought Murray was quite good against France and Reddan was quite poor against England so for me, Murray is still the guy Ireland need to go with. If Marshall comes in ahead of Reddan and challenges Murray then it's a good thing for Ireland.
    I don't think any scrum half would have been good against England and since England took Reddan's main weapon away from him (quick ball), he was bound to struggle. Things didn't improve when TOL came on (not really likely anyway) but it certainly wasn't an outcome that Reddan could be blamed for.

    All you can really say about the England game is that it was where Kidney's luck with injuries (and his poor selection ploicies) finally went against him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    rrpc wrote: »
    I don't think any scrum half would have been good against England and since England took Reddan's main weapon away from him (quick ball), he was bound to struggle. Things didn't improve when TOL came on (not really likely anyway) but it certainly wasn't an outcome that Reddan could be blamed for.

    All you can really say about the England game is that it was where Kidney's luck with injuries (and his poor selection ploicies) finally went against him.

    Not so much blamed for as highlighted a weakness. Is it worth persisting with reddan given his age wrt to younger guys like Murray and Marshall? Not really, imo. He doesn't have their potential.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    D'Arcy is better at 12 than both McFadden and O'Malley though. When he is playing for Leinster.

    They're both getting plenty of opportunity though recently.

    As for Luke, he has had an excellent season. Conway isn't close to that jersey yet.

    I really like Fitz, I think he has the full bag of tricks and he seems to be nice guy but on Saturday I couldn't help but think how little end product there is to anything he does. It looks good but is it anything more than that? As I said before, I'd have him as Ireland's replacement 13 to BOD but I'm not sure he's a back three player anymore. If you compare Nacewa to Fitz as utility back three players, Nacewa is leagues ahead of him.
    I don't know about that at all.

    He created a try for Kearney from an outside break. The only other person to have that much creative influence on the game really was Madigan with his cross-field kick to Nacewa. Munsters defense gave nothing.

    Look at his form before his injury, he was absolutely electric against Bath. Scored a couple of tries and created others.

    He needs to do more to create these things because he doesn't have that Fionn Carr pace. I think when he's not having a run of games he loses the confidence to try those things that compensate for that. But that kick, take and pass to Kearney show he's there or thereabouts right now.

    I would like to see him at 12 but I think hes still one of our best attacking threats at 11.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    I don't know about that at all.

    He created a try for Kearney from an outside break. The only other person to have that much creative influence on the game really was Madigan with his cross-field kick to Nacewa. Munsters defense gave nothing.

    Look at his form before his injury, he was absolutely electric against Bath. Scored a couple of tries and created others.

    He needs to do more to create these things because he doesn't have that Fionn Carr pace. I think when he's not having a run of games he loses the confidence to try those things that compensate for that. But that kick, take and pass to Kearney show he's there or thereabouts right now.

    I would like to see him at 12 but I think hes still one of our best attacking threats at 11.

    How good are Bath though? And again, where's the end product? At the end of it he just doesn't have the pace of any of Ireland's other wing options. I think it's natural to want to see him in the centre but that in itself is an admission he's not such a great wing he shouldn't be moved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Not so much blamed for as highlighted a weakness. Is it worth persisting with reddan given his age wrt to younger guys like Murray and Marshall? Not really, imo. He doesn't have their potential.
    Of the two, Marshall has a better chance currently because he's more suited to playing the game Sexton plays than Murray. Reddan can't last the pace of his own game and was clearly knackered by the time he was subbed off in TP.

    Which is why I'm advocating more time for Murray and Keatley to start together. Keatley played with Frank Murphy in Connacht who (putting his other deficiencies aside) can not be accused of being slow. Playing with Keatley would help to up Murrauy's tempo, but the decidion rests with the current Munster management and they've not shown any desire to do this.

    Munster badly need a new coach who'll put more emphasis on back play and get more out of the half backs. Munster have some very good backs, but they're not getting anything near the best out of them.

    Somebody who's not afraid to shake things up and make the tough decisions that need to be made.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    rrpc wrote: »
    Of the two, Marshall has a better chance currently because he's more suited to playing the game Sexton plays than Murray. Reddan can't last the pace of his own game and was clearly knackered by the time he was subbed off in TP.

    Which is why I'm advocating more time for Murray and Keatley to start together. Keatley played with Frank Murphy in Connacht who (putting his other deficiencies aside) can not be accused of being slow. Playing with Keatley would help to up Murrauy's tempo, but the decidion rests with the current Munster management and they've not shown any desire to do this.

    Munster badly need a new coach who'll put more emphasis on back play and get more out of the half backs. Munster have some very good backs, but they're not getting anything near the best out of them.

    Somebody who's not afraid to shake things up and make the tough decisions that need to be made.

    No scrumhalf could fix our 10/12 problem. I think Murray has the rugby brain that Marshall lacks. I don't think Keatley is so good that we should drop both O'Gara and Mafi for him, which is what we'd have to do. I wish he'd make a case for himself that he is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,815 ✭✭✭✭emmet02


    No scrumhalf could fix our 10/12 problem. I think Murray has the rugby brain that Marshall lacks. I don't think Keatley is so good that we should drop both O'Gara and Mafi for him, which is what we'd have to do. I wish he'd make a case for himself that he is.

    woah.

    Just woah.

    Marshall is erratic because that's what he's supposed to be. I don't think anyone could say he doesn't have a rugby brain. Would you say the same of Quade-Cooper? He tries things that don't always come off, but he's an incredibly "clever" player.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    emmet02 wrote: »
    woah.

    Just woah.

    Marshall is erratic because that's what he's supposed to be. I don't think anyone could say he doesn't have a rugby brain. Would you say the same of Quade-Cooper? He tries things that don't always come off, but he's an incredibly "clever" player.

    You think it's intentional? I have my doubts but i've no problem with seeing Marshall play for Ireland to see if he what he bring to the table works at that level.

    And Quade Cooper is a strange comparison, imo, he's a deeply flawed player albeit exciting to watch. Most fans would rather have Carter as their outhalf, imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,815 ✭✭✭✭emmet02


    You think it's intentional? I have my doubts but i've no problem with seeing Marshall play for Ireland to see if he what he bring to the table works at that level.

    And Quade Cooper is a strange comparison, imo, he's a deeply flawed player albeit exciting to watch. Most fans would rather have Carter as their outhalf, imo.

    How is it a strange comparison? I reckon it's pretty much spot on.
    QC does plenty right, and a feature of his game is that to do so, he has to also do plenty wrong. Marshall is remarkably similar. In playing the way he does, he makes plenty of frustrating decisions, does things that aren't "ideal" but in the main, it has been working.

    It's not conservative, but it's not "bad" or "brainless". His willingness to try things is a trait, not a weakness.

    QC makes mistakes, but he's a fantastic reader of the game, knows how to find exploits, and does so. He breaks plenty of eggs making the omelette, but that can be outweighed by his output.

    Marshall isn't a complete player by any stretch of the imagination, but I think he's a remarkably clever player to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,175 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    rrpc wrote: »
    We're not disagreeing here ;)

    I've stated elsewhere that Keatley should be getting starts with Murray. TOL is far too slow for Keatley's style of play. The examples I gave above are ones where this kind of rotation happens. Unfortunately for Keatley he's been done no favours by the Munster management, Murray also would benefit from that pairing because ROG doesn't require quick ball, so Murray doesn't have to deliver it. You could see he was trying to speed up to match Sexton's demands in the 6N, but he couldn't maintain the pace.

    Murray has only started 3 Rabo games this season and in fairness to Murray, the 6Ns games were his first to start with Sexton (another 3 games).

    Keatley needs to sort out his kicking. I wouldn't worry about o'gara too much, he has hardly played in the last 2 months, so must be fairly rusty (and when he was playing, sexton was taking the kicks).

    Warwick didn't get off the bench for munster for his first season, so i wouldn't worry too much about keatley just yet, but he could work a bit harder on his kicking from the tee.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    emmet02 wrote: »
    How is it a strange comparison? I reckon it's pretty much spot on.
    QC does plenty right, and a feature of his game is that to do so, he has to also do plenty wrong. Marshall is remarkably similar. In playing the way he does, he makes plenty of frustrating decisions, does things that aren't "ideal" but in the main, it has been working.

    It's not conservative, but it's not "bad" or "brainless". His willingness to try things is a trait, not a weakness.

    QC makes mistakes, but he's a fantastic reader of the game, knows how to find exploits, and does so. He breaks plenty of eggs making the omelette, but that can be outweighed by his output.

    Marshall isn't a complete player by any stretch of the imagination, but I think he's a remarkably clever player to be honest.

    Really? I wouldn't class Marshall as clever, I think like you said, it's a trait, it's a natural thing but it's not necessarily a good thing. A scrumhalf has to be solid, first and foremost, and Marshall isn't. but I'm willing to be proved wrong, if he tours to NZ or has a blinder on Sunday I'll be happy enough to praise him for it. I don't like rugby by numbers (in general) but were I an Ulster fan I think i'd prefer consistency from the starting scrumhalf.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    jm08 wrote: »
    Murray has only started 3 Rabo games this season and in fairness to Murray, the 6Ns games were his first to start with Sexton (another 3 games).
    That's my point exactly. Of those three starts, none of them were with Keatley.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,175 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    rrpc wrote: »
    That's my point exactly. Of those three starts, none of them were with Keatley.

    1st was against Aironi (first game back after the world cup). Nov
    2nd was against Leinster (week before Heineken Cup). Nov
    3rd was against treviso when it seems that the world cup players had been given christmas off. early january.

    I dont think you can blame the munster management for not giving them gametime together. both murray & keatley are really only in their first full season's with munster and with the world cup, murray has just not been available.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    jm08 wrote: »
    1st was against Aironi (first game back after the world cup). Nov
    2nd was against Leinster (week before Heineken Cup). Nov
    3rd was against treviso when it seems that the world cup players had been given christmas off. early january.

    I dont think you can blame the munster management for not giving them gametime together. both murray & keatley are really only in their first full season's with munster and with the world cup, murray has just not been available.
    Reddan also went to the RWC and played in the 6N and has had 5 starts in the Rabo, almost double what Murray has had.

    My point is that Keatley is getting a lot of stick from Munster fans but has started almost all his games for Munster with TOL, who's universally been described as off form and is now leaving.

    Madigan is being hailed as the best thing since sliced bread, but the criticisms bring levelled at Keatley could equally apply to Madigan: not kicking from the tee in Madigan's case because Ferg is better (is this not the same thing?) and only starting clutch games when the incumbent is injured (or not at all in Keatley's case).

    When Keatley has played well, it's not been with TOL, so the point still stands that he should be given a shot with Murray and it's probably too late for that to happen this season.


  • Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Flincher


    rrpc wrote: »
    Reddan also went to the RWC and played in the 6N and has had 5 starts in the Rabo, almost double what Murray has had.

    I think you're stretching the point a bit there. Murray would have started on Saturday had he been fit, and you'd be talking about 5 starts v 4 starts (bearing in mind that Reddan's extra start was against the Scarlets in February when Murray was with Ireland).

    You could easily argue they have both started the same amount of games when they have both been available.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    rrpc wrote: »
    Reddan also went to the RWC and played in the 6N and has had 5 starts in the Rabo, almost double what Murray has had.

    My point is that Keatley is getting a lot of stick from Munster fans but has started almost all his games for Munster with TOL, who's universally been described as off form and is now leaving.

    Madigan is being hailed as the best thing since sliced bread, but the criticisms bring levelled at Keatley could equally apply to Madigan: not kicking from the tee in Madigan's case because Ferg is better (is this not the same thing?) and only starting clutch games when the incumbent is injured (or not at all in Keatley's case).

    When Keatley has played well, it's not been with TOL, so the point still stands that he should be given a shot with Murray and it's probably too late for that to happen this season.


    Well TOL is off and Murray will hopefully be around for a full season next season so we'll see. Fact remains, Keatley could have done more, regardless of who he was paired with.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    rrpc wrote: »
    Reddan also went to the RWC and played in the 6N and has had 5 starts in the Rabo, almost double what Murray has had.
    But Reddan only started 3 out of 6 HC games.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    But Reddan only started 3 out of 6 HC games.
    You're selectively quoting me and removing any semblance of context.

    The point is Murray not starting with Keatley, Reddan and Boss are rotated in Leinster, so there's relative equality in how and who they play with.
    Flincher wrote:
    I think you're stretching the point a bit there. Murray would have started on Saturday had he been fit, and you'd be talking about 5 starts v 4 starts (bearing in mind that Reddan's extra start was against the Scarlets in February when Murray was with Ireland).

    You could easily argue they have both started the same amount of games when they have both been available.
    And he would have started with O'Gara, not with Keatley and Keatley never even got a look in. Reddan isn't the point I only brought him up to point out that there were opportunities for Ireland players to play more Rabo games.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    No Concerns Over Earls
    2 April 2012, 12:18 pmBy The EditorKeith Earls who was forced to retire in the 67th minute of Saturday's game at Thomond Park Stadium is reported to be fit and well ahead of the Heineken Cup quarter final visit of Ulster.

    Good news also with regard to the injured trio Paul O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan and Conor Murray who missed that game.
    Ryan engaged in light training last Thursday while O'Connell and Murray visited a specialist in Dublin where they received the all-clear to resume training this week.

    All three will be present when the squad assembles in Limerick for the first of two sessions on Wednesday.

    Meanwhile, Ian Costello will bring his British & Irish squad together this afternoon in Cork to begin final preparations for their semi-final tilt at Leinster on Good Friday in the RDS.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Great news, if we're to have any chance we need those four players on the pitch.


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