UFC 193 - Rousey v Holm

Tigger · 12-11-2015 4:27am

Rousey via Decision

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I'm not saying she should, I just said it's the only potential fight that's interesting. I still think Ronda would win, but Cyborg at least poses a threat. I agree though she's too big to fight at 135, she looks malnourished at 145.

i was agreeing with you
the its true bit i started wit was quickly drowned out by my rambling
i was sorta trying to see her motivation
if she thinks she could beat a 145 ufc champ then it might happen but she probably get millions for the films nowadays

is there a judoka that can beat her at judo that they could train a bit of a striking art to?

Tigger · 12-11-2015 4:34am

Rousey via Decision

EuskalHerria wrote: »

I didn't read the article above, was it anything like the salon article last month in how Ronda was not a good female role model?

donno i got distracted by the links to women with 2 moms and no bras :eek:

Mellor · 12-11-2015 6:04am

Rousey via Decision

Tigger wrote: »

is there a judoka that can beat her at judo that they could train a bit of a striking art to?

She was beaten at the Olympics the year she won bronze, by the other bronze medalist (two bronze medals in judo). Any recent Olympic/world champion would be match her ability in judo. Maybe there’s a case to be made for her advantage without the Gi. Makikomi would have a better idea how quickly a top judoka would adapt.
But she has a huge headstart on all another judoka in terms of a dealing with striking and integrating striking. Compare Ronda’s early fights with now.

TimRiggins · 12-11-2015 9:14am

Tigger wrote: »

its true but funny i just watched this week's kingdom (its great its a soap about mma)
and its made very very clear (its half the story) how hard 10lbs affects everything
at 135lbs cyborg will be weak, and if you can tell me why RR would bother to come up (back up maybe but she's happy at that) to mc greggors weight or do a catch weight just so she might lose i'm all ears
also that 10lbs is muscle she (CC) used drugs to put on so let here lose it and come down

as for a catch weight its like the fight would be fun but it would be all for show
RR looks great at weigh ins and much less defined at fight weight while cc looks like death at weigh ins and like she's still cut at fight weight.

let them make a Ufc 145 and let CC become champ then let them fight for RR to get the double division or For CC to show she's a monster

Cyborg will still be huge at 135. You can see on her Instagram she's still big and she's cutting to 140 for her next fight. She'll probably put on around 10lbs more than Ronda after the weigh ins, and just cut that little bit more fight week. No point in the UFC making a 145 woman's division. Cyborg is the only credible 145 fighter there is. I'd imagine if the UFC do add another female division it'll be 105.

If Cyborg doesn't go down there is no one else for her too fight. Its getting tough to watch her destroy these girl on Invicta cards.

cowzerp · 12-11-2015 12:04pm

Holm via Submission

Mellor wrote: »

Maybe there’s a case to be made for her advantage without the Gi.

Massive difference between judo and no gi, many judoka can't transition to no gi wrestling as a lot of it doesn't translate well.

MartyMcFly84 · 12-11-2015 12:20pm

Rousey via Decision

As above there have been a number of high level Judoka who have transitioned to MMA but very few have been been able to effectively use it in MMA.

Really off the top off my head the only ones I can remember using it dominantly are Ronda Rousey, Karo Parisyan and to a lesser extent Hector Lombard.

Gold medalists Yoshida struggled against strikers and different styles of grappling and didnt seem to embrace the NoGi aspect. He even used to fight MMA wearing a Gi. Granted he was facing very tough competition on the Pride circuit.

Mellor · 12-11-2015 1:05pm

Rousey via Decision

cowzerp wrote: »

Massive difference between judo and no gi, many judoka can't transition to no gi wrestling as a lot of it doesn't translate well.

Absolutely, wasn't trying to suggest it's a straight swap. A huge number of techniques simply don't have a nogi equivalent. If somebody's judo game was based mostly around those techniques, that probavly struggle more.

Ronda only uses a few different throws but they appear to be particularly suited to Nogi.

Mellor · 12-11-2015 1:30pm

Rousey via Decision

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Really off the top off my head the only ones I can remember using it dominantly are Ronda Rousey, Karo Parisyan and to a lesser extent Hector Lombard.

well there's much more to deal with for the men. As mention previously by Cowser I think, the men have to deal with legitimate knock out punches on the way in. Not so much for the women. I think that's the real reason Ronda is so successful.

I always said I'd love TJ see her face world champion jiujitsu fighter. But I don't think there's any potentials. Mackenzie Dern is moving to MMA, but she's too small for 135 imo

Tigger · 12-11-2015 4:09pm

Rousey via Decision

Mellor wrote: »

She was beaten at the Olympics the year she won bronze, by the other bronze medalist (two bronze medals in judo). Any recent Olympic/world champion would be match her ability in judo. Maybe there’s a case to be made for her advantage without the Gi. Makikomi would have a better idea how quickly a top judoka would adapt.
But she has a huge headstart on all another judoka in terms of a dealing with striking and integrating striking. Compare Ronda’s early fights with now.

That's what I thought, there are better Judoka but in a no Gi fight with striking they'd need training
So someone should train one

arybvtcw0eolkf · 12-11-2015 5:48pm

Rousey via Decision

cowzerp wrote: »

Massive difference between judo and no gi, many judoka can't transition to no gi wrestling as a lot of it doesn't translate well.

Well for me it was grips, once that's worked out the rest of basic Judo 101.

Try comparing Judo and wrestling to two suitcases, one with handles and one without. It's easier to move, lift & place back on the ground with the suitcase with handles.. The suitcase without handles is wrestling :P

People without a judo background often (mostly) look at judo in an MMA environment and only wait for the throws, missing the other stuff like judo footwork, hips and grips which come before the throw.

Its very hard to throw someone who doesn't want to be thrown, very hard. So you've to move them, unbalance them to a point where you can thrown them with seeming ease (to the non Judo player).

That's in an MMA environment, it's multiple times harder in judo where you're trying to throw someone who is trying to throw you!.. So anyway, the finer points on Judo is often lost on those who don't practice it.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 12-11-2015 5:55pm

Rousey via Decision

Tigger wrote: »

is there a judoka that can beat her at judo that they could train a bit of a striking art to?

Do you mean a novice who could play catch up and beat Ronda at MMA?.. No, I doubt that very much.

Is there a Judoka who could beat Ronda at Judo?, I dare say if she got a wild card entry to Brazil she'd be eaten alive.

And added problem for an opponent who wishes to draft in a Judoka to help in their training camp is finding one as good as Ronda who is also a left handed player!!.

TimRiggins · 12-11-2015 5:58pm

Reed Enough Comedy wrote: »

Do you mean a novice who could play catch up and beat Ronda at MMA?.. No, I doubt that very much.

Is there a Judoka who could beat Ronda at Judo?, I dare say if she got a wild card entry to Brazil she'd be eaten alive.

And added problem for an opponent who wishes to draft in a Judoka to help in their training camp is finding one as good as Ronda who is also a left handed player!!.

Even her striking game is set up to close the distance and clinch. In the latest embedded (among other examples) we see her throw 3 jabs and clinch.

I think on Saturday we'll see her try to outbox Holly for a round and then say enough is enough and submit her.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 12-11-2015 7:28pm

Rousey via Decision

TimRiggins wrote: »

I think on Saturday we'll see her try to outbox Holly for a round and then say enough is enough and submit her.

Why would she try to outbox a boxer?.

She won't toy around, that's not how you have a long career and make lots of money.

TimRiggins · 12-11-2015 8:11pm

Reed Enough Comedy wrote: »

Why would she try to outbox a boxer?.

She won't toy around, that's not how you have a long career and make lots of money.

To prove she can do it. She seems to have that sort of mindset. She said she wanted to knock Bethe Corriera out on the feet and made a point before this of testing her skills against a boxing world champion.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 12-11-2015 8:19pm

Rousey via Decision

TimRiggins wrote: »

To prove she can do it. She seems to have that sort of mindset. She said she wanted to knock Bethe Corriera out on the feet and made a point before this of testing her skills against a boxing world champion.

She needs to prove nothing, never mind what she says she's gonna do.

Her coaches have her fight worked out for her, she won't be making it up.

cletus · 13-11-2015 8:42am

Rousey via Decision

Makikomi, are elite left hand judoka rarer than, say elite southpaw boxers

ASOT · 13-11-2015 9:45am

Holm via Submission

So the gate for this they reckon will be only $6m us, taught it would be alot more for some reason.

Mr. Manager · 13-11-2015 9:55am

Rousey via Decision

ASOT wrote: »

So the gate for this they reckon will be only $6m us, taught it would be alot more for some reason.

Got a link for this? I would have assumed it would have been much more than that

ASOT · 13-11-2015 10:09am

Holm via Submission

Mr. Manager wrote: »

Got a link for this? I would have assumed it would have been much more than that

Exactly what I was thinking, I tuaght it would be much much higher.

Mellor · 13-11-2015 10:39am

Rousey via Decision

With big stadium shows, you have a much higher proportion of "cheap seats".
I remember when the idea of a Dublin stadium was first floated, I guessed that it wouldn't make a whole lot more than the MGM, about $7-8m max.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 13-11-2015 11:15am

Rousey via Decision

cletus wrote: »

Makikomi, are elite left hand judoka rarer than, say elite southpaw boxers

At Olympic or world level I'd say so, but that's only a guess.

I hate fighting them :mad:

cowzerp · 13-11-2015 1:22pm

Holm via Submission

Reed Enough Comedy wrote: »

Well for me it was grips, once that's worked out the rest of basic Judo 101.

Try comparing Judo and wrestling to two suitcases, one with handles and one without. It's easier to move, lift & place back on the ground with the suitcase with handles.. The suitcase without handles is wrestling :P

People without a judo background often (mostly) look at judo in an MMA environment and only wait for the throws, missing the other stuff like judo footwork, hips and grips which come before the throw.

Its very hard to throw someone who doesn't want to be thrown, very hard. So you've to move them, unbalance them to a point where you can thrown them with seeming ease (to the non Judo player).

That's in an MMA environment, it's multiple times harder in judo where you're trying to throw someone who is trying to throw you!.. So anyway, the finer points on Judo is often lost on those who don't practice it.

That doesn't really explain anything, the end result of Judo is the takedown and it quite simply is very rare that a judo practitioner in MMA can utilise their takedowns to anything close to what they do in Judo competition

Judo is simply not all that effective in MMA and especially when up against people with enough power to take your head off as you come in to clinch, wrestling is much more suitable for MMA for multiple reasons and Grips is only 1, Loads of high level Judoka's have tried MMA and most people know 2-3 who transferred their skills over, with Rhonda been the only 1 who turned it into elite MMA level, Tons of wrestlers have reached the pinnacle of MMA, to many to count

arybvtcw0eolkf · 13-11-2015 4:02pm

Rousey via Decision

cowzerp wrote: »

That doesn't really explain anything, the end result of Judo is the takedown and it quite simply is very rare that a judo practitioner in MMA can utilise their takedowns to anything close to what they do in Judo competition

Judo is simply not all that effective in MMA and especially when up against people with enough power to take your head off as you come in to clinch, wrestling is much more suitable for MMA for multiple reasons and Grips is only 1, Loads of high level Judoka's have tried MMA and most people know 2-3 who transferred their skills over, with Rhonda been the only 1 who turned it into elite MMA level, Tons of wrestlers have reached the pinnacle of MMA, to many to count

Well it explains a lot.

Take downs and their set up for example.. It actually pains me to see an MMA coach with a striking background try to teach shoulder and hip throws without an understanding of how small things like footwork and breaking balance, plus small combinations must come before the throw ~ it would be like me walking into a boxing club and ONLY teaching a sucker punch or hay makers.

Wrestlers, right I tried earlier. Here's an easier explanation, take away the Gi grips and Judo is wrestling. There is hardly a takedown (save for legs these days) in wrestling which is not taught to the Judo novice.

Judo and the UFC, as you know I don't follow the UFC. I'd honestly find it hard to name five fighters who are not Irish. But the fighters who have been pointed out to me with Judo backgrounds have as far as I'm concerned used their judo effectively, you just don't see it as I wouldn't see the finer points of a boxing match.

As regards your comments

judo is simply not all that effective in MMA and especially when up against people with enough power to take your head off as you come in to clinch

When comparing a Judoka to a wrestler that statement makes no sense what so ever. As I've said, the tools available to a wrestler are also available to a judoka. The same can not be said the other way around.. Unless you're saying that wrestlers are somehow impervious to a punch

Wrestler at the highest level ~ Brock Lesnar, a clown with a glass jaw.

Judoka at the highest level ~ Ronda Rousey.

I think I'll be sticking with Judo thank you.

***edit, finally. The end result of Judo is NOT the takedown.. Take downs are only one component of Judo. A Judo fight can also be won by chokes/strangles, pins/hold downs or joint locks.

Ronda is known for her dynamic take downs, but better known for her arm bars ~ Judo 101.

cowzerp · 13-11-2015 4:21pm

Holm via Submission

Reed Enough Comedy wrote: »

Well it explains a lot.

Take downs and their set up for example.. It actually pains me to see an MMA coach with a striking background try to teach shoulder and hip throws without an understanding of how small things like footwork and breaking balance, plus small combinations must come before the throw ~ it would be like me walking into a boxing club and ONLY teaching a sucker punch or hay makers.

Wrestlers, right I tried earlier. Here's an easier explanation, take away the Gi grips and Judo is wrestling. There is hardly a takedown (save for legs these days) in wrestling which is not taught to the Judo novice.

Judo and the UFC, as you know I don't follow the UFC. I'd honestly find it hard to name five fighters who are not Irish. But the fighters who have been pointed out to me with Judo backgrounds have as far as I'm concerned used their judo effectively, you just don't see it as I wouldn't see the finer points of a boxing match.

As regards your comments

When comparing a Judoka to a wrestler that statement makes no sense what so ever. As I've said, the tools available to a wrestler are also available to a judoka. The same can not be said the other way around.. Unless you're saying that wrestlers are somehow impervious to a punch

Wrestler at the highest level ~ Brock Lesnar, a clown with a glass jaw.

Judoka at the highest level ~ Ronda Rousey.

I think I'll be sticking with Judo thank you.

***edit, finally. The end result of Judo is NOT the takedown.. Take downs are only one component of Judo. A Judo fight can also be won by chokes/strangles, pins/hold downs or joint locks.

Ronda is known for her dynamic take downs, but better known for her arm bars ~ Judo 101.

There is no such thing as a sucker punch in boxing, I am well aware wrestling and judo are both the same bar the 1 major difference, the suit, most takedowns in Judo are utilising the suit which is not there for Wrestling, almost every high level competitor in MMA has wrestling backgrounds and most champs do too, i do follow MMA and have seen many high level judoka try it and most quite simply cannot do it, and you can be sure they train no gi too but the difference is far to vast between suit fighting and no gi fighting, Rousey is not the norm and she in general is fighting weaker girls without the power to stop the clinch, essentially beginners in Judo against an expert at judo

If the girls had power like men she would be upended in 50% of her fights and that's the truth of the matter as she walks in like a zombie and can take the small hits she takes, the fact only

The fact is it's unique when Judo players can utilise it into MMA and thats why BJJ, Wrestling and the likes of Catch wrestling is far superior for MMA.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 13-11-2015 4:30pm

Rousey via Decision

cowzerp wrote: »

There is no such thing as a sucker punch in boxing,

And just about every time I've seen an MMA coach try teach a Judo throw that throw doesn't exist in Judo either, or simply its method of instruction is so completely wrong as to render is totally useless.

Fact remains when I see a hip throw or shoulder throw being shown in an MMA environment without the coach showing the set up for that throw its like me going into a boxing club and trying to show boxers a hay maker and nothing else in terms of stance, footwork, combinations to set it up etc.

Btw wasn't Sara McMann an Olympian silver medalist in Wrestling?.. Ronda made short work of her if I remember correctly.

cowzerp · 13-11-2015 4:44pm

Holm via Submission

Reed Enough Comedy wrote: »

And just about every time I've seen an MMA coach try teach a Judo throw that throw doesn't exist in Judo either, or simply its method of instruction is so completely wrong as to render is totally useless.

Fact remains when I see a hip throw or shoulder throw being shown in an MMA environment without the coach showing the set up for that throw its like me going into a boxing club and trying to show boxers a hay maker and nothing else in terms of stance, footwork, combinations to set it up etc.

Btw wasn't Sara McMann an Olympian silver medalist in Wrestling?.. Ronda made short work of her if I remember correctly.

You are calling them judo but if it was MMA clubs then it was wrestling most likely been thought, certainly if it was in my gym

also a haymaker also means nothing, these terms are street fighting nothing terms, i assume you mean an overhand right? if so odds are you won't be shown that in any boxing club anyway and the set ups for all punches come from flow and can't just be shown, this is learned through sparring and getting your footwork fast, similar to judo actually, but then again we are back to the 2 things you don't seem to get, Judo has a very tiny influence on MMA, this is just a fact and Rhonda is not the norm anyway. and many in her division are fighting up divisions as they had no option and she fights down a division to most her fights pre ufc, Cyborg.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 13-11-2015 4:48pm

Rousey via Decision

cowzerp wrote: »

You are calling them judo but if it was MMA clubs then it was wrestling most likely been thought, certainly if it was in my gym

also a haymaker also means nothing, these terms are street fighting nothing terms, i assume you mean an overhand right? if so odds are you won't be shown that in any boxing club anyway and the set ups for all punches come from flow and can't just be shown, this is learned through sparring and getting your footwork fast, similar to judo actually, but then again we are back to the 2 things you don't seem to get, Judo has a very tiny influence on MMA, this is just a fact and Rhonda is not the norm anyway. and many in her division are fighting up divisions as they had no option and she fights down a division to most her fights pre ufc, Cyborg.

You're being deliberately pedantic and I'm not going to dumb down my replies any further.

cowzerp · 13-11-2015 4:55pm

Holm via Submission

Reed Enough Comedy wrote: »

You're being deliberately pedantic and I'm not going to dumb down my replies any further.

No actually you are making a blanket statement about wrestling throws in MMA and putting your judo outlook on it, without the suit it is wrestling in 90% of the cases, as i already explained Rhonda is a rarity and it's a very unique skill that she can utilise judo without the grips, Karo Parysian could also do this as could as could Akiyama, there is loads of other Judo lads who have competed and they pretty much use traditional wrestling unlike the 3 named above.

Judo is really cool but without the grips it is just extremely hard to do and pretty much becomes greco roman wrestling

arybvtcw0eolkf · 13-11-2015 5:06pm

Rousey via Decision

cowzerp wrote: »

No actually you are making a blanket statement about wrestling throws in MMA and putting your judo outlook on it, without the suit it is wrestling in 90% of the cases...............

...........Judo is really cool but without the grips it is just extremely hard to do and pretty much becomes greco roman wrestling

From post #84

Wrestlers, right I tried earlier. Here's an easier explanation, take away the Gi grips and Judo is wrestling. There is hardly a takedown (save for legs these days) in wrestling which is not taught to the Judo novice.

See, you're arguing something which I've already clarified and which we both agree on!.. You're being pedantic.

cowzerp wrote: »

Judo is really cool

That's why people always say "Makikomi is a cool dude".

cowzerp · 13-11-2015 5:10pm

Holm via Submission

Reed Enough Comedy wrote: »

From post #84

See, you're arguing something which I've already clarified and which we both agree on!.. You're being pedantic..

totally twisting what i said throughout, we are going off topic here
I'll leave it with if Rhonda and Holms were men, Holms would smash the living daylights out of Rousey.

UFC 193 - Rousey v Holm

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