[dambarude]

Originally Posted by Fizzical

Dambarude, I appreciate your taking the trouble to reply to all of this - and all alone! It's not easy to stay calm and courteous in the face of so many posts, so thank you.

Thanks. It can be hard to rationalise and defend the indefensible, particularly when I've only dipped my toe in the system yet. Lack of planning in implementing new subjects is the main reason for concern in relation to science. There were issues with drama also, in that some teachers hadn't (and still haven't) a clue how to implement it in the classroom. Discrepancies and failures in that subject are less obvious than in subjects like science.

Originally Posted by Fizzical

And you were right to say that some of the incorrect ideas brought to secondary science could well be the product of the children's imagination rather than something the teacher told them.

I definitely think that this has something to do with it.

Originally Posted by Fizzical

But there should be a basic level of competence in all subjects to be taught and it should be demonstrated. This should be non-negotiable. What 'basic level' means is another matter.

You're right. That it hasn't happened up to now is an indictment of how teachers are educated/trained. Programme overload has been a major problem in B.Ed degrees, this being mentioned by the Teaching Council in programme reviews. Lectures in science education were shoe horned into an already packed B.Ed degree. The same happened with SEN, drama and other subjects/discrete areas that have come to the fore since the B.Eds were initiated in the 1970s. No proper review of the programmes has happened up until this point.

Originally Posted by Fizzical

(Re your comment that some secondary teachers reach a minimum standard, it is a minimum standard at degree level which is something. What may explain secondary teachers not seeming to be competent at their subject is that maybe it isn't their subject at all but they were put teaching it anyway by the management.)

I didn't mean that comment as a dig (though it may have come across that way). When a teacher is teaching one particular subject for full days, to multiple classes, it is very different to teaching it for one hour a week (4% of weekly teaching time). That's why I think scraping passes in a BA degree isn't good enough to enable somebody to teach a subject in secondary schools.

[cycnus]

I heard Ruari Quinn mention this again this morning.

Im going to be honest here, I know at least 7 people who went for primary school teaching because it was considered a soft job, with great holidays. Some of them I knew from school, others from college, and they werent people I would consider smart enough to be teaching children. And here we are a few years later, 4 of them are teachers.

I always loved science, but it was a pretty sad state of affairs when I realised at about the age of 8 or 9, that I had better math skills than my teacher at the time. Also a better understanding of astronomy and science in general. Granted I wasnt a typical child, but on what planet should a 9 year old child have a better understanding of maths, and science than their teacher? It got to a point where occasionally the teacher would ask me to explain a topic. How can we allow these people to slip through the net? Im sure with the recession and job options tightening up, the situation is even worse now.

I think considering these are the people who will be shaping the futures of our children's lives, and therefore that of our country and economy, they should have achieved good grades in Honours English, Maths and Irish as well as a Science subject, and anything else they are going to be teaching!

This is especially resonant when we hear about how science and engineering at the careers of the future.

[doc_17]

Originally Posted by cycnus

I heard Ruari Quinn mention this again this morning.

Im going to be honest here, I know at least 7 people who went for primary school teaching because it was considered a soft job, with great holidays. Some of them I knew from school, others from college, and they werent people I would consider smart enough to be teaching children. And here we are a few years later, 4 of them are teachers.

I always loved science, but it was a pretty sad state of affairs when I realised at about the age of 8 or 9, that I had better math skills than my teacher at the time. Also a better understanding of astronomy and science in general. Granted I wasnt a typical child, but on what planet should a 9 year old child have a better understanding of maths, and science than their teacher? It got to a point where occasionally the teacher would ask me to explain a topic. How can we allow these people to slip through the net? Im sure with the recession and job options tightening up, the situation is even worse now.

I think considering these are the people who will be shaping the futures of our children's lives, and therefore that of our country and economy, they should have achieved good grades in Honours English, Maths and Irish as well as a Science subject, and anything else they are going to be teaching!

This is especially resonant when we hear about how science and engineering at the careers of the future.

Ah sure as long as there are wonderful people like yourself in the class the wee ones will be alright!

[cycnus]

I fear if the government keeps pushing is agenda of devolution through discouraging hard working people from having kids, there wont be too many children like me left! its not a coincidence that benefits go up for the lazy, costs go up for the hard working, and leaving cert points come down...

[DonnaMaguire]

Hey, I'm going into 6th year in September and honestly I'm quite lost concerning all the recent news about those going on for primary school teaching needing honours maths.

For me, I've been dead set on being a primary school teacher forever. I've never wanted to be anything else. Even when I was younger I always answered with "I want to be a teacher."

I done higher level maths for my junior cert and got a C, and I'm not going to lie, but when I started 5th year I stayed in the higher level class for about a week before I dropped to the ordinary class. I asked several maths teachers and career guidance teachers if this was a wise choice and everyone said that honours maths wasn't needed for being a primary school teacher so if I was struggling it would be the better decision to drop. At the time, I was taking all of my subjects at higher level (English, Irish, Maths, History, French, Music and Art along with LCVP)

I thought that by dropping honours maths I would have extra time during the school year to concentrate and focus more on my honours Irish to ensure that I would get the grade needed instead of weighing myself down with higher level maths when it wasn't even needed!

Right now, I'm totally lost as to what I should do and I'm open to all ideas. Should I try and pick up a two years higher level maths course in a year with grinds or just stick at ordinary level and hope for the best?

Thank you,
A confused almost 6th year!

[dambarude]

Originally Posted by DonnaMaguire

Hey, I'm going into 6th year in September and honestly I'm quite lost concerning all the recent news about those going on for primary school teaching needing honours maths.

For me, I've been dead set on being a primary school teacher forever. I've never wanted to be anything else. Even when I was younger I always answered with "I want to be a teacher."

I done higher level maths for my junior cert and got a C, and I'm not going to lie, but when I started 5th year I stayed in the higher level class for about a week before I dropped to the ordinary class. I asked several maths teachers and career guidance teachers if this was a wise choice and everyone said that honours maths wasn't needed for being a primary school teacher so if I was struggling it would be the better decision to drop. At the time, I was taking all of my subjects at higher level (English, Irish, Maths, History, French, Music and Art along with LCVP)

I thought that by dropping honours maths I would have extra time during the school year to concentrate and focus more on my honours Irish to ensure that I would get the grade needed instead of weighing myself down with higher level maths when it wasn't even needed!

Right now, I'm totally lost as to what I should do and I'm open to all ideas. Should I try and pick up a two years higher level maths course in a year with grinds or just stick at ordinary level and hope for the best?

Thank you,
A confused almost 6th year!

You've no need to worry. You won't need honours maths. Nothing has been agreed on yet. Much more notice would be needed.

[DonnaMaguire]

Thank very much for replying so quickly! Do you reckon that it will be brought in for the 2013 leaving cert students though because I know of a huge number of people hoping to go on for primary school teaching? Would you suggest that I still speak with my present maths teacher and career guidance teachers when I go back to school then? Thank you again, I really appreciate it!

[dambarude]

Originally Posted by DonnaMaguire

Thank very much for replying so quickly! Do you reckon that it will be brought in for the 2013 leaving cert students though because I know of a huge number of people hoping to go on for primary school teaching? Would you suggest that I still speak with my present maths teacher and career guidance teachers when I go back to school then? Thank you again, I really appreciate it!

It's hard to say. It would have to be announced pretty soon if that were the case, because they'd need at the VERY minimum two year's notice (ie. start of fifth year, pre-leaving cert). In reality prospective teachers should be let know before that, so that they wouldn't drop to pass at junior cert level.

No decision has been made, but the following document throws light on where the Teaching Council is headed with the issue: http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileu...uly%202011.pdf. See page 17. The Teaching Council would wish that the revised entry requirements be in place by 2016/2017. Note that they haven't proposed that Higher Maths would be necessary, an A1 at ordinary would do instead. But moves and talk more recent than that document have indicated that HL Maths could indeed be required.

[DonnaMaguire]

Okay, I think I understand the current situation a lot better than before! I just don't understand why all the focus is placed on maths, because everyone has different strong points, it doesn't mean that they aren't going to be a bad / incapable teacher. Thanks a million for all of your help!

[doc_17]

There isn't a hope in hell that higher maths will be needed to apply for teaching in the next two years.

They just couldn't do something like that without gIving proper notice so you have nothing to worry about

[DonnaMaguire]

@doc_07 you have no idea how relieved I am to hear that! I was so annoyed when I heard it on the radio! Thanks

[needhelp12345]

Hey just in 5th year now and i was wondering can they bring it out as a requirement for the 2014 year ?? when is the latest they can bring it out ?? in other words how long should i keep on honours maths just to be safe ?

I really want to drop as its so hard and i want to pay attenetion to other subjects ?

[Armelodie]

Originally Posted by DonnaMaguire

@doc_07 you have no idea how relieved I am to hear that! I was so annoyed when I heard it on the radio! Thanks

Industries On about the poor level of language learning in schools now, think the maths issue has been forgotten about now... Plus cest change

[bdoo]

Originally Posted by Armelodie

Industries On about the poor level of language learning in schools now, think the maths issue has been forgotten about now... Plus cest change

It'll be the church next - not enough religion! Everyone wants their sector looked after. Probably the biggest failing of the education system over the past twenty years was European languages imo, all of our emigrants and all to English speaking countries. I know Europe is in recession too before I get attacked. But I could write essays about drugs and social problems for lc French but could only ask for a ticket to Lyon orally!

I think the whole argument about maths is wrong. Engineers Ireland drive me nuts. We should be good at maths because in everyday life we need it and we need the skills that come with maths. The knowledge economy benefit is secondary in my opinion.

We should study languages because they give us an insight into the culture of other countries and broaden our horizons. We learn to ask, ou est la gare? Very little real life use.