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Gender issues in After Hours - Your feedback requested.

  • 25-07-2012 10:38am
    #1
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    It has been noted that threads involving gender issues in AH are creating problems for some of our posters.

    This is something the moderators have been discussing at length. We are trying to improve the manner in which discussions take place. The idea is to be as inclusive as possible.

    Traditionally we run our own occasional feedback threads in after hours. Try to feel the pulse of the forum in this manner.

    However we feel there is a benefit to running a thread about this in the feedback forum, not on home turf so to speak. We want your feedback.

    Sexism and dismissive attitudes seem to be among the highest complaints. Again, this is on both sides so we want to hear from both sides.

    As we want to make sure we get the balance right we are looking to you to help show us the way.

    Where do you think this could be improved?

    Frequently threads of this type are used to point out individual posters or posts. Please use the report post function or PM a mod for that rather than highlighting that in here.

    We are hoping to gain some insight here rather than have a witch hunt so please try and keep the feedback useful and the thread even tempered.
    Post edited by Shield on


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Comments

  • #2
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,057 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Tbh, I have never really noticed a problem on gender related threads. At least no more of a problem than is evident in any other type of thread. Some people are just dicks, and some threads/topics happen to attract more of them than others. I don't see how it can be remedied other than by dealing with those threads/posters on a case-by-case basis.

    Having just read through some of the posts in that 'stag party' thread, I think that rather than there being an issue with sexism or whatever, there is a wider issue of some downright nasty people taking part in threads in general.


  • #3
    Gongoozler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,263 ✭✭✭Gongoozler


    I, as a female, don't have any issues with it, and fail to see the issue others talk about regarding sexism. Both sides are around about equally culpable when it comes to sexism and generalisations in AH. I have to say I agree that most of the generalisations are true. I can see how it's frustrating for anyone to have a generalisation made against their gender, because it automatically includes them in it, when they obviously feel it isn't correct about themselves. Though I would find a number of opinions on Boards.ie and from other people IRL equally as frustrating, as, in the nature of opinions, they are different to my own experiences and my opinions.

    I think people need to stop taking things so personally.


  • #4
    Noah Incalculable Barometer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭ Noah Incalculable Barometer


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Having just read through some of the posts in that 'stag party' thread, I think that rather than there being an issue with sexism or whatever, there is a wider issue of some downright nasty people taking part in threads in general.

    It was mental how that escalated to people posting her pics and phone number in After Hours so quickly. Ugly, bitter, bullying behaviour.


  • #5
    Cardinal Richelieu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    Noah Incalculable Barometer wrote: »
    It was mental how that escalated to people posting her pics and phone number in After Hours so quickly. Ugly, bitter, bullying behaviour.

    Hopefully the Garda will be alerted to some of the unsavory posters who seem to use "its only a joke defence" to say some pretty vile things in that thread.


  • #6
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    It has been noted that threads involving gender issues in AH are creating problems for some of our posters.

    This is something the moderators have been discussing at length. We are trying to improve the manner in which (...........) and the thread even tempered.

    Apart from the odd gobshite I think the level of noise in complaints far outstrips that of the "sexists". In the last two or three threads where the issue came up, when I asked for specific examples they usually morphed into something other than was initially claimed.

    When there was clear trolling ('Irish women are...' etc) I asked if the post had been reported. 'No'. Why? "nothing would be done". How do you know? 'I suppose I just thought...'.


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  • #7
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    To be honest, I don't see what the big deal is. Sexist jokes happen everywhere, by both men and women. I agree that they're almost constant in AH, but I think that unless they're referring to specific posters (for example, a person responding to a female poster, telling her to get back in the kitchen or whatever), just leave it be. Sweeping generalisations are idiotic and I doubt many people take them seriously. It's when a poster makes a sexist comment directly towards another poster that things need to stop.


    Tbh the only thing that annoys me about the forum is the number of rape jokes. A thread about a man being raped was recently closed because of this, yet I have never seen a thread about a woman being raped be closed because of victim blaming statements that idiots like to post for attention. That's really the only thing that písses me off. The problem with that is, it's mostly female rape cases in the news, therefore mostly female rape cases posted about on AH, and it sickens me seeing the men making so many victim blaming comments. Some of them are absolutely disgusting.


    Like my_name_is_URL said, sexism isn't a massive problem. The main problem is the amount of nasty, bítchy people using AH.


  • #8
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Don't like it? Don't read it or contribute to it. Its a hard world. There is always something to dislike on AH at any given moment (well the first few pages) quite why sexism/sexist/sexy behaviour is being singled out beats me. What about all those 800 years/NornIron/Brit/Yank/Israel threads full of hate ignorance and irrational thinking? Is anyone going to worry about them? Nope.


  • #9
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    mike65 wrote: »
    Don't like it? Don't read it or contribute to it. Its a hard world. There is always something to dislike on AH at any given moment (well the first few pages) quite why sexism/sexist/sexy behaviour is being singled out beats me. What about tall those 800 years/NornIron/Brit/Yank/Israel threads full of hate ignorance and irrational thinking? Is anyone going to worry about them? Nope.

    That's quite an uninformed attitude to take.

    I would assume the reason that sexism is coming up as a topic for discussion is because there are a lot of women on boards. When it comes to Brits, Americans, Israelis and such, there are (presumably, as this is an Irish site) a lot less of them on the site. Therefore, there won't be many people kicking up a stink about that, but there are a large proportion of female users on the site. Obviously if a lot of women are complaining, boards will want to fix it since the site hardly wants to lose members.

    And frankly, I'm not offended by any sexist joke, or rape joke, or anything like that. It's the internet, not srs bznz. The fact of that matter is though, if there is a lot of sexism against women, it's only right that it be sorted out.


  • #10
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    LyndaMcL wrote: »
    That's quite an uninformed attitude to take.

    I would assume the reason that sexism is coming up as a topic for discussion is because there are a lot of women on boards. When it comes to Brits, Americans, Israelis and such, there are (presumably, as this is an Irish site) a lot less of them on the site. Therefore, there won't be many people kicking up a stink about that, but there are a large proportion of female users on the site. Obviously if a lot of women are complaining, boards will want to fix it since the site hardly wants to lose members.

    Right so numbers matter more than behaviour, okay
    LyndaMcL wrote: »
    And frankly, I'm not offended by any sexist joke, or rape joke, or anything like that. It's the internet, not srs bznz. The fact of that matter is though, if there is a lot of sexism against women, it's only right that it be sorted out.

    This is the internet though and you deserve a slap with a big fish (Monty Python style) for typing "srs bznz"


  • #11
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    I found the topic on is my housemate a slag or a prostitute pretty distasteful.
    And the way people casually throw around the words 'rape' is disgusting and childish referencing things as 'ghey' is not very grown up.


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  • #12
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Two points.

    First is that I do think there is somewhat of a laddish mentally in after hours more so than outright sexism. Whether you feel its an issue to be tackled I don't know... I can't say I've seen much more than the chain her to the sink comments.

    Secondly and much more importantly..who the hell made Dr bollocko a category moderator and why the hell did I not get that memo


  • #13
    phasers
    Registered Users Posts: 18,159 ✭✭✭✭phasers


    AckwelFoley wrote: »
    Two points.

    First is that I do think there is somewhat of a laddish mentally in after hours more so than outright sexism. Whether you feel its an issue to be tackled I don't know... I can't say I've seen much more than the chain her to the sink comments.

    Secondly and much more importantly..who the hell made Dr bollocko a category moderator and why the hell did I not get that memo
    I wholeheartedly endorse this post.

    Honestly I've never seen any kind of huge sexism epidemic in AH, I see a few kitchen comments thrown about but very rarely directed at other posters. Like AckwelFoley says, it's just a lads' thing. I've never seen anything malicious behind it.


    Congrats on the promotion Doc! Only a year after my nomination too...


  • #14
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    mike65 wrote: »
    Right so numbers matter more than behaviour, okay

    Did I say that?

    What I said is that, as there are larger numbers of Irish women on this site than people of other nationalities, sexism will be picked up on more, because more people will complain about that than about other types of smart árse comments. I didn't say anything about it being right. I just said it how it is.

    :rolleyes:


  • #15
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    AckwelFoley wrote: »
    .............

    Secondly and much more importantly..who the hell made Dr bollocko a category moderator and why the hell did I not get that memo

    While the hieroglyphics of Egypt record a great many things, they tend to avoid failures, disasters and calamity. Take from that what ye will.....


  • #16
    Where To
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Where To


    There will always be a few idiots that take things too far, no matter how strict or lenient the boundaries of discussion are they will break them eventually.

    As long as they are dealt with there's not really a lot more can be done is there?*



    *although we could possibly ban wimminz from the internet:P


  • #17
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,018 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    The kind of remarks that have caused this discussion are generally from a type of poster who has no significant thought processes, they are just spouting populist nonsense and repeating stuff they see and hear. There are sexist remarks, but there are also bigoted remarks about - as Mike65 said - a dozen other social groupings.

    What is more worrying is the kind of response that LyndaMcL has given - Brit/American/Israeli remarks are not a problem because there are not so many of those groupings on Boards! In the same way that she obviously does not 'get it', so there are people who will never see anything wrong with making sexist/racist etc remarks, they see themselves as just 'telling it as it is'.

    Either AH can be left to those who want to share their gutter press opinions, have a laugh and engage in the kind of discussions that are causing offence, and let everyone else keep out if they don't want to be offended.

    Or it can continue to be cleaned up and formalised into a general kind of 'off topic' forum where discussions, both serious and humorous, can be had within strict boundaries of respect for all social groups.

    At the moment it seems to be trying to do both, and annoying both sides.

    The entire site has changed considerably over the last number of years, including AH. I think has improved, but maybe AH should be left as a bit of a wilderness for the use of those people who don't want the formalised approach of the rest of the site.

    It is arguable that the people giving offense should be educated, but maybe there should be a place for people who don't want to be educated.


  • #18
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    I think it is needed (AH) for some light relief from other topics.

    The judgement line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable in this situation is always going to be contentious as the After hours format allows a certain type of politically incorrect comment. It is a very small step from this type of comment to allowing comments that could be genuinely racist for example. It is fact that people have different tolerance in terms of accepting politically incorrect comment and as has been already pointed out society in general is lowering its moral standards (the press is a good example of this).


  • #19
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    What is more worrying is the kind of response that LyndaMcL has given - Brit/American/Israeli remarks are not a problem because there are not so many of those groupings on Boards! In the same way that she obviously does not 'get it', so there are people who will never see anything wrong with making sexist/racist etc remarks, they see themselves as just 'telling it as it is'.

    As I made clear in my last post, I never said and never meant that comments against other nationalities are not a problem. They are. What I said was that comments against women are more seen because there are more women on the site reporting them than there are other nationalities reporting comments against them.

    I never said that it's not a problem. :-/ Any form of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, is wrong.


  • #20
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,018 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    LyndaMcL wrote: »
    As I made clear in my last post, I never said and never meant that comments against other nationalities are not a problem. They are. What I said was that comments against women are more seen because there are more women on the site reporting them than there are other nationalities reporting comments against them.

    I never said that it's not a problem. :-/ Any form of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc, is wrong.

    I don't think you made it very clear, it was a little ambiguous, however I can see what you intended to say and I apologise for my misleading response.


  • #21
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users Posts: 12,427 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    By its very nature, AH is a kind of a mish mash of all topics from every aspect of life, and therefore will attract differing opinions.....especially when you consider the amount of traffic it gets.
    I think the problem is different people see AH in different ways.

    There are probably 3 main types of people who frequent AH...
      Those who see it as a kind of free-for-all forum to take the píss out of everything.
      Those who see it as a forum to talk about all manner of subjects but want to engage in serious discussions.
      Those in between points one and two. They like to engage in serious discussions in AH but also enjoy the light-hearted side of it all. I think this makes up the majority of posters in AH.


    I know creating more fora is not the goal on Boards, and in fact the opposite is true.....it seems to be actively slimming down. And this is a good thing as there are good arguments for saying Boards is too cluttered. But I think AH is the one place where an additional forum would possibly be a good thing. It could be split into 2 sub-forums:
      A totally light-hearted forum where *almost* anything goes, and taking the mick is the norm.
    2. A more serious forum where serious discussion can take place on all manner of subjects.


    I know people say "if you want a serious discussion go to Humanities" but I don't think the Humanities forum is quite right either.

    Having said all that though I take on board the argument against splitting up AH and I can see the reasoning behind it.
    Other than that though I can't see a way of resolving it.


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  • #22
    Esoteric_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,255 ✭✭✭✭Esoteric_


    looksee wrote: »
    I don't think you made it very clear, it was a little ambiguous, however I can see what you intended to say and I apologise for my misleading response.


    I don't mean my first post. I know I wrote that badly, and I clarified what I meant in a later post.

    I need to just learn to edit. :rolleyes:


  • #23
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    I think there are more people willing to argue against the outright blatant sexist remarks and attitudes than there was before.
    It is necessary to have these discussions in AH, rather than clamping down on them and locking the thread straight away before it has taken shape. Even threads that are trollish in their title and OP have turned out interesting discussions after involvement. But I guess it can be one of the most difficult topics to moderate. I think on thread warnings by Mods such as Micky Dolenzs are fair, not targetting specific posters at first but reminding the community that it can easily steer into sexist territory if not kept in check.


  • #24
    mackg
    Registered Users Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    There was Dark Crystal's thread recently where this was discussed at length. it was pointed out to me that there are many female posters who no longer post in AH because they didn't like the stick they received in regards sexism.

    I would hate to see posters being bullied out of a forum but at the end of the day if the attitudes they took offence to don't break the rules then maybe the forum just isn't for them, if the posts that bothered them were against the charter then the solution is to report the posts and the poster will have to stop or be banned.

    If you're not going to report the posts then there is no point complaining on-thread about the problem in the hope that a mod stumbles across it.

    I would be interested to know what the ratio of complaints within AH to actual reported posts is? What's the point in having a process for dealing with these type of issues if no one uses it?

    In summation as I said on that thread, if people actually gave it a solid month of reporting all posts with this sexist attitude and let the mods see the full picture they would have a better idea the extent of the problem and whether further measures need to be taken.

    Personally I like AH the way it is and tend not to get bothered about stuff I read there, some people are idiots- leave them at it. If they go too far report the posts, problem solved.


  • #25
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,547 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    In the last year I've found myself posting almost never in AH unless it was on some hot button issue and even then, I typically avoid the place now. To me it seems like the forum has been overtaken with more noise than signal; perhaps a part of that is how often users are being moderated. It's akin actually to most message boards, where there is an overwhelming amount of activity, all of which is unmoderated more or less. This plays into how much moderator activity there is available in comparison to the amount of traffic, and the self-regulation of the users to report offensive posts. For my own part I've felt that posts I've reported aren't regularly acted upon, especially posts containing fallibly bigoted statements.

    I'd advise any change in direction leans more in favor of a harder line/more civility than anything. It will surely piss off the few offenders that aggravate it but for the rest it will make the place a better read.


  • #26
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Overheal wrote: »
    In the last year I've found myself posting almost never in AH unless it was on some hot button issue and even then, I typically avoid the place now. To me it seems like the forum has been overtaken with more noise than signal; perhaps a part of that is how often users are being moderated. It's akin actually to most message boards, where there is an overwhelming amount of activity, all of which is unmoderated more or less. This plays into how much moderator activity there is available in comparison to the amount of traffic, and the self-regulation of the users to report offensive posts. For my own part I've felt that posts I've reported aren't regularly acted upon, especially posts containing fallibly bigoted statements.

    I'd advise it leans more in favor of a harder line/more civility than anything. It will surely piss off the few offenders that aggravate it but for the rest it will make the place a better read.

    Overheal my American friend AH has not changed.
    The posters have. I have spent most of my time since I j joined as a member there but I would say if I posted there a dozen times in the last year most of those posts were in the last few days. You grow out of it. It's sort of like college..great at the time but you tend to tire of it.


    I'm on boards once a week but tend to use the other forums as an information portal.


  • #27
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Overheal wrote: »
    In the last year I've found myself posting almost never in AH unless it was on some hot button issue and even then, I typically avoid the place now. To me it seems like the forum has been overtaken with more noise than signal; perhaps a part of that is how often users are being moderated. It's akin actually to most message boards, where there is an overwhelming amount of activity, all of which is unmoderated more or less. This plays into how much moderator activity there is available in comparison to the amount of traffic, and the self-regulation of the users to report offensive posts. For my own part I've felt that posts I've reported aren't regularly acted upon, especially posts containing fallibly bigoted statements.

    I'd advise any change in direction leans more in favor of a harder line/more civility than anything. It will surely piss off the few offenders that aggravate it but for the rest it will make the place a better read.


    While its good that you reported posts, the fact is that just because you considered it actionable doesn't mean that it was.

    AH seems much the same to me now as when I joined. As the discussions tend to be cyclical, it can get a bit wearisome, but thats the way of all "General" discussion boards.


  • #28
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    This seems to be focusing on jokes, which are just jokes. A thread on After Hours (Why don't women go on shooting rampages?) was closed just now with a link to this thread. It was funny IMO and the jokes were good-natured. I think it's a pity such a thread gets closed but the ones about Irish women being hideous-looking and right bitches and how life is easy for women and hard for men etc, have been kept open. The focus seems to be on the wrong stuff IMO.

    To those who say they can't see the above type of animosity and that there are equal amounts of threads full of vitriol towards men - blind and/or obtuse.

    "Don't like it? Don't read it!" - stupid soundbite. How about such threads get clamped down on in the first place?


  • #29
    FatherLen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭FatherLen


    After being linked to this thread after the closure of one in ah because of comments made by user(myself included), i decided to give my outlook.
    I feel that the vast majority of users in AH that have used "sexist" comments, have used them in jest and have never intended offense to anyone.
    AH is filled with broad generalizations about every group and gender and are always talked about in a humorous environment and again never intended to offend.
    I in no way condone sexism or any stereotypes or generalizations but in the context of AH i feel it is just a joke. Even in AH a joke can go too far as we seen in the recent batman shootings thread and i agree that those jokes were in incredibly bad taste but the vast majority of gender based comments usually tend to stick only in the first or second page of a thread and are then forgotten. If these jokes were intended to offend or demoralize users they would be rampant throughout threads.

    i would like to finish this post with an apology to any user that has ever taken offense to any of my comments and would like to reiterate my previous point that they are all just in jest.


  • #30
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Noah Incalculable Barometer wrote: »

    It was mental how that escalated to people posting her pics and phone number in After Hours so quickly. Ugly, bitter, bullying behaviour.

    Didn't stay in the thread too long but if that's the case, a permanent site ban should be enforced for stuff like that.


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  • #31
    mackg
    Registered Users Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    Onixx wrote: »
    This seems to be focusing on jokes, which are just jokes. A thread on After Hours (Why don't women go on shooting rampages?) was closed just now with a link to this thread. It was funny IMO and the jokes were good-natured. I think it's a pity such a thread gets closed but the ones about Irish women being hideous-looking and right bitches and how life is easy for women and hard for men etc, have been kept open. The focus seems to be on the wrong stuff IMO.

    To those who say they can't see the above type of animosity and that there are equal amounts of threads full of vitriol towards men - blind and/or obtuse.

    "Don't like it? Don't read it!" - stupid soundbite. How about such threads get clamped down on in the first place?

    I'd say that was closed because the mods aren't allowing anything slide until they have made a decision how to progress. Or as it has been said here, if those posts were reported.


This discussion has been closed.
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