Motor Caravans Are Not Allowed Use The Road !!!

niloc1951 · 21-10-2014 12:35pm #1

Reading the following:

The expression “temporary dwelling” means any—

(a) tent, or
(b) van or other conveyance (whether on wheels or not), or
(c) shed, hut or similar structure, or
(d) vessel on inland waters,

used for human habitation or constructed or adapted for such use;

Now read this:

69.—(1) (a) Any person who without lawful authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on a national road, motorway, busway or protected road shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) Any person who without lawful authority or the consent of a road authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on any other prescribed road or prescribed class, subclass or type of road shall be guilty of an offence.

(c) A consent under paragraph (b) may be given by the road authority subject to such conditions, restrictions or requirements as it thinks fit and any person who fails to comply with such conditions, restrictions or requirements shall be guilty of an offence.

Question is:

If the VAN or Conveyance has a current Road Tax paid does that satisfy the requirement for Lawful Authority

If it doesn't the law is an ass as it means that anyone who places their motor caravan on the roads of Ireland is breaking the law

Malta1 · 21-10-2014 1:59pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Reading the following:

The expression “temporary dwelling” means any—

(a) tent, or
(b) van or other conveyance (whether on wheels or not), or
(c) shed, hut or similar structure, or
(d) vessel on inland waters,

used for human habitation or constructed or adapted for such use;

Now read this:

69.—(1) (a) Any person who without lawful authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on a national road, motorway, busway or protected road shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) Any person who without lawful authority or the consent of a road authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on any other prescribed road or prescribed class, subclass or type of road shall be guilty of an offence.

(c) A consent under paragraph (b) may be given by the road authority subject to such conditions, restrictions or requirements as it thinks fit and any person who fails to comply with such conditions, restrictions or requirements shall be guilty of an offence.

Question is:

If the VAN or Conveyance has a current Road Tax paid does that satisfy the requirement for Lawful Authority

If it doesn't the law is an ass as it means that anyone who places their motor caravan on the roads of Ireland is breaking the law

May I politely suggest that you DO NOT send this to the authorities in Galway:D

niloc1951 · 21-10-2014 2:32pm

Malta1 wrote: »

May I politely suggest that you DO NOT send this to the authorities in Galway:D

I just put it up to provoke some discussion in the issue

The temporary dwelling bit in reality can't be applied to motor caravans, if it was it would mean that they can't be legally used on the road without the required permission. The question is, is paying road tax and being issued with a certificate that the tax has been paid (tax disc) does or does not that constitute being granted the required permission.

However, we do know that many councils use the temporary dwelling angle to make life difficult for us.

If paying the road tax gets the required permission all the bans in place based on the temporary dwelling legislation aren't worth the paper they are written on.
If it doesn't we had better not place our motor caravans on the road lest we commit an offence

21-10-2014 4:06pm

It's not road tax anymore it's motor tax to alleviate the responsibility from the CC for vehicle damage due to poor road condition.

pastense · 22-10-2014 10:11am

I'm afraid quoting laws and interpreting and presenting the opinion as fact could put people in awkward positions, such as drawing a conclusion like this; "means that anyone who places their motor caravan on the roads of Ireland is breaking the law".
It doesn't mean anything of the kind.

*Kol* · 22-10-2014 10:22am

pastense wrote: »

I'm afraid quoting laws and interpreting and presenting the opinion as fact could put people in awkward positions, such as drawing a conclusion like this; "means that anyone who places their motor caravan on the roads of Ireland is breaking the law".
It doesn't mean anything of the kind.

In fairness Niloc is not interpreting the wording literally and suggesting that's what's it actually means. He is just using it to start a debate on the subject.

niloc1951 · 22-10-2014 12:51pm

pastense wrote: »

I'm afraid quoting laws and interpreting and presenting the opinion as fact could put people in awkward positions, such as drawing a conclusion like this; "means that anyone who places their motor caravan on the roads of Ireland is breaking the law".
It doesn't mean anything of the kind.

As you say the interpretation is my opinion based on my understanding of what is written in the S.I.'s using my understanding of the English language.
I am not presenting my interpretation as fact.

Problem is, it is those Acts which many councils use to prohibit the parking of motorhomes, but are they right to use them, is it right to classify motorhomes as temporary dwellings for the purpose of controlling where they can be parked.

Irishgoatman · 22-10-2014 2:06pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

As you say the interpretation is my opinion based on my understanding of what is written in the S.I.'s using my understanding of the English language.
I am not presenting my interpretation as fact.

Problem is, it is those Acts which many councils use to prohibit the parking of motorhomes, but are they right to use them, is it right to classify motorhomes as temporary dwellings for the purpose of controlling where they can be parked.

Life gets more complicated by the minute

.

If any council tried using these acts as a means of keeping us out then surely they would also have to ban trucks that have a sleeping compartment, and I can't see that happening.

As far as I'm concerned the fact that I have a valid driving licence, valid motor tax and a current test cert, then I am legally allowed to use the public roads, subject of course to any local by-laws.

I just love these weird and wonderful items. Thanks niloc

.

Morgan The Moon · 23-10-2014 8:39pm

How is it that we are bashed over the heads with constant claims "it's not our fault" it's that lot in Brussels! Come use the EU legislation of which is being rammed down our throats to start fighting back. Irish politicians signed up to abide by EU legislation. It is time to inform them of our EU rights. CRW total farce!! but we are told "the EU regulations" required it! EU regulations deem it necessary to provide facilities for us.

martinedwards · 27-10-2014 9:05am

legally allowed to drive up the road?

yes

legally allowed to park up overnight on the roadside?

open to interpretation.

if there is one MH in a layby causing no-one any harm then well and good.

if there are ten, spilling out onto the road with loads of litter and raw sewage being tipped over the hedge into someones garden, then they have a law to enforce.

Pro Hoc Vice · 27-10-2014 9:17am

niloc1951 wrote: »

Reading the following:

The expression “temporary dwelling” means any—

(a) tent, or
(b) van or other conveyance (whether on wheels or not), or
(c) shed, hut or similar structure, or
(d) vessel on inland waters,

used for human habitation or constructed or adapted for such use;

Now read this:

69.—(1) (a) Any person who without lawful authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on a national road, motorway, busway or protected road shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) Any person who without lawful authority or the consent of a road authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on any other prescribed road or prescribed class, subclass or type of road shall be guilty of an offence.

(c) A consent under paragraph (b) may be given by the road authority subject to such conditions, restrictions or requirements as it thinks fit and any person who fails to comply with such conditions, restrictions or requirements shall be guilty of an offence.

Question is:

If the VAN or Conveyance has a current Road Tax paid does that satisfy the requirement for Lawful Authority

If it doesn't the law is an ass as it means that anyone who places their motor caravan on the roads of Ireland is breaking the law

A simple answer to your question is no. Having tax is not the granting of permission under the relevant SI.

Also when looking at any legislation it is difficult to interpret in a vacuum, it is necessary to look at the whole SI and/or the relevant Act and to the interpretation section of both.

It's also important to look at the purpose of the Act when interpreting it. The Act clearly is not dealing with road tax or road fund or any form of tax. It is simply a section that allows the LA the power to remove temporary dwelings from the road if necessary.

niloc1951 · 27-10-2014 5:56pm

martinedwards wrote: »

legally allowed to drive up the road?

yes

legally allowed to park up overnight on the roadside?

open to interpretation.

if there is one MH in a layby causing no-one any harm then well and good.

if there are ten, spilling out onto the road with loads of litter and raw sewage being tipped over the hedge into someones garden, then they have a law to enforce.

Of course they do, it's The Litter Pollution Act. 1997 Which is why it's difficult to understand why non-offenders are also penalised by a blanket denial of access.

Pro Hoc Vice · 27-10-2014 7:20pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Of course they do, it's The Litter Pollution Act. 1997 Which is why it's difficult to understand why non-offenders are also penalised by a blanket denial of access.

It's not a blanket denial as any person can request permission.

niloc1951 · 28-10-2014 9:55pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

It's not a blanket denial as any person can request permission.

Must disagree.

If the administrative structure charged with operating the law doesn't facilitate a person to make a request to use the facility in question (the parking area) and get a meaningful reply there and then, that person is effectively denied access by the law whether or not that is the intended consequence.

This obviously is the case in the examples referred to in this thread and therefore it is effectively a blanket ban.

Pro Hoc Vice · 28-10-2014 11:12pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Must disagree.

If the administrative structure charged with operating the law doesn't facilitate a person to make a request to use the facility in question (the parking area) and get a meaningful reply there and then, that person is effectively denied access by the law whether or not that is the intended consequence.

This obviously is the case in the examples referred to in this thread and therefore it is effectively a blanket ban.

Any such decision is subject to judicial review. So any such denial must give reasons for the decision and those reasons must be reasonable. For any decision maker to as a matter of course refuse every appliction with no weighing up of each request would be in breach of constitutional justice.

niloc1951 · 29-10-2014 12:46am

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Any such decision is subject to judicial review. So any such denial must give reasons for the decision and those reasons must be reasonable. For any decision maker to as a matter of course refuse every appliction with no weighing up of each request would be in breach of constitutional justice.

So, I'm driving from Galway to Wexford and I want to pull in and take a break from driving but all suitable lay-by's have hight barriers which deny access to my vehicle do I need to go through the motions set out above

. Do I need to seek a judicial review. How do I apply to have my request considered particularly at 7:30pm on a Sunday.

Realistically I am denied access due to the misbehaviour of a few, misbehaviour which can be dealt with under law.
However lazy administrators prefer to avoid the trouble of taking action under the laws of the land to sanction the few law breaking citizens, instead they victimise the many law abiding citizens by unilaterally denying access to certain sections of the road.

It is unfortunate that there is no organisation about with the funds and inclination to challenge such action which is surely unlawful here as it has been proven to be unlawful elsewhere in the EU.

Irishgoatman · 29-10-2014 2:43pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Any such decision is subject to judicial review. So any such denial must give reasons for the decision and those reasons must be reasonable. For any decision maker to as a matter of course refuse every appliction with no weighing up of each request would be in breach of constitutional justice.

It sounds as though you're a member of the Legal profession?, if so you could be very useful to us.

zambo · 29-10-2014 5:20pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

So
It is unfortunate that there is no organisation about with the funds and inclination to challenge such action which is surely unlawful here as it has been proven to be unlawful elsewhere in the EU.

Maybe now is the time to set up something.I everyone in Ireland with a camper chipped in 1 euro we could get some useful advise for 10,000 euro.
OK so that's not going to happen but if even a small fraction of the owners in the country put in just the cost of one nights camping and we could get anything done it would be a great investment in the future of our hobby.If we could get a lawyer to look at how height barriers were deemed illegal in France and the legal basis of aires and see if it has any relevance to Ireland we would be doing something that we could all benifit from.

Yours Zambo.

campingcarist · 29-10-2014 6:30pm

zambo wrote: »

Maybe now is the time to set up something.I everyone in Ireland with a camper chipped in 1 euro we could get some useful advise for 10,000 euro.
OK so that's not going to happen but if even a small fraction of the owners in the country put in just the cost of one nights camping and we could get anything done it would be a great investment in the future of our hobby.If we could get a lawyer to look at how height barriers were deemed illegal in France and the legal basis of aires and see if it has any relevance to Ireland we would be doing something that we could all benifit from.

Yours Zambo.

As a Motorhomer, I certainly do not go "camping". If we all used the term Motoerhomes instead of campers, we might get somewhere.

zambo · 29-10-2014 7:54pm

campingcarist wrote: »

As a Motorhomer, I certainly do not go "camping". If we all used the term Motoerhomes instead of campers, we might get somewhere.

I was referring to the cost of spending the night in a campsite which most people would refer to as camping.I agree that we are not camping when parked in a lay by or parking place .
Strange that you use the moniker Campingcarist if you have strong feelings about being accused of camping.

Yours Zambo

zambo · 29-10-2014 7:55pm

campingcarist wrote: »

As a Motorhomer, I certainly do not go "camping". If we all used the term Motoerhomes instead of campers, we might get somewhere.

I was referring to the cost of spending the night in a campsite which most people would refer to as camping.I agree that we are not camping when parked in a lay by or parking place .
Strange that you use the moniker Campingcarist if you have strong feelings about being accused of camping.

Yours Zambo

zambo · 29-10-2014 7:55pm

campingcarist wrote: »

As a Motorhomer, I certainly do not go "camping". If we all used the term Motoerhomes instead of campers, we might get somewhere.

I was referring to the cost of spending the night in a campsite which most people would refer to as camping.I agree that we are not camping when parked in a lay by or parking place .
Strange that you use the moniker Campingcarist if you have strong feelings about being accused of camping.

Yours Zambo

zambo · 29-10-2014 7:55pm

campingcarist wrote: »

As a Motorhomer, I certainly do not go "camping". If we all used the term Motoerhomes instead of campers, we might get somewhere.

I was referring to the cost of spending the night in a campsite which most people would refer to as camping.I agree that we are not camping when parked in a lay by or parking place .
Strange that you use the moniker Campingcarist if you have strong feelings about being accused of camping.

Yours Zambo

zambo · 29-10-2014 8:00pm

zambo wrote: »

I was referring to the cost of spending the night in a campsite which most people would refer to as camping.I agree that we are not camping when parked in a lay by or parking place .
Strange that you use the moniker Campingcarist if you have strong feelings about being accused of camping.

Yours Zambo

Sorry for multiple postings,seems my tablet does not like the reverse button.
Zambo

*Kol* · 30-10-2014 1:13am

campingcarist wrote: »

As a Motorhomer, I certainly do not go "camping". If we all used the term Motoerhomes instead of campers, we might get somewhere.

If you don't camp then what do you do? Park? Motorhome? It looks like your name is a play on the french for motorhome, unfortunate choice given your post above. Maybe you should change to motorhomer, you could shorten it to homer altogether.

Edit. Btw that's not a personal attack. I just see the humour in someone who has "camping" in their name not wanting to be associated with camping!!

niloc1951 · 30-10-2014 10:19am

*Kol* wrote: »

If you don't camp then what do you do? Park? Motorhome? It looks like your name is a play on the french for motorhome, unfortunate choice given your post above. Maybe you should change to motorhomer, you could shorten it to homer altogether.

Edit. Btw that's not a personal attack. I just see the humour in someone who has "camping" in their name not wanting to be associated with camping!!

Campingcarist is from the French language, it is the word used to describes a person who uses a motorhome.
To be absolutely correct it's an adjective of the French word camping-car which is the equivalent of the English word motor caravan.
In France all types of motor caravans, A-class, coach-builts, PVC's etc. are simply referred to as camping-car

Campingcarist would be the French equivalent of our word motorcaravanner.

And, camping is definitely not permitted on an Aire Stationnement pour Camping-car

Morgan The Moon · 30-10-2014 11:25am

zambo wrote: »

I was referring to the cost of spending the night in a campsite which most people would refer to as camping.I agree that we are not camping when parked in a lay by or parking place .
Strange that you use the moniker Campingcarist if you have strong feelings about being accused of camping.

Yours Zambo

Some camp site's have recognised that sometimes Motorhomes and sometimes other's, do not require to use the camping facilities.

Hence the term "quick stop"! This is offered by an increasing number of different types of user's. Generally the cost's are vastly reduced, nearly always in line with "Aire's, Stellplatz, etc. Never seen one in Ireland though. Are any offered here?

Morg

*Kol* · 30-10-2014 11:42am

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

Some camp site's have recognised that sometimes Motorhomes and sometimes other's, do not require to use the camping facilities.

Hence the term "quick stop"! This is offered by an increasing number of different types of user's. Generally the cost's are vastly reduced, nearly always in line with "Aire's, Stellplatz, etc. Never seen one in Ireland though. Are any offered here?

Morg

I have never seen them here. Would be a good thing to have at a petrol station. Could fill water/empty waste during a fuel stop.

Glastonut · 30-10-2014 11:56am

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

Some camp site's have recognised that sometimes Motorhomes and sometimes other's, do not require to use the camping facilities.

Hence the term "quick stop"! This is offered by an increasing number of different types of user's. Generally the cost's are vastly reduced, nearly always in line with "Aire's, Stellplatz, etc. Never seen one in Ireland though. Are any offered here?

Morg

One here shanoguehouse.co.uk/

niloc1951 · 30-10-2014 1:06pm

*Kol* wrote: »

I have never seen them here. Would be a good thing to have at a petrol station. Could fill water/empty waste during a fuel stop.

Many service stations in Europe have a motorhome service point, often found close to the car wash area, probably because the same services can be used.

Here's an example at a Super-U supermarket.

http://www.aire-service-camping-car-panoramique.fr/manche/50-sainte-mere-eglise-super-u

How about it Mr. SuperValu here in Ireland

*Kol* · 30-10-2014 1:16pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

How about it Mr. SuperValu here in Ireland

Another good location. I am surprised that the Applegreens etc on the motorways haven't put them in too.

Motor Caravans Are Not Allowed Use The Road !!!

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