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Getting into heaven.

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Comments

  • #32
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote: »
    I'm interested because Jesus is quite explicit about what to do with disobedient people in Luke 19:26-28

    Robin, are you trolling?

    You know very well that what you are quoting is a detail from a parable where Jesus describes the response of a 'hard man' king to a slothful servant. It is no way describing how Christ Himself viewed disobedient people or is it prescriptive as to how anyone should treat others. To pretend otherwise is either incredibly stupid or extremely dishonest.

    Do you really want to debate issues on this forum or do you want to persist in this kind of nonsense? I've made a New Year's resolution not to waste time debating with trolls. Should I make you #2 on my troll list?
    Likewise with your quote from 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, where the church membership is instructed to deliver certain fornicators "unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" which sounds rather less like revocation of the "privileges of church membership" and rather more like a call for peasants with torches and pitchforks to advance up the street to the fornicators door.

    Bearing in mind these quotes, do you accept that the bible isn't perfectly clear on what to do in this situation?
    The New Testament worldview is that believers have been delivered from the Kingdom of darkness into the protection and safety of the church. Therefore, to be expelled from church fellowship is to be handed back to Satan. I think that is perfectly clear to anyone who is interested in learning what the New testament actually teaches.


  • #33
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    It's not about forbidding the stoning, it is about saying (instructing) that he who is without sin should cast the first stone thereby acknowledging sin as a common trait amoung everyone. How can he then teach that one sinner can punish another? Becasue that's what happens in the example (the one Robin posted from Matthew) a guy commits a sin against his brother and Jesus tells him if it can't be resolved then the guy who committed the sin gets punished. My question therefore is: aren't we all sinners? What gives one sinner the right to punish another?

    It is absolutely about preventing a stoning. Read the whole passage in John chapter 8 instead of trying to rip a verse out of context to construct a pretended contradiction.

    The church is supposed to exercise discipline within its members to ensure that they observe sound doctrine and moral behaviour. This is taught in the Gospels and in Paul's epistles. Nowhere, of course, is violence enjoined or even hinted at for Christian believers. The discipline is simply to exclude from fellowship. They are told to have nothing to do with those who profess to be Christians yet peddle false doctrine or commit immorality.


  • #34
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    PDN wrote: »
    It is absolutely about preventing a stoning. Read the whole passage in John chapter 8 instead of trying to rip a verse out of context to construct a pretended contradiction.

    I'll rephrase becasue you seem to be having great difficutly understanding my point
    'It's not about preventing a stoning' - I said this in relation to to what we were discussing i.e people sinning against people - not in relation to the John chapter 8 and it's overall massage.
    PDN wrote:
    The church is supposed to exercise discipline within its members to ensure that they observe sound doctrine and moral behaviour. This is taught in the Gospels and in Paul's epistles. Nowhere, of course, is violence enjoined or even hinted at for Christian believers. The discipline is simply to exclude from fellowship. They are told to have nothing to do with those who profess to be Christians yet peddle false doctrine or commit immorality.

    Yes but hold on in Robins example Jesus tells a guy to ostracize his borther if his brtoher sins agaist him, my simple question was:
    Isn't this contradictory seeing as they are all sinners? This a fact which is pointed out by Jesus in other passages like for example the stoning. So why is Jesus giving one guy the license to punish his brother, by this logic they all should be punishing/ostracizing one another as, I repeat, they/we are all sinners.


  • #35
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    PDN wrote: »
    It is absolutely about preventing a stoning. Read the whole passage in John chapter 8 instead of trying to rip a verse out of context to construct a pretended contradiction.

    The church is supposed to exercise discipline within its members to ensure that they observe sound doctrine and moral behaviour. This is taught in the Gospels and in Paul's epistles. Nowhere, of course, is violence enjoined or even hinted at for Christian believers. The discipline is simply to exclude from fellowship. They are told to have nothing to do with those who profess to be Christians yet peddle false doctrine or commit immorality.

    This was always my understanding. Reading the actual verse it is difficult to argue with the logic.
    stevejazzx wrote: »
    Yes but hold on in Robins example Jesus tells a guy to oscracize his borther if his brtoher sins agaist him, my simple question was:
    Isn't this contradictory seeing as they are all sinners? This a fact which is pointed out by Jesus in other passages like for example the stoning. So why is Jesus giving one guy the license to punish his brother, by this logic they all should be punishing/ostracizing one another as, I repeat, they/we are all sinners.

    I wouldn't have thought so. Matthew 18 seems to me to encourage reconciliation rather than condemnation or punishment. Jesus outlines a process to attempt to reach that goal of reconciliation. If, however, reconciliation isn't achieved, the person who wilfully rejects the teachings of Christ is asked to leave. It's as simple as that, really. Indeed, you would be doing well to remain an employee beyond one warning if you seriously rejected a company's code of conduct.

    In this passage I don't see anything mentioned about punishment, nor is there any express mention that the person can never again re-enter the church. The very fact that God welcomes repentant sinners would suggest that that person would be welcomed like a prodigal son (at least by God) if they returned.

    On the other hand, I read John 8 as emphasising conscience (with respect to hypocrisy) and possible forgiveness.


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