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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

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13567…32

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    So pupils should only sit one set of formal external exams throughout their 2nd Level education?

    The high stake, one shot leaving cert? Right.

    This is the problem with the public making uninformed opinions.

    The junior cert is only regarded as a stepping stone to the leaving cert. No employer would regard the present junior cert highly.


  • Options
    #63
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    strike day Tuesday 2nd December with another in January


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    #64
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    So pupils should only sit one set of formal external exams throughout their 2nd Level education?

    The high stake, one shot leaving cert? Right.

    This is the problem with the public making uninformed opinions.

    The fact that over 90% of pupils go on to do the Leaving Cert means that external exams are not as necessary at the end of the Junior Cycle as they used to be. Furthermore, the new system will encourage even more pupils to stay for the Leaving Cert.

    With regards to the very small number of pupils who leave school after doing the Junior Cert, the issue of whether or not they have external exams at the end of Junior Cycle will make no difference to their prospects of getting jobs in bricklaying and other non-academic jobs.

    The fact that there is still a terminal exam in JCSA English (that'll probably also be the case in Irish, Maths and other subjects) means that pupils will still be prepared for the Leaving Cert and the gradual implementation of the JCSA means that there is enough time to introduce reforms to the Leaving Cert. That is an issue that Ruairí Quinn said that the Department is working on when he was interviewed on This Week earlier this year.


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    #65
    chases0102
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭chases0102


    Folks,

    What are the options for non-unionised teachers here? Cross the picket and undermine your colleagues?


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    #66
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    chases0102 wrote: »
    Folks,

    What are the options for non-unionised teachers here? Cross the picket and undermine your colleagues?

    yes or join the union


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    #67
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    chases0102 wrote: »
    Folks,

    What are the options for non-unionised teachers here? Cross the picket and undermine your colleagues?
    Schools are closed when strikes take place. Therefore, it wouldn't be possible for non-unionised teachers to work on a day on which a strike takes place.


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    #68
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    endakenny wrote: »
    Schools are closed when strikes take place. Therefore, it wouldn't be possible for non-unionised teachers to work on a day on which a strike takes place.

    They won't be closed unless maintenance/admin staff go out too.


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    #69
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    endakenny wrote: »
    Schools are closed when strikes take place. Therefore, it wouldn't be possible for non-unionised teachers to work on a day on which a strike takes place.

    this is not true


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    #70
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    km79 wrote: »
    this is not true
    Given that most teachers are union members, it would be impracticable for non-unionised teachers to enter the school on a strike day. Furthermore, even if it was possible, it would be unfair on pupils whose teachers are union members.


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    #71
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    spurious wrote: »
    They won't be closed unless maintenance/admin staff go out too.
    I recall that, back in 2000, the secretary said that she and her colleague in the office were not at work on the strike days.


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    #72
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    If the school is not open, there is no way to determine who is or is not making themselves available for work.

    Everyone could say they tried to get in and couldn't.


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    #73
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    endakenny wrote: »
    Given that most teachers are union members, it would be impracticable for non-unionised teachers to enter the school on a strike day. Furthermore, even if it was possible, it would be unfair on pupils whose teachers are union members.
    during the 2009 strike non union members were expected to report for work as normal in our school and did.
    The school was open. They are getting paid so they go to work.
    can I ask Enda are you a teacher ? You post a lot on the forum and post s lot of stuff as fact when it is not.
    Having said that if you are not a teacher you are actually a lot more informed than a lot of teachers I know which says a lot about the way the profession is going


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    #74
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    km79 wrote: »
    during the 2009 strike non union members were expected to report for work as normal in our school and did.
    The school was open. They are getting paid so they go to work.
    can I ask Enda are you a teacher ? You post a lot on the forum and post s lot of stuff as fact when it is not.
    Having said that if you are not a teacher you are actually a lot more informed than a lot of teachers I know which says a lot about the way the profession is going
    I'm not a teacher.


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    #75
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    endakenny wrote: »
    I'm not a teacher.

    fair enough
    as I said you are a lot more informed on a lot of our issues than my colleagues which is half the reason we are where we are


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    #76
    sitstill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭sitstill


    Join a union. Or phone in sick.


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    #77
    KrustyBurger
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭KrustyBurger


    chases0102 wrote: »
    Folks,

    What are the options for non-unionised teachers here? Cross the picket and undermine your colleagues?

    Or don't cross the picket.

    I'm not in a union, I left years ago but I wouldn't cross a picket. So I'll have my salary docked the same as my unionised colleagues.


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    #78
    Bobsammy
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭Bobsammy


    I filled out the online form to join the TUI in September but never got anything from them in the post and I never thought to follow up on it until this week. I've emailed them there today but haven't heard anything back yet. I hope they get back to me soon because I think we'll be in a very tricky position otherwise.


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    #79
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    implausible wrote: »
    Now, I'm hardly stupid enough to be basing that observation on what the book reps say!

    At Union meetings, INOTE conference and meeting with teachers in other schools in the county, I've found that the vast majority are using a new textbook, some like myself applied the new learning outcomes to the old book before deciding on a new text. ALL of the books refer to assessment and learning outcomes and I'm thankful for some of it as it's more useful that anything we were given at the laughably terrible inservice.

    If you are engaging with learning outcomes and assessment (in line with JCSA ) aren't you going against a union directive?


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    #80
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    eyescreamcone wrote: »
    The junior cert is only regarded as a stepping stone to the leaving cert. No employer would regard the present junior cert highly.

    If you dont recognise the importance of that stepping stone and its educational purpose then youare missing the point.

    Since when was the junior cert meant as a training program for the world of work at 15-16 years of age anyway?

    Its about education... not providing economic units for factories.


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    #81
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,111 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Bobsammy wrote: »
    I filled out the online form to join the TUI in September but never got anything from them in the post and I never thought to follow up on it until this week. I've emailed them there today but haven't heard anything back yet. I hope they get back to me soon because I think we'll be in a very tricky position otherwise.

    OT I realise, but to address this...

    Your application will have been sent by TUI Head Office to your local Branch Treasurer or Secretary (whichever handles membership in your Branch). There will have been the AGM since you applied, but they should have run memberships through at a committee meeting. Ask your school rep to check with your local Treasurer or Secretary.


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    #82
    Bobsammy
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭Bobsammy


    spurious wrote: »
    OT I realise, but to address this...

    Your application will have been sent by TUI Head Office to your local Branch Treasurer or Secretary (whichever handles membership in your Branch). There will have been the AGM since you applied, but they should have run memberships through at a committee meeting. Ask your school rep to check with your local Treasurer or Secretary.

    Thank you! I will ask on Monday!


  • Options
    #83
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    chases0102 wrote: »
    Folks,

    What are the options for non-unionised teachers here? Cross the picket and undermine your colleagues?

    If you want to get paid for the day write a letter saying you are available for work that day!

    In saying all that , a lot of principals and vp
    's are also union members, so they should be facilitating the strike in solidarity.

    Of they are not they may ask you to show up to do 'paperwork' so you may be asked to cross the picket (highly unlikely!) In which case you could put in for a personal day... maybe.

    Also if you are privately paid they have no way of knowing if you are in the union or not... (the ASTI accepts privately paid teachers into the union). So you could say nout .

    You are also free to join any picket you want I would presume...even if you are not a member.


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    #84
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Armelodie wrote: »
    If you dont recognise the importance of that stepping stone and its educational purpose then youare missing the point.

    Since when was the junior cert meant as a training program for the world of work at 15-16 years of age anyway?

    Its about education... not providing economic units for factories.

    Of course the junior cert is a stepping stone. As is 1st year and 2nd year.
    3rd year summer exams do not have to be state exams. You can get just as much out of it as an in house examination in my opinion.

    Also, teachers, while their opinion's are valid, are not the decision makers here.
    The decision makers are the elected politicians - elected by those who pay for the system.

    I feel that the teachers are against the proposal - not for educational purposes, but for selfish reasons. (better conditions etc)
    Fair enough if that is the case, but come out and say it.
    Don't hide behind the shield of "better education" - we're not buying it!


  • Options
    #85
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,574 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    eyescreamcone wrote: »
    Of course the junior cert is a stepping stone. As is 1st year and 2nd year.
    3rd year summer exams do not have to be state exams. You can get just as much out of it as an in house examination in my opinion.

    Also, teachers, while their opinion's are valid, are not the decision makers here.
    The decision makers are the elected politicians - elected by those who pay for the system.

    I feel that the teachers are against the proposal - not for educational purposes, but for selfish reasons. (better conditions etc)
    Fair enough if that is the case, but come out and say it.
    Don't hide behind the shield of "better education" - we're not buying it!

    Even as prep for the Leaving Cert, the Junior Cert has worth and makes it more than a house exam as far as a stepping stone is concerned. Everything about it as it is currently prepares a student for the Leaving Certificate exam, which most would argue is an important factor.

    Decision makers make mistakes, and they get challenged in democracies. Do you believe Irish Water has been well thought out? The same crowd are in charge.

    Re: selfishness, I'll quite happily admit that as an English teacher, I resent the fact that I'll have to do more work over the school calender for the next few years (without payment) than many of my colleagues who teach different subjects that haven't yet been phased in (and may not be for several years.)


  • Options
    #86
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    chases0102 wrote: »
    Folks,

    What are the options for non-unionised teachers here? Cross the picket and undermine your colleagues?

    It would take a pretty morally vacant person to walk past their striking colleagues and walk into work. Id imagine a lot of your colleagues would not talk to your for quite a while if you did


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    #87
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    eyescreamcone wrote: »
    Of course the junior cert is a stepping stone. As is 1st year and 2nd year.
    3rd year summer exams do not have to be state exams. You can get just as much out of it as an in house examination in my opinion.

    Also, teachers, while their opinion's are valid, are not the decision makers here.
    The decision makers are the elected politicians - elected by those who pay for the system.

    I feel that the teachers are against the proposal - not for educational purposes, but for selfish reasons. (better conditions etc)
    Fair enough if that is the case, but come out and say it.
    Don't hide behind the shield of "better education" - we're not buying it!

    There are plenty of students out there who do not take in house exams seriously, but when it comes to the real thing in third year, they knuckle down and get the work done. Can't see this in house version being the same sort of carrot.

    Teachers are stakeholders in the education system. So far the Minister for Education has not paid any heed to their opinions on the new proposals.

    This is a system that has been in the UK for about 20 years or so. Guess what, it hasn't worked and they are reverting to terminal exams, just when our government have planned to abandon ours.

    So basically to sum up teachers are saying that they are against it for educational reasons but you choose not to believe that, just because?

    We have come out and made our position clear. If you have children or ever have children why would you want them to have a cheaper, value brand education?

    To give you an example, the new draft science syllabus was published around 6 weeks ago. I'm a science teacher. I notice there is no mention of sound and light in the physics section, no urinary system, senses, chemistry is called materials studies - why do you think that is?


    Also some of the projects they have proposed include 'do a career investigation into a science career you might find interesting'. Create a powerpoint project on an element of the periodic table of your choice'


    Most telling is the fact that the current science syllabus has a recommendation of 240-270 contact hours over 3 years. The new course recommendation is 200 contact hours. So less science over three years.


    This is from a government who keep telling us that students should be aiming for STEM subjects and careers. Why cut the recommended time then, and some of the basic tenets of the course as it currently stands? Why do students need to know they have a stomach, but not kidneys?


  • Options
    #88
    doc11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭doc11


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    It would take a pretty morally vacant person to walk past their striking colleagues and walk into work. Id imagine a lot of your colleagues would not talk to your for quite a while if you did

    Morals won't put food on table, very easy for older colleagues on top of their pay scales and allowances to take a hit compared to younger part time teachers. What about those who stay in bed or go on a shopping trip on the strike day are they morally corrupt too.


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    #89
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    doc11 wrote: »
    Morals won't put food on table, very easy for older colleagues on top of their pay scales and allowances to take a hit compared to younger part time teachers. What about those who stay in bed or go on a shopping trip on the strike day are they morally corrupt too.
    What are you on about, doc11??

    Whose career will be more affected - the younger part time teachers or their older colleagues?

    As for the relevance of your last point.....


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    #90
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    doc11 wrote: »
    Morals won't put food on table, very easy for older colleagues on top of their pay scales and allowances to take a hit compared to younger part time teachers. What about those who stay in bed or go on a shopping trip on the strike day are they morally corrupt too.

    Maybe, maybe not. Older teacher might earn more but are also more likely to have children which means more costs and mortgages.

    Maybe you're not aware but teachers have to put a strike rota together for the day of the strike. I was the union rep the last time we went on strike in the 09/10 school year and I had to do it.

    RTE had a disgraceful bulletin on the Six-One news that night. There was a major traffic jam outside Newry and they basically said that it was all the teachers that were supposed to be on strike that were off doing their shopping up the north. It was like a throwaway comment in After Hours. They very conveniently omitted to mention the car crash that caused the backlog on the day. All of the teachers turned up for strike at my school that day.


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    #91
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    doc11 wrote: »
    Morals won't put food on table, very easy for older colleagues on top of their pay scales and allowances to take a hit compared to younger part time teachers. What about those who stay in bed or go on a shopping trip on the strike day are they morally corrupt too.

    I am a young part time teacher. This is about showing solidarity with your colleagues and not being a scab.


This discussion has been closed.
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