SSssooooo annoyed!

Top Dog · 27-12-2009 1:03am

star-pants wrote: »

You said you weren't paying attention and suddenly Gunnar was being attacked, so you don't actually know what happened in that split second. He could have come up and sniffed her dog and her dog didn't like it or anything. Had she seen a child coming toward her dog she might have warned it off - who says she didn't tell your dog to get away?

By scared I mean a dog bounding up to say hello (no matter how friendly) if a dog is of nervous disposition it might frighten it into reacting.

I know exactly what happened.

Gunnar, along with Ben (another Samoyed), Joey (a Golden) and Banjo (a Papillon) were wandering along in front of their owners. No bounding, just wandering and sniffing.

Along come another 2 dogs, and as with each of the 8 dogs we'd previously met, our lot wander over (not bound, not threatening, not aggressive) to say hello & have a sniff. With no warning growl or anything, the smaller on-lead dog launches at Gunnar, embedding its canines in his forehead. The owner stands there, loose lead, doing nothing. Between 4 of us we manage to separate the dog from Gunnar's head, when next thing we know its got its canine buried in Ben's forehead now. It took 5 of us to get him off Ben. I had his back legs, one of the others got his front, Jen tried hitting him, while the other 2 tried to pull Ben free of the dogs grip.

All this time the owner just stood there observing, with (as I stated) a loose lead. The least she could have done was pull her dog back after the first attack to try prevent the second one. Now I don't mind if someone is scared, thats a reasonable response to such an incident, but I'd like to hope that the gut response from the vast majority of dog-owners would be to at least pull on their own dogs lead to try to get it to let go and prevent it from getting stuck into a second dog.

To compound this she had the audacity to hurl abuse at all of us afterwards, the sort of thing that if I were to type it I can guarantee that the forum software would most likely asterix every second word.

Most reasonably balanced dogs will give a warning growl if they're uncomfortable with something, and most reasonable owners will know their dogs well enough to know when a situation could flare up. Yes, our dogs were off lead, and Jen has accepted part-responsibility for what happened. But the person handling the other dogs showed zero remorse for the incident, accepting zero blame. That simply isn't on.

I'm just glad that the dog didn't launch at Banjo (the Papillon) or Murphy (the Lab pup) as the damage could have been a lot more severe. :eek:

Calhoun wrote: »

What exactly are you looking from your post? some validation that you are in the right? you have admitted some fault and the owner of the other dog seems to be at fault.

She was looking to vent - something we all do after a stressful incident. I hope if the same ever happens you that you don't meet with the same response that Jen has on this thread. :rolleyes:

Calhoun wrote: »

All i am saying is that the story is very one sided and when the OP was called on the leash issue there was a small outburst.

Am I invisible here? There's a witness to the incident posting on the thread too in case you missed it.

Calhoun wrote: »

Dogs will be dogs but i would also be equally be annoyed if the owner of an unleashed dog put me in a situation where i had to pull my dog off another dog and then expected me to pay because they couldn't keep their dog under control.

At least you're willing to acknowledge that you might need to pull your dog off another one in such a situation - something this other owner never tried. :mad:

Whispered · 27-12-2009 1:15am

jen_23 wrote: »

, another Samoyed Ben, a golden retriever Joey, a Papillon Banjo and a labrador puppy Murphy......Anyway before I knew it Gunnar was being bitten by this MONGREL of a thing! ..... I even kicked the little runt .....What that little runt did QUOTE]

jen_23 wrote: »

How typical of boards...... lets turn it into an argument of pure breed vs not :rolleyes:
.

yes Jen how very typical. You list your dogs and breeds then proceed to call her dog mongeral, runt etc. Very typical indeed.

Top Dog wrote: »

As for the bit about being a pure breed - who on earth suggested the incident happened because the attacking dog wasn't a pure-breed? Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't. ..... Either way doesn't matter to be honest so bringing it up is a bit pointless.

Jen suggested it, or at least made a point to let us know her dogs were attacked by a "runt" and a "mongeral". She brought breed up and I think it was very insulting to anybody with a mongeral.

jen_23 wrote: »

And so would you stand and allow your dog to bite another one. Doing nothing for a good 5 minutes? Well would you? Would you allow a childs hand to be bit off too??? For gods sake the majority of people with half a brain would pull their dog off.

some people would be too afraid to put their hand down to a dog they don't know. Some people "with half a brain" (your words not mine) would have their dog properly supervised. If a child was to come up to my dog without a parent there, I'd think the child neglected and wonder what the parents where doing allowing their child approach strange dogs.

Top Dog wrote: »

If he's dog aggressive, which todays incident would definitely suggest, then he should be muzzled. Simple as that. You do not take a dog-aggressive dog to an area that is known to be popular with dog owners, most of whom give their dogs a good run there. There were a good number of other dogs off-lead, many out jogging with their owners, and not a single one had an issue with any of our 5. We've been there a good number of times at this stage, come across loads of other dogs (majority off-lead), never had an issue up to today.
.

If he's dog agressive, he should be walked on a lead....oh wait now, he was. And an unsupervised dog ran/walked up to him. Are you really suggesting that the lady was wrong to be walking her dog on a lead in a public place? I know of a few dogs who are not usually dog agressive, but if they are leashed they react out of a feeling of being trapped. One of these is a boxer we walk with nearly every day. The dogs play together brilliantly, but as soon as she is leashed, she lashes out. She shouldn't be muzzled. She just needs people around her to be responsible for their own dogs.

tudlytops wrote: »

But I have one at the moment I have one that i wouldn't trust so i always keep that one on the lead, people know what kind of dog they have and should act accordingly

Do you muzzle it? That is what people appear to be suggesting. If you have a dog who can be dog agressive, or nervous agressive, you should muzzle him at all times in case someone decides to let their dog run around not properly supervised.:rolleyes:

tudlytops wrote: »

Yes but for a lot of dogs this is there only chance to get to run around, not everyone is able to run along with their dogs, so they go to places known to be used by people to walk their dogs and let the dogs have a good run..

Thats fine. So long as you supervise your dog.

My dog gets time off lead every walk, but if we see a dog on a lead near us, we will call him back. It's just not fair on another dog to be approached when they have nowhere to go. If the are nervous, they react with fight or flight. Take away the flight and they have no option. So a nervous dog, being approached by a dog they don't know will often react in that way.

I can understand Jen being annoyed that the owner didn't pull her dog off, but it could have been fear on the owners part. Fault was there with the OP in the first place. Your dog was off lead, not properly supervised and he got bitten. How come none of the other 20 dogs there who were off lead didn't get bitten?

star-pants · 27-12-2009 1:17am

Top_Dog -- I appreciate the full recount, to be fair someone giving a rough overview of what happened can make some people wonder.

The fact the owner did nothing whatsoever is yes very odd, but as I said my mother freezes right up when our dogs fight, she can't move a muscle (probably because she was bitten twice in her life by dogs, both times to save a child, one of them me). It's not an unreasonable reaction from someone, to freeze up. This could be one of many reasons the owner didn't even pull the lead (because you'd automatically do that).

Yes the owner of the other dog was partly in the wrong if her dog is aggressive - she should have warned oncoming dogs or maybe had the dog muzzled.
Yes Jen_23 has accepted that she should have had her dog on a lead/very close to her.
But I think what some people are saying is that if you have your dog on a lead you're better able to prevent things happening to them, you can't control other dogs/people. And in the opening post to come in going 'my dog was off lead another on lead dog bit it the woman did nothing, both the woman and the dog are stupid' is going to react with some people - even though I can understand the need to vent and understand that's not what Jen_23 was coming in saying.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a lot of off lead dogs wandering along if I had my dogs on lead, because I know I can hold back my dogs, etc, but I've no control over someone elses dog. If I was on my own, I'd be grand.

As I said I'm not looking to argue - I'm just giving my opinion

Calhoun · 27-12-2009 1:18am

jen_23 wrote: »

Actually there were probably about atleast 20 dogs off lead. Only 5 were belonging to our group.;)

Gunnar was after running ahead of us and had been attacked. I and my bf had to run up to him when we heard him yelping as the other dog was then biting him.

And I have several times in this thread claimed part fault. Do I have to claim it another 10 times before you are satisfied?

My issue is not that my dog was bitten but that the owner did nothing to pull her dog off! I would never stand and allow my dog to attack someone (not that he ever has and is unlikely to.... he might lick you to death possibly..... ) or another dog and not attempt to stop him. That is my issue.
How can people not at the very least try and stop their dog from mauling another!

Ok, that is fine but the tone and some of your responses don't get that across, when i saw what you posted i though of another typical situation on boards, where a poster comes on looking for support even though they are partly at fault.

My Issue is that other dog owners should not be put in a position where they have to drag their dog off another. You don't know the situation of the other person and from reading your post you didn't stick around to find out.

As for your issue i do agree with you, if the owner knowingly didnt pull their dog off then fair enough but their could be a number of reasons for why she didn't as pointed out by starpants.

Anyways we are going around in circles you have learned something valuable today and thank god there are no long last effects so learn from this and move on.

MissC · 27-12-2009 1:21am

star-pants wrote: »

And in the opening post to come in going 'my dog was off lead another on lead dog bit it the woman did nothing, both the woman and the dog are stupid' is going to react with some people - even though I can understand the need to vent and understand that's not what Jen_23 was coming in saying.

The use of 'MONGREL of a thing' doesn't really endear people either.

Calhoun · 27-12-2009 1:24am

Top Dog wrote: »

She was looking to vent - something we all do after a stressful incident. I hope if the same ever happens you that you don't meet with the same response that Jen has on this thread. :rolleyes:

Am I invisible here? There's a witness to the incident posting on the thread too in case you missed it.

At least you're willing to acknowledge that you might need to pull your dog off another one in such a situation - something this other owner never tried. :mad:

I understand all to well that she is venting and it can clearly be seen in her post how annoyed she is and i can relate to that but if feedback wasn't wanted there is a ranting and raving forum where people are now allowed to disagree.

You are not invisible but to be honest could you say your opinion isn't un-biased?

Of course i would pull my dog off another one as to be honest i would have concerns for my own dogs health as much as the other dog.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 1:27am

MissC wrote: »

The use of 'MONGREL of a thing' doesn't really endear people either.

Have your dog and another dog you care about that are the two most placid things you will ever come across bitten .. hurt ... and potentially even worse (we were very lucky - an eye could have been lost today)... and then come back here and tell me i'm wrong for wanting to call a vicous dog names

If it happens to you. If you can stay calm. Come back and tell me off.

MissC · 27-12-2009 1:28am

I thought your problem was with the stupid owner and not the pedigree of the dog?

Edited to add, I can understand you are annoyed, I've had similar things happen to me and its very frightening and annoying but its your choice of language I find ignorant and derogatory.

Whispered · 27-12-2009 1:36am

jen_23 wrote: »

If it happens to you. If you can stay calm. Come back and tell me off.

my dog is a large fella. We visited my mother over christmas. She has a small dog. During the course of the evening, My mothers dog jumped on his face, Harley bit back. He's a staff cross and people would have you believe it's impossible to seperate them, so I got such a fright. I immediately stuck my knee between them, I could think of nothing else to do. I then grabbed Harleys collar and walked towards him, while the other dog continued to bite. It was over in seconds but far from being annoyed with the dog who attacked, I'm embarassed that I wasn't paying closer attention, I'm guilty for turning to Harley and pulling him away while the other dog continued to snap, I'm frustrated that I allowed my mothers dog be put into a situation where he felt the need to react that way and I'm wondering how to prevent it again.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 1:42am

helena.ryan wrote: »

yes Jen how very typical. You list your dogs and breeds then proceed to call her dog mongeral, runt etc. Very typical indeed.

And people use whatever words they want to when they are angry but hey! Read it and automatically think 'oh she's using a derogitary word to describe a mix breed'. I actually have no idea other than terrier type of what the dog was. I wasn't exactly looking trying to figure it out. I will use whatever word I want to describe a vicous dog attacking mine!

helena.ryan wrote: »

some people would be too afraid to put their hand down to a dog they don't know. Some people "with half a brain" (your words not mine) would have their dog properly supervised. If a child was to come up to my dog without a parent there, I'd think the child neglected and wonder what the parents where doing allowing their child approach strange dogs.

Well you know what there are a lot of half wit people having children in this country considering the amount of 'unsupervised' children that come over rubbing Gunnar while there parents are pre-occupied! I having half a brain have to tell these children to ask to rub him. Not because he is vicious but because potentially the next dog might be.

helena.ryan wrote: »

If he's dog agressive, he should be walked on a lead....oh wait now, he was. And an unsupervised dog ran/walked up to him. Are you really suggesting that the lady was wrong to be walking her dog on a lead in a public place?

She was in the wrong for standing idly by while her dog viciously attacked 2 dogs! He might have been a lead but there certainly was not any control over him.

helena.ryan wrote: »

I can understand Jen being annoyed that the owner didn't pull her dog off, but it could have been fear on the owners part. Fault was there with the OP in the first place. Your dog was off lead, not properly supervised and he got bitten. How come none of the other 20 dogs there who were off lead didn't get bitten?

Fear or no fear you atleast tighten the leash and at the very least say NO! How many people would stand there and do absolutely nothing?

Would you stand there and do nothing?

As for the other 20 dogs I unfortunatly never conducted a survey.... so maybe some were... perhaps not.... How would I know?

Top Dog · 27-12-2009 1:48am

helena.ryan wrote: »

yes Jen how very typical. You list your dogs and breeds then proceed to call her dog mongeral, runt etc. Very typical indeed.

Jen suggested it, or at least made a point to let us know her dogs were attacked by a "runt" and a "mongeral". She brought breed up and I think it was very insulting to anybody with a mongeral.

So you would NEVER call a bloke that upset you a bastard or a woman who upset you a bitch? Regardless of whether or not its 100% accurate?

Try climbing down off your high horse for a min and realise that the girl was upset. She'd witnessed her dog being attacked, another dog being attacked, and afterwards see's there's a chunk missing from her dog's forehead. Surely its understandable that she's going to vent and the accuracy of that venting really shouldn't be scrutinised?

She (obviously mistakenly now) thought she might get a little bit of sympathy here - I guess we both know better now.

helena.ryan wrote:

If he's dog agressive, he should be walked on a lead....oh wait now, he was. And an unsupervised dog ran/walked up to him. Are you really suggesting that the lady was wrong to be walking her dog on a lead in a public place?

I'm not even going to go near your calling this other person a lady ...

But yes, I am suggesting that the person was wrong for walking her (obviously) dog-aggressive dog in a public place thats extremely well known to be a popular dog-walking spot. A place you can be 100% guaranteed to come across other dogs off-lead. If she wanted to walk there she should have had her dog muzzled. Unless she's a total blow-in to Cork city (in which case I doubt she'd have known about this location) then I fail to see how she has any reasonable excuse for not having her dog muzzled there.

If Gunnar & Ben were on a loose lead they could still have been attacked.

tudlytops wrote: »

How come none of the other 20 dogs there who were off lead didn't get bitten?

Maybe they did after we passed - we didn't follow the woman and her dogs so there's no way of knowing if there was a third attack to follow the first two.

star-pants wrote: »

Top_Dog -- I appreciate the full recount, to be fair someone giving a rough overview of what happened can make some people wonder.

Fair point.

star-pants wrote:

The fact the owner did nothing whatsoever is yes very odd, but as I said my mother freezes right up when our dogs fight, she can't move a muscle (probably because she was bitten twice in her life by dogs, both times to save a child, one of them me). It's not an unreasonable reaction from someone, to freeze up. This could be one of many reasons the owner didn't even pull the lead (because you'd automatically do that).

I'm sorry to hear about your mother being bitten, its never a nice thing.

Can I ask though, would she (knowing she has this inbuilt fear) knowingly take her dog to a popular walking spot where it is common knowledge that a great number of dogs will be off-lead and will also most likely have a sniff of her dog?

star-pants wrote:

But I think what some people are saying is that if you have your dog on a lead you're better able to prevent things happening to them, you can't control other dogs/people.

I don't disagree that you have better ability to control your dog on a lead. But I think the point that Jen is trying to make, and it would seem has been missed by a number of people, is that even if all our dogs were on lead this could still have happened. The real point to all this was the lack of reaction from the owner, and the verbal abuse she hurled at us afterwards.

star-pants wrote:

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a lot of off lead dogs wandering along if I had my dogs on lead, because I know I can hold back my dogs, etc, but I've no control over someone elses dog. If I was on my own, I'd be grand.

Again same sort of question as asked about your mother - if you wouldn't be comfortable with a lot of off-lead dogs, would you knowingly bring your dogs to a popular location where the majority (and I'm not exaggerating by saying majority) of other dogs are off-lead?

star-pants wrote:

As I said I'm not looking to argue - I'm just giving my opinion

I'm not looking to argue either - just trying to clarify some details and defend a friend who I feel has been unnecessarily criticised by some

MissC wrote: »

The use of 'MONGREL of a thing' doesn't really endear people either.

If a dog attacked my dog I'm sure I'd call it a mutt, mongrel, little shite etc. In the heat of the moment, when emotions are running high, the accuracy of such words has absolutly no relevance.

Calhoun wrote:

You are not invisible but to be honest could you say your opinion isn't un-biased?

Biased? Probably. However its also very accurate.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 1:50am

helena.ryan wrote: »

my dog is a large fella. We visited my mother over christmas. She has a small dog. During the course of the evening, My mothers dog jumped on his face, Harley bit back. He's a staff cross and people would have you believe it's impossible to seperate them, so I got such a fright. I immediately stuck my knee between them, I could think of nothing else to do. I then grabbed Harleys collar and walked towards him, while the other dog continued to bite. It was over in seconds but far from being annoyed with the dog who attacked, I'm embarassed that I wasn't paying closer attention, I'm guilty for turning to Harley and pulling him away while the other dog continued to snap, I'm frustrated that I allowed my mothers dog be put into a situation where he felt the need to react that way and I'm wondering how to prevent it again.

That is very different.
1. You knew the dog
2. there wasn't an owner standing there doing nothing to pull her dog off... 2 dogs!
3. Your dog bit back. Mine yelped looking for the pain to stop!

tudlytops · 27-12-2009 1:50am

helena.ryan wrote: »

my dog is a large fella. We visited my mother over christmas. She has a small dog. During the course of the evening, My mothers dog jumped on his face, Harley bit back. He's a staff cross and people would have you believe it's impossible to seperate them, so I got such a fright. I immediately stuck my knee between them, I could think of nothing else to do. I then grabbed Harleys collar and walked towards him, while the other dog continued to bite. It was over in seconds but far from being annoyed with the dog who attacked, I'm embarassed that I wasn't paying closer attention, I'm guilty for turning to Harley and pulling him away while the other dog continued to snap, I'm frustrated that I allowed my mothers dog be put into a situation where he felt the need to react that way and I'm wondering how to prevent it again.

If i have someone coming over with a pet, I know that 1 of my dogs is nervous so i will either muzzle him or keep him in another room.

tudlytops · 27-12-2009 1:52am

MissC wrote: »

I thought your problem was with the stupid owner and not the pedigree of the dog?

Edited to add, I can understand you are annoyed, I've had similar things happen to me and its very frightening and annoying but its your choice of language I find ignorant and derogatory.

Common she was annoyed that is all. Why does everything have to end up presonal

boomerang · 27-12-2009 1:52am

It sounds to me as if the lady didn't know how to react when Gunnar and her dog got in a scrap. I've seen that happen a lot with people when dogs fight - they're in such a state of shock, they're rooted to the ground and someone else has to step in and separate the dogs.

I'd imagine she was shouting at ye afterwards because she got such an awful fright.

Your dog may be friendly but that doesn't make it a good thing that he bounds up on top of other dogs, even if he does it in a good-natured way. My own dog can't cope with that at all. A lot of dogs find that kind of head-on exuberance intimidating and will react aggressively through fear.I've been in situations where someone's off lead dog has ran straight up to mine, sparking off a row while the owner looks on, dumbstruck. Remember too that a lot of dogs feel insecure while on a lead around free-running dogs.

I honestly can't see how the lady can be blamed in all of this. She wasn't doing anything wrong. It's very mean of you to describe the other dog as a mongrel and a runt.

Unfortunately I'd just say you're one of the people with a good-natured, friendly dog who takes it for granted that other dogs are just as tolerant. Just chalk it down to experience.

Magenta · 27-12-2009 2:02am

jen_23 wrote: »

I kicked her dog when he was attacking the second dog and wouldn't let go. We thought he had his eye! So yes! I bloody well kicked him.

What was I supposed to do? Let him rip his face off or wait for the owner to come to her senses at somepoint when perhaps he had been mauled half to death to drag her dog off? I don't bloody think so!

First of all, you should have had your dog on a lead.
That woman is walking her small dog and she has 5 unleashed dogs running around. Of course she was intimidated.

Second, your dog's injuries are not that bad. He looks a little like Shane Lynch circa 1997, which I doubt would help in your little pedigree show.

Third, you've admitted "bloody well kicking" the other woman's dog.
Now, we know the dog is only a "runt" and a "MONGREL", but if it turns out that dog has internal injuries from the kicking you gave it, are you going to foot the vet's bill?

doctor evil · 27-12-2009 2:49am

Keep your dog on a lead (also sounds you and him could do with some training so he will stay at heel)

If two dogs are fighting/scrapping/whatever you do not put your hand in to pull them apart, that is one sure way to end with a nasty injury.

What is the by law of this local area regarding leads?

Jemmy · 27-12-2009 2:54am

tudlytops wrote: »

She was just saying she's annoyed, not necessary that her dog got bitten, but that the owner of the other dog done nothing to try and stop it.

I know dogs will be dogs and really all dogs are unpredictable, but I would also be very annoyed if the owner didn't try and help and own up to vet costs if there were any.

You have no idea what was going through that womans head, my mother got bitten when she was a teenager very close to her eye and nearly lost it because she tried to stop 2 dogs fighting. Maybe the woman was in shock or whatever you don't know, these kinda things happen so fast.

IMO you were both in the wrong, it could have been worse, so just be thankful it wasn't. Maybe next time keep him on a lead and away from the dangers of others and the unknown around you, just like you would a child. (seen as you keep comparing it!)

Orla K · 27-12-2009 3:18am

I have to say something similar happened to me but the other way around.

I was walking two small dogs who are good and come back to me when I call them but the smaller one is scared of everything, (she gets so frightened if a child runs up to her she wees:o) I was walking into an area that normally has some dog walkers so I kept them both on the lead and was checking if there were any loose dogs in the area (both of mine* tend to avoid running up to other dogs) if there weren't dogs about both of them would have gone off the lead, one ignores other dogs and the little one avoids them. Before I could do anything two average/large sized dogs come running around the corner and up to them to play. My dogs got the fright of there lives the little one ran behind me and promptly píssed herself the other one tried running the other way. I don't remember my dogs growling I do remember them yelping, barking and howling. I couldn't do a damn thing because if I tried to separate them the other two dogs would just switch around and I'd be at square one again but, the thing was while the bigger dogs were trying to play my ones were terrified and started snapping at the bigger dogs to get them to go away. The worst thing for what felt like ages the owner of the other dogs seemed to be nowhere in sight and all I could do was stand there and try to get untangled from the leads (my two were trying to run away from the other dogs, while snapping, barking, howling and yelping)

By the time the owner did call the other two dogs off (which she should have done at least as soon as she heard my dogs making noise) my ones were shaking with the fright and only because she had called the dogs from a distance and walked away as soon as she did she would have got an earful off of me. I didn't want to put the my two under the stress of being near her two dogs so I left it but, if one of mine had of injured her dogs and she wanted me/the owners to pay, I would have told her it was entirly her fault she should have been looking after/watching her dogs and she was the one that put my dogs in danger, in not so nice a way as that (and I know the owners would probably say worse)

At the time I had to kneel down (on wet grass) both to calm the dogs and check if they had injories, which thankfully they didn't. Thinking about it that's actually the last time I walked them, I was frightened for ages after that, that it might have turned them a bit wicked to other dogs, it just made both afraid of bigger dogs (and I had Sam-not the little one- so well socialised, she didn't care about other dogs, the little one was got at a slightly later stage in life and never got a chance to get used to other dogs)

I do think you should take more responibility than 'Part' or 'some' you weren't paying attention, you let your dog run up to another unknown dog, you didn't/couldn't call him away. (Just thinking I don't mean to sound like I'm giving out to you over it, and you should be upset, I would be too but I don't think you should be blaming her for doing nothing) I think you should just own up and say, yes there are lots of things I could have done to prevent this happening (the woman could have done something too but I think the responibility really fell on you because it was your dog which was off lead) learn from the mistakes, vow it will never happen again and lastly (also what might be the reason your only taking 'some' responsibility) take in the guilt, tell your dog your sorry, give it lots of treats and cuddles and let go of the guilt.

*I say mine but there not really mine I just walk them and look after them when the owners are away

Whispered · 27-12-2009 10:35am

jen_23 wrote: »

I will use whatever word I want to describe a vicous dog attacking mine!

yes and using a term commonly used to describe my dog and many many others as an insult is going to get people annoyed, and they are going to react to that. This is getting childish now. "I'll do what I want" :rolleyes:

jen_23 wrote: »

Well you know what there are a lot of half wit people having children in this country considering the amount of 'unsupervised' children that come over rubbing Gunnar while there parents are pre-occupied! I having half a brain have to tell these children to ask to rub him. Not because he is vicious but because potentially the next dog might be.

What has this to do with anything? You asked me what I would do if my dog bit a child. I answered you by saying that if a child was allowed approach my dog unsupervised I would think their parents, as you said, half-wits.

jen_23 wrote: »

She was in the wrong for standing idly by while her dog viciously attacked 2 dogs! He might have been a lead but there certainly was not any control over him.

She was in the wrong, but I'm pointing out that ultimately you where the person who had an offlead dog.

jen_23 wrote: »

Fear or no fear you atleast tighten the leash and at the very least say NO! How many people would stand there and do absolutely nothing?

Well Starpants mother for 1. I'm sure there are many people who might. A friend of mine loves her smaller dog, but is absolutely terrieifed of larger dogs, or dogs she doesn't know. To the point of it being annoying if we are out anywhere. I'd imagine she would freeze up also.

jen_23 wrote: »

As for the other 20 dogs I unfortunatly never conducted a survey.... so maybe some were... perhaps not.... How would I know?

No need for the sarcasm, you brought up the fact that there were 20 other dogs. I'm just wondering what your dog did that others didn't to get bitten.

Top Dog wrote: »

So you would NEVER call a bloke that upset you a bastard or a woman who upset you a bitch? Regardless of whether or not its 100% accurate?

well there is a difference, she called the dog a mongrel. Not a bitch etc. She used a description of a mixed breed dog to insult it. If you want to start humanising it, you could compare it to a racial slur. (I'm not suggesting it, but I think it would be a more accurate humanisation than other swears)

Top Dog wrote: »

Try climbing down off your high horse for a min and realise that the girl was upset. She'd witnessed her dog being attacked, another dog being attacked, and afterwards see's there's a chunk missing from her dog's forehead. Surely its understandable that she's going to vent and the accuracy of that venting really shouldn't be scrutinised?

I can see she's upset, but the first post was ridiculously biased. This silly woman and her runt of a dog attacked my offlead dog after he approached. It looks like a nasty cut but a chunk of his head? Really? If it was a chunk of his head Jen would have had to bring him to the vet.

Top Dog wrote: »

But yes, I am suggesting that the person was wrong for walking her (obviously) dog-aggressive dog in a public place thats extremely well known to be a popular dog-walking spot. A place you can be 100% guaranteed to come across other dogs off-lead. If she wanted to walk there she should have had her dog muzzled. Unless she's a total blow-in to Cork city (in which case I doubt she'd have known about this location) then I fail to see how she has any reasonable excuse for not having her dog muzzled there.

If Gunnar & Ben were on a loose lead they could still have been attacked.

Again, many non agressive dogs will react that way if a strange, larger dog approaches and they have no way of getting away should they need to. It does sound like a particurlary nasty attack, but the other dog is not necessarily dog agressive. And as already pointed out, there where other offlead dogs around. What where other owners doing to avoid their dog being attacked?

Top Dog wrote: »

I don't disagree that you have better ability to control your dog on a lead. But I think the point that Jen is trying to make, and it would seem has been missed by a number of people, is that even if all our dogs were on lead this could still have happened. The real point to all this was the lack of reaction from the owner, and the verbal abuse she hurled at us afterwards.

Obviously that is wrong. But as Jen said, people say things in anger that come out ignorant and sounding very badly. The woman was likely to be furious to have been put into a position where her dog attacked despite her doing the responsible thing and having her dog on a lead. She was probably annoyed that some strangers, who allowed their dogs approach then kicked, hit and grabbed the dog by the legs to get him off. (a normal reaction btw, but still not nice for the other owner to see)

jen_23 wrote: »

That is very different.
1. You knew the dog
2. there wasn't an owner standing there doing nothing to pull her dog off... 2 dogs!
3. Your dog bit back. Mine yelped looking for the pain to stop!
4. You didn't blame everyone around you for your mistake

tudlytops wrote: »

If i have someone coming over with a pet, I know that 1 of my dogs is nervous so i will either muzzle him or keep him in another room.

it was sillyness on both our parts. The two have known each other since harley was 8 weeks old, but he's getting older now and I suppose my mams dog got sick of a big silly male dog running around his house and my dog got sick of being growled at every time he moved. It just came to a head. I think I will have to keep one crated in future. It's a pity really

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 11:54am

Magenta wrote: »

First of all, you should have had your dog on a lead.
That woman is walking her small dog and she has 5 unleashed dogs running around. Of course she was intimidated.

Second, your dog's injuries are not that bad. He looks a little like Shane Lynch circa 1997, which I doubt would help in your little pedigree show.

Third, you've admitted "bloody well kicking" the other woman's dog.
Now, we know the dog is only a "runt" and a "MONGREL", but if it turns out that dog has internal injuries from the kicking you gave it, are you going to foot the vet's bill?

Can I ask what would you have done?
Your dog is being mauled... the owner is not reacting to remove her dog.

Would you stand there and allow your dog to lose an eye would you?

You would not! I tried pulling Ben back along with other people (none of which were the owner). Someone else tried lifting the dog and he wouldn't let go.

So seriously.. If kicking him was going to save another dogs eye.. then yes I would do it again.

What would you do because I am so interested to hear........

by the way as has been stated before there were alot more than 5 off leash dogs running around. Alot more. 5 were belonging to our group. 3 of which hadn't gone near what was happening.

Hellrazer · 27-12-2009 12:19pm

Jen,
Honestly in my opinion you were to blame if your dog was off a lead regardless of how many other dogs were unleashed in that place at that time.Your dog is your responsibility not anyone elses dog.

The fact that the woman did nothing tells me she was terrified which is a natural reaction when you see dogs fighting.

I had a similar situation with our Lab.Our dog was on its lead,a strange dog comes over for a sniff and our lab went a bit mad because it was an unknown dog.I wasnt going to try and stick my hand into that situation and honestly if the owner of the other dog had kicked my dog I can tell you now I would have done more than kicked him.

You should be thankful that the other dogs owner hasnt taken things further after you kicking their dog and that your dog got away lightly.

convert · 27-12-2009 12:21pm

Your dogs were off the lead, and, as you already mentioned, you weren't paying full attention to them all the time. Therefore they weren't under you full control.

You don't know what happened in the few second between your dogs running up to the lady's 'mongeral' and hearing them start fighting. You only saw the 'aftermath' rather than what happened immediately before, so you can't say for certain that your dogs didn't do anything to merit such a reaction by the other dog.

The worst thing that one can do is to get between two fighting dogs. I've known lots of people who have been injured, some of them seriously, because they tried stupidly tried to intervene between fighting dogs. Prehaps the lady in question, as has been suggested above, was injured previously and was so terrified that she literally couldn't move. It's quite common that to happen - it's happened me before in different situations, but I was so afraid that I went into shock and literally couldn't move for a few minutes.

If you were planning to show your dog, then maybe you should have had him on a lead. That way you would have avoided an incident such as that you have outlined above, or any other incident that could be detrimental to you or to your dog.

If in a public area, dogs should be kept on a lead at all times, regardless of whether or not they are calm and friendly. It would prevent so many incidents and arguments.

Magenta · 27-12-2009 12:28pm

Hellrazer wrote: »

Jen,
Honestly in my opinion you were to blame if your dog was off a lead regardless of how many other dogs were unleashed in that place at that time.Your dog is your responsibility not anyone elses dog.

The fact that the woman did nothing tells me she was terrified which is a natural reaction when you see dogs fighting.

I had a similar situation with our Lab.Our dog was on its lead,a strange dog comes over for a sniff and our lab went a bit mad because it was an unknown dog.I wasnt going to try and stick my hand into that situation and honestly if the owner of the other dog had kicked my dog I can tell you now I would have done more than kicked him.

You should be thankful that the other dogs owner hasnt taken things further after you kicking their dog and that your dog got away lightly.

I agree. First she lets her own dog run around doing whatever he likes- by her own admission she wasn't even paying attention to him- then when he runs up to another dog that was probably a fraction of his size, and the other dog reacts, she kicks it?

Jen would you call yourself an animal lover? Or a responsible dog owner?
It sounds to me like you have one rule for yourself and another for the rest of us.

jen_23 · 27-12-2009 1:04pm

Actually convert topdog has given a pretty acurate account of things earlier in the thread. Luckily he remembered more than I had.

Gunnar went for a sniff and her dog lunged for Gunnar and attacked him. And when we got Gunnar off instead of hauling in her dog he managed to lunge for another and almost pull his eye out.

If the owner is not going to do anything - not even yank a lead be she scared or whatever I will kick her dog to save my own.
I would happily pay whatever vet bills for damage I have done to hers. I was not allowing my dog to be KILLED by not reacting.

As I have said before a child could have wandered over and would you have said ah.. sure let the dog maul the child away.... Your not to touch someone elses dog... Even if they are allowing them to maul a child :rolleyes:
My dog is like my child. He is a part of my family so no I would not and will never stand idly by while he is being attacked and crying in pain!
Ye must have very hardened hearts here if ye can just stand and watch...

To be honest I have posted this on 3 forums topdog.ie , a uk samoyed forum and here. This is only place where I have been slated and people turning my personal experience into something personal about themselves because I used the word mongrel to describe a dog which attacked mine...

I would like to know who here can honestly put there hands up and say they have never used a derogatory term to describe another person or animal when they have been livid. Ever. I bet there would be very few who havn't particularly in anger.

I really hope none of yere dogs come upon a similar situation as obviously ye would all stand around and allow them to have an eye pulled out or mauled to death. :rolleyes:

I'm no longer arguing my point here as well I know what I did was the right thing at the time. I have several times taken part responsibility for having him off lead but yet people decide not to read it and continue to tell me Gunnar should have been on a lead.

I have agreed with that. But continue to slate me anyhow.

Gunnar was in that situation along with Ben. The owner did nothing. I wasn't going to sit there and allow a bad situation escalate into a much worse one. I did what I felt was right at the time and I will not justify my actions.

As I said I really hope none of ye ever get into a similar situation and well if you do do not post here.

It must be great to be a boarsdie in this forum. Ye are obviously superior to everyone else and would obviously be calm and rational in a frightening situation......

Yorkiegirl · 27-12-2009 1:49pm

Jen, regardless of what anyone says you just retaliate with viciousness towards them...what exactly do you want people to say ?

that you were right to have five dogs off lead, unsupervised?
that you were right to kick a small dog, who most likely attacked out of pure fear?

it just isn't going to happen..YOU WERE WRONG and I'm glad I've picked up from the threads that your located in Cork, because I would hate to have to risk meeting you and your dogs etc out in public areas.

Put your dogs on leads and let everybody enjoy the public areas.

star-pants · 27-12-2009 1:54pm

Top Dog wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear about your mother being bitten, its never a nice thing.

Can I ask though, would she (knowing she has this inbuilt fear) knowingly take her dog to a popular walking spot where it is common knowledge that a great number of dogs will be off-lead and will also most likely have a sniff of her dog?
Again same sort of question as asked about your mother - if you wouldn't be comfortable with a lot of off-lead dogs, would you knowingly bring your dogs to a popular location where the majority (and I'm not exaggerating by saying majority) of other dogs are off-lead?

Thanks - as I said she's fine with our two (unless they're fighting, even play fighting) and is terrified of most other dogs.

My mother can't walk the dogs due to her health so she'd never be holding the lead (for more than a minute or two if I had her do that whilst I was picking up dog poop). We do bring the dogs down to Bray and walk along the beach - shouldn't have to deprive my dogs of a walk along the beach just because other people are walking their dogs off lead. I have no particular issue with people having their dogs off lead once they're under the owners full control and won't just randomly approach people closer than they'd want.
I've had off lead dogs run up to me and jump up or waggle themselves silly to say hello - I have no fear of dogs so I don't mind - but a lot of people do. These are friendly dogs yes, not looking to attack but to say hello.

If they come up to my dogs - that's a different story, my older dog Lily is very very nervy (from her previous owners) and so if I see any other dog coming towards us, I pull both my dogs into a short tight lead so that I have as much control as I can in that situation. This has happened numerous times out on the beach, random dogs coming over to say hello - I have my dogs in close (because I know they're scared and I don't want them to be stressed by trying to get away from a dog) and I put myself between them and the other dog (if it's overly friendly). My little one will bark and bark (doubt she'd attack, she just likes to show off being tough) and she'll be protecting my older one. IF the owner is there or I see the owner, I'll say 'sorry my dogs are rather nervous, they won't like your dog at them' - and the owners will pull them away or call them whatever.

Most of the off lead dogs on the beach are called away by their owners (successfully) before they reach mine. Which is how it should be IMO. IF you're going to have your dog off lead, have full control and have it not wander up to ever tom dick and harry. Because you just don't know what will happen. So yes I'd walk them in the park or at the beach because I feel that I'm watching every move of my dogs and dogs that come into my 'radar' lets say and can do my best to manage each situation as it comes. Not saying something would never happen, but at least if I have mine under control/on lead/behind me, I can protect them.

jen_23 wrote: »

As I have said before a child could have wandered over and would you have said ah.. sure let the dog maul the child away.... Your not to touch someone elses dog... Even if they are allowing them to maul a child :rolleyes:
My dog is like my child. He is a part of my family so no I would not and will never stand idly by while he is being attacked and crying in pain!
Ye must have very hardened hearts here if ye can just stand and watch...

You keep bringing up a child - now, you say that if you saw a child out or whatever, you'd call Gunnar in or put him on a lead. Why do you not extend the same curtsey to other dogs? What if Gunnar wandered up to a child and knocked it over? What if he went up and the child hit him because it was too young or scared or was a horrible child? Would you be blaming the parents for most of it?

As I've said to Top_Dog above -- I've no issue with dogs off lead - once they're under full control of the owner, you shouldn't just assume that because your dog is friendly and comfortable just going right up to another dog that other dogs are the same. As said, my dogs wouldn't be happy with a bigger dog (especially) coming up to them into their face, whether to say hello or otherwise. I come across dogs off lead even going around my block for a walk with my two, most of the other dogs have zero interest in mine, which is probably why they're off lead, because they're off having their walk, not interested/trained not to go up to other people/other dogs. And that's fine by me, mine are on leads, if they start barking, I have control and can give a quick pull and a 'come on'.
When I am passing children - with or without their parents - I will say that my dogs are nervous and not to try petting them, because who knows how every dog will react to being scared.

Jen_23 wrote:

I would like to know who here can honestly put there hands up and say they have never used a derogatory term to describe another person or animal when they have been livid. Ever. I bet there would be very few who havn't particularly in anger.

I really hope none of yere dogs come upon a similar situation as obviously ye would all stand around and allow them to have an eye pulled out or mauled to death. :rolleyes:

It's *how* you wrote your opening post that rubbed people the wrong way, I've already explained this. You had the time to carefully type out the breeds of all 6 dogs (only two of which were involved with the fight) and carefully post 7 photos of differing angles of the injury, and strikeout the word 'lady' for idiot. So whilst you wrote in anger, you took time with certain points.
TBH mongrel wouldn't come into my head if I was describing a dog that attacked mine - I'd be like 'that f*cker of a dog* or whatever.
Top_dog gave a full and proper account of what happened, had you posted the way he did - I don't think half the people would have had as much of an issue. Yes it's making a mountain out of a molehill over using the word mongrel - BUT - in it's context of your post - it came across rather badly.

Of course I'd get involved if my dogs were being attacked, whilst I know it's a dangerous thing to do. BUT a short story!
My friends dog, who is allowed wander up and down her road, always has - was attacked by an on lead dog before. Myself and my friend (teens at the time) were at one end of the road and saw him a few houses down, we called hi and he came to greet us. HE happened to pass a man walking his little dog, and stopped to say hello, the dog went for him (we weren't right there so we don't realy know, but Indys very passive so we think not) and there was suddenly a brawl.
We ran up, and tried to pull them apart without luck, we were both fairly scared too cuz we both nearly were bitten. The man wasn't trying to pull his dog away, but was kicking my friends dog. My friends dad came out and managed to separate them. The man gave out stink saying we shouldn't have a dog off lead / that attacks dogs /so forth. My friends dad said that he was probably just saying hello but lesson learned BUT that if that man ever kicked his dog again, he'd be back for the man with his stick.

So - these things can happen yes, was it the man with the dog on a leads fault for walking his dog? Or my friends for allowing her dog roam around?
She's been my friend for 12 + years, but I didn't agree with the dog being allowed to roam, because things like this happen. I know he was roaming free, and yours was roaming in front of you but still - neither you nor I (&my friend) had control over the situation.

I've had on lead dogs go for mine, but because when I'm meeting another dog I have mine tight and close to me, I can pull mine back quicker so they don't (hopefully) get bitten. I do let other dogs sniff mine and vice versa, but only in the situation where I've already said hello to the other dog and can see if my dogs and their dog are comfortable with the situation.

Jen_23 wrote:

As I said I really hope none of ye ever get into a similar situation and well if you do do not post here.

It must be great to be a boarsdie in this forum. Ye are obviously superior to everyone else and would obviously be calm and rational in a frightening situation......

People were slating you because of your initial view, your opening post came across that the other lady was in the wrong, even after you admitted part fault you continued to blame the lady for doing nothing.

You've just said right there 'everyone else would obviously be calm and rational in a frightening situation' -- but yet this woman wasn't rational or calm in a frightening situation and you're slating *her* for it. You've not once said 'ok maybe the woman was frightened and that's not her fault'. You still think that if she was frightened it didn't excuse her non actions at the time.

People have sympathy for the dogs yes - I sure do, because I've seen that situation and it's scary and it's a quick reaction that might save the day. The dogs are lucky it wasn't worse and it's horrible that it happened to them. And I know how awful I'd feel if either of my dogs were hurt, I couldn't bear it.
But at the end of the day, you and whomever else are their owners, and you have to look out for them too. I think some people are annoyed you allowed your dog to get into a situation whereby it got hurt.

Magenta · 27-12-2009 2:00pm

jen_23 wrote: »

he only had a little scrape.

Let him rip his face off or wait for the owner to come to her senses at somepoint when perhaps he had been mauled half to death...

Can I ask what would you have done?
Your dog is being mauled...

I was not allowing my dog to be KILLED by not reacting.

I really hope none of yere dogs come upon a similar situation as obviously ye would all stand around and allow them to have an eye pulled out or mauled to death. :rolleyes:

Oh for Christs sake quit the drama. Your dog has, in your own words "a little scrape". If the he was "mauled" as you say he was, where's the puncture wounds from the other dog's teeth? Where are the wounds?

If he really felt threatened he would have fought back, unless he really is stupid enough to allow himself to be "mauled to death" (:rolleyes:) by a terrier that was probably a fraction of his size.

jen_23 wrote: »

To be honest I have posted this on 3 forums topdog.ie , a uk samoyed forum and here. This is only place where I have been slated not been told what I want to hear. I should be able to do whatever I like!

Fixed that for you.

jen_23 wrote: »

Can I ask what would you have done?

What would you do because I am so interested to hear........

I would have called my dog back and tightened the leash to prevent him from bothering dogs he doesn't know. Unfortunately you neglected to pay attention to what your dog was doing and didn't have a lead on him so those options weren't available to you. :rolleyes:

convert · 27-12-2009 3:51pm

jen_23 wrote: »

Actually convert topdog has given a pretty acurate account of things earlier in the thread. Luckily he remembered more than I had.

I am aware of that, and I actually read it:

Top Dog wrote: »

I know exactly what happened.

Gunnar, along with Ben (another Samoyed), Joey (a Golden) and Banjo (a Papillon) were wandering along in front of their owners. No bounding, just wandering and sniffing.

Along come another 2 dogs, and as with each of the 8 dogs we'd previously met, our lot wander over (not bound, not threatening, not aggressive) to say hello & have a sniff.

However, it only states that the dogs wandered over to have a sniff and say hello. If one has ever watched dogs' behaviour, it may be observed that sometimes a sniff can be more than just a 'hello', and may actually be interpreted/intended as being aggressive or invasive.

Perhaps the dog in question felt threatened and decided it was better to take the offensive rather than risk being attacked by your dog and friends' dogs?

bada-bing · 27-12-2009 8:31pm

I must say having read this thread I find Jens attitude completely and utterly shocking. I own a medium (mixed breed) dog who i rescued 2 years ago. Luckily for me he came relatively well trained, he is friendly and excellent with children. He was already very, very street wise with regards to traffic etc when i got him, and it took him very little time to learn to heel at command to cross roads and pedestrian crossings etc. As a result i almost always walk him off the lead. However if i see another dog coming being walked on a lead I will always assume that dog to be vicious and call my dog to heel. It has happened me on a few occasions when me and the little fella were only finding our feet that he has ran off on me, to 'socialise' and a few times he has been attacked. Obviously at those times I have gotten a fright and ran over to try and resuce him. I have apologised to the owners of the dog who attacked, as i felt it was entirely my own fault if my dog is so badly trained that he ignores my commands and enters the space of another dog who is being walked on the lead. Once my dog has been attacked whilst on the lead my a massive dog and i got a terrible terrible fright. It is much more frightening to be in this position, where a bigger dog comes over and you dont know whether to pick uo your dog and risk being bitten or what to do. That woman had every right to be annoyed and moreso was under no obligation to get involved and 'rescue' your dog. She probably said good enough for him, it will teach him a lesson which is exactly what i have told my little doggy when he has come back to me with his tail inbetween his legs after getting a fright - i told him so! (and before you say it yes I know he cant understand me.. but he does seem to have understood the message). If i were her and you KICKED my small dog who I had under full control then i would have been extremely annoyed. I hope this has thought you to keep your five dogs under control in any area where other dog walkers are also present as this is only fair.

SSssooooo annoyed!

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