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The future of Free Travel Passes being flagged again

  • 03-03-2012 5:04pm
    #1
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭


    This latest article is the second in the past month to specifically mention the DSP Free Travel Scheme.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pensions-free-travel-and-medical-cards-on-imf-hitlist-3038459.html

    It's now only a matter of when the Free Travel Scheme is addressed rather than If.

    I'd speculate that the revision will accompany the new chipped DSP card and will most likely see the removal of automatic spousal entitlement and the ending of automatic Free-Travel entitlement to Disability Allowance recipients.

    However it appears that the DSP will firstly embark upon a verification "census" of current Free-Pass holders,a task which will almost certainly throw up some interesting statistics.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Pensioners will be back marching on the streets again. :p


  • #3
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    I love free travel. ;):cool:


  • #4
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    The WRC will be down to about an average of just four passengers per trip. :eek:


  • #5
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    This latest article is the second in the past month to specifically mention the DSP Free Travel Scheme.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pensions-free-travel-and-medical-cards-on-imf-hitlist-3038459.html

    It's now only a matter of when the Free Travel Scheme is addressed rather than If.

    I'd speculate that the revision will accompany the new chipped DSP card and will most likely see the removal of automatic spousal entitlement and the ending of automatic Free-Travel entitlement to Disability Allowance recipients.

    However it appears that the DSP will firstly embark upon a verification "census" of current Free-Pass holders,a task which will almost certainly throw up some interesting statistics.
    It is far more likely that the tax rates will be standardised and the medical card entitlement and free schemes such as the household benefits package for pensioners will be restored to being means tested.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pensions-free-travel-and-medical-cards-on-imf-hitlist-3038459.html
    The Washington-based organisation now wants more means testing to target those who need help, rather than the current system, which does not differentiate between needy and wealthy pensioners.

    The Central Statistics Office calculated recently that only 9pc of households where the adults were aged over 55 have had to make cutbacks – such as spending less on groceries, clothing and footwear, health insurance and going out. Meanwhile, almost a third of those between the ages of 35 and 44 have had to make cutbacks.

    The information in the article is also wrong and very misleading as it states pensioners are allowed both an electricity allowance and also a natural gas allowance but only one or the other is paid!
    And despite recent changes that have impacted on pensioners’ money, they still get 1,800 units of free electricity, which saves around €291 a year.

    They also get a natural gas allowance of €48 every two months in the summer and €102 every two months in the winter,


  • #6
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Pensioners will be back marching on the streets again. :p

    let them march wherever they want, they've been riding the gravy train for far too long and have to share the burden.


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  • #7
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    It needs to be cut back without doubt, I have no problem with it funding people for their daily lives, but being able to travel the whole length of the country is not on. Discounted yes. Free No


  • #8
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    the groutch wrote: »
    let them march wherever they want, they've been riding the gravy train for far too long and have to share the burden.

    Get a life would you. OAPs paid their taxes and are entitled to their free travel/medical cards etc. It's hardly their fault that our rotten politicians have sold us out to the Fourth Reich.


  • #9
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    This isn't a politics forum.....


  • #10
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    No it's not a Politics forum but how is it anything to do with Commuting & Transport either? Removing free travel is not going to have any beneficial affect on CIE/IE or its services.


  • #11
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    No it's not a Politics forum but how is it anything to do with Commuting & Transport either? Removing free travel is not going to have any beneficial affect on CIE/IE or its services.
    It will save nothing and just mean that many services are operating with far fewer passengers and all without any subvention, many routes will stop running because of this meaning mass redundancies of normal workers in CIE and its associated transport companies, managers of course will just be moved somewhere else to do nothing at the expense of another department!


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  • #12
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    But we shouldn't be paying for Mary and Gerry to go from Cork to Dublin every weekend. It's public money which could be better used elsewhere. Of Course Irish Rail are n ot going to like it but this country is bigger than any one public or semi state company.


  • #13
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    devnull wrote: »
    But we shouldn't be paying for Mary and Gerry to go from Cork to Dublin every weekend. It's public money which could be better used elsewhere. Of Course Irish Rail are n ot going to like it but this country is bigger than any one public or semi state company.

    Why?


  • #14
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,680 ✭✭✭jd


    I wouldn't be surprised to see the entitlement to travel on peak time commuter services being revoked.


  • #15
    Morf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭Morf


    jd wrote: »
    I wouldn't be surprised to see the entitlement to travel on peak time commuter services being revoked.

    How would a person with a disability be able to get to one of their (possibly many) hospital appointments if this was the case?


  • #16
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,680 ✭✭✭jd


    Morf wrote: »
    How would a person with a disability be able to get to one of their (possibly many) hospital appointments if this was the case?

    They managed prior to 2006.
    http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2006/Pages/pr250906.aspx
    I presume if they needed to travel at peak time they'd have to pay for it.


  • #17
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    devnull wrote: »
    But we shouldn't be paying for Mary and Gerry to go from Cork to Dublin every weekend. It's public money which could be better used elsewhere. Of Course Irish Rail are n ot going to like it but this country is bigger than any one public or semi state company.

    You want all subvention on all public transport to end? this will mean the end of all public transport as none of the CIE companies can operate without the government handout! thousands more on the dole getting unemployment benefit and mortgage interest relief and community welfare payments and more medical cards more back to school allowances more feul allowances etc etc, it will cost more than it would ever save!

    As it stands it costs nothing for Mary and Gerry to head off every weekend as long as they don't take up the seat of a paying passenger which is unlikely as most pensioners tend to travel outside of the rush-hour times and paying passengers are more likely to place their luggage on the seats opposite them blocking all 4 seats at the table they are at and I have also seen similar selfish idiots bringing large pieces of luggage onto buses and place them onto seats beside or behind them.


  • #18
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Get a life would you. OAPs paid their taxes and are entitled to their free travel/medical cards etc.
    No they didn't. They paid taxes yes but when they were paying taxes these entitlements didn't exist (or did not to the same extent like when they extended med cards to all over 70 or when Seamus Brennan extended free travel into peak times) and no trust fund was established to pay for them.


  • #19
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    dowlingm wrote: »
    No they didn't. They paid taxes yes but when they were paying taxes these entitlements didn't exist (or did not to the same extent like when they extended med cards to all over 70 or when Seamus Brennan extended free travel into peak times) and no trust fund was established to pay for them.
    Does anyone remember paying 48% income tax as well as mad Prsi rates? Or when your mortgage interest was tipping along at 16-18% and when you would be told by the "community welfare officer" to take your 16year old son or daughter out of school and let them get a job(that wasn't there) to help pay the mortgage, all those people are becoming pensioners now and are not going to be short changed! It is not their fault that no "trust fund" was set up. The piper still has to be paid and with several referenda coming up if the government want Ireland inc to survive the pensioners will have to be looked after!


  • #20
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Some regular posters on this forum have a hobby horse when it comes to free travel. I can understand the objection to junkies and other ne"er do wells having this entitlement and I agree with the concept of means testing for all benefits but the removal of free travel from those who may have had services removed from their local hospitals and centralised to the Capital is surely unfair. As has been pointed out earlier, the real cost of the free travel scheme is minimal and it's removal would probably only lead to reduced services for the rest.


  • #21
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    will most likely see the removal of automatic spousal entitlement and the ending of automatic Free-Travel entitlement to Disability Allowance recipients.

    Hurray
    Fare payers will no longer do everything to avoid the top deck on Dublin Bus 40.
    I've never once seen an inspector and their strictest crackdown is a recorded voice message about possible fines.

    Dublin Bus may be “Serving the entire community” but they don't give a damn about comfort and safety of those paying fares, you know those who don't have a battered piece of cardboard and instead pay several hundred euro per year for what's called a service


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  • #22
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    bmaxi wrote: »
    Some regular posters on this forum have a hobby horse when it comes to free travel. I can understand the objection to junkies and other ne"er do wells having this entitlement and I agree with the concept of means testing for all benefits but the removal of free travel from those who may have had services removed from their local hospitals and centralised to the Capital is surely unfair. As has been pointed out earlier, the real cost of the free travel scheme is minimal and it's removal would probably only lead to reduced services for the rest.

    Perhaps it's myself thats "Hobby Horsing"..?

    Perhaps not,but just to clarify the pedigree of the beast from my perspective.

    The Free Travel Scheme was,and is,one of the most progressive Social Schemes ever enacted by an Irish Government...anytime,anywhere...I would contend that no other scheme has come close to achieving it's original aims.

    What I now see is a simple easily administered and accounted for scheme which has developed like a many headed hydra due to the manner in which it's original ethos has been diluted and spread like margarine on a slice of bread.

    As an integral part of our Social Insurance based schemes it's original availability was,off-peak,to Old Age Pensioners (aged 66+) only.

    Over the years,and particularly within the past decade,it has been used as some form of communal Asprin,to soothe the pains of many other categories of DSP customer.

    All of which is perfectly acceptable IF the accounting is modified to reflect this.

    The current situation isn that the Free-Travel Scheme budget has been capped by the DSP at 2010 levels,which is actively preventing new Service Providers from accepting "The Pass".

    So the 2010 budget is now providing for the needs of the 2012 DSP customers and that customer base has exploded.

    The last figures I came across were in a submission to a Joint Oireachtas Comittee,where a DSP delegation mentioned 600,000 Passes being in circulation.

    That figure was for Passes and did not include Spousal or Companion entitlements.

    No figures were forthcoming to outline how many passes were returned or nullified each year due to death or cessation of entitlement,because,it appears,such figures are not collated by the DSP.

    My great fear is that the ENTIRE Free-Travel scheme will collapse due to mismanagement and unsustainability if the current free-for-all continues.

    I strongly believe the DSP needs to get back to basics with Free Travel being substantially restricted to the original OAP and then reassessed for the deserving Disability Allowance recipients.

    Few appear to be concerned at the cost of providing a Bus/Train/Tram,Staff,Fuel,Insurance,without a commensurate income to fund at least some of it.

    It may not be politically correct or nice to admit,but there really is NO such thing as a free lunch.:(


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #23
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    You want all subvention on all public transport to end? this will mean the end of all public transport as none of the CIE companies can operate without the government handout! thousands more on the dole getting unemployment benefit and mortgage interest relief and community welfare payments and more medical cards more back to school allowances more feul allowances etc etc, it will cost more than it would ever save!

    As it stands it costs nothing for Mary and Gerry to head off every weekend

    Where did I say I want all subvention on public transport to end? I simply think there should be restrictions on free travel in the country, people traveling on local services, or commuter distance trains for instance should be free travel under the current scheme. However the companion pass, unless they are a carer, should be withdrawn.

    However there are many people who are not only abusing the system, but also using the pass to travel all over the country for holiday purposes. Intercity and long distance travel should be subsidized by the state for free travel pass holders, but it should not be free, especially during peak hours.

    Besides, it does cost something, for Mary and Gerry to head off every weekend because for every person who travels on the train, the taxpayer intake is used to pay the provider for the service, be that a private operator, Bus Eireann or Irish Rail.


  • #24
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Perhaps it's myself thats "Hobby Horsing"..?

    Perhaps not,but just to clarify the pedigree of the beast from my perspective.

    The Free Travel Scheme was,and is,one of the most progressive Social Schemes ever enacted by an Irish Government...anytime,anywhere...I would contend that no other scheme has come close to achieving it's original aims.

    What I now see is a simple easily administered and accounted for scheme which has developed like a many headed hydra due to the manner in which it's original ethos has been diluted and spread like margarine on a slice of bread.

    As an integral part of our Social Insurance based schemes it's original availability was,off-peak,to Old Age Pensioners (aged 66+) only.

    Over the years,and particularly within the past decade,it has been used as some form of communal Asprin,to soothe the pains of many other categories of DSP customer.

    All of which is perfectly acceptable IF the accounting is modified to reflect this.

    The current situation isn that the Free-Travel Scheme budget has been capped by the DSP at 2010 levels,which is actively preventing new Service Providers from accepting "The Pass".

    So the 2010 budget is now providing for the needs of the 2012 DSP customers and that customer base has exploded.

    The last figures I came across were in a submission to a Joint Oireachtas Comittee,where a DSP delegation mentioned 600,000 Passes being in circulation.

    That figure was for Passes and did not include Spousal or Companion entitlements.

    No figures were forthcoming to outline how many passes were returned or nullified each year due to death or cessation of entitlement,because,it appears,such figures are not collated by the DSP.

    My great fear is that the ENTIRE Free-Travel scheme will collapse due to mismanagement and unsustainability if the current free-for-all continues.

    I strongly believe the DSP needs to get back to basics with Free Travel being substantially restricted to the original OAP and then reassessed for the deserving Disability Allowance recipients.

    Few appear to be concerned at the cost of providing a Bus/Train/Tram,Staff,Fuel,Insurance,without a commensurate income to fund at least some of it.

    It may not be politically correct or nice to admit,but there really is NO such thing as a free lunch.:(

    It's not a free lunch, it's being provided by the taxpayer, just as many of the services enjoyed by the current generation were provided by the previous one.
    Some posters on this forum have a begrudging attitude towards recipients of free travel and as I already stated I too would remove the facility from those well able to afford it and those who, through their own actions, find themselves with a dependency.
    As regards pensioners and those with genuine disabilities, it's not a big deal to provide it.
    Trains, buses etc will still cost the same in fuel, tax, insurance etc. regardless as to whether they have free pass or paying customers and the obvious saving would be to cut the service, thereby impacting on all passengers.
    IMO, the biggest problem lies with the administration. When I was in Dublin City Services many years ago, there was a free travel facility for veterans of the War of Independence. many of those who availed of this were patently not even born in 1919 and every year the numbers seemed to increase. Nobody ever questioned them, no I.D> was ever required and as far as I know there could still be people travelling on them. It's just another example of the "nothing to do with me" attitude endemic in the public service. If you travel cross border and want to use the free travel there you will see a different attitude and an example of how this should be administered.


  • #25
    TheChrisD
    Registered Users Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I'd speculate [..] the ending of automatic Free-Travel entitlement to Disability Allowance recipients.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Pensioners will be back marching on the streets again. :p

    Pensioners and me, if that were the case.
    image.png




  • #26
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The needs of those who need to attend distant hospitals can and should be met by travel warrants matched to the number of appointments. If I have an appointment in Dublin twice a month from Athenry, I shouldn't be able to use a pass to go anywhere else in the country the rest of the month if I had the leisure to do so.

    As for the 48% tax etc - those taxes were not raised for future needs but for those of the then present where Ireland WAS living beyond its means hard as that is to believe now considering the then standard of living. A boom created by cheap money and multinational seekers of cheap manufacturing should not be construed as some kind of "investment coming good" which justifies huge and as AlekSmart points out increasing levels of social spending.


  • #27
    anotherlostie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭anotherlostie


    The revenue on the 79/A will shoot up dramatically after that audit. Never seen so many people not pay for the bus as on that service and while I appreciate there are many reasons why younger people can have passes, there can't be that many in such a small area of the city...


  • #28
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,007 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    It would be very interesting to see figures for the number of people availing of free travel.

    If it shows that extra carriages have to be put on trains to accommodate people with free passes, then I would tend to agree that the situation should be looked at. I also agree that free travel for people who are not specifically getting to work should be at off-peak times.

    Otherwise I cannot see what the problem is. The vehicle is going anyway. The vehicle is being manned anyway. There is spare capacity, why not let elderly people travel free? It does not actually cost the government anything in those circumstances.


  • #29
    Kurz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭Kurz


    Free travel passes for elderly and disabled people? You lot are angry about this? Jesus christ...


  • #30
    coolperson05
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭coolperson05


    It seems that all they need is proper regulation. As a user of the train it does annoy me when I see certain 'groups' with their purple free ticket laughing about all they bought in Forever 21 and how they were going to go out tonight - A generalisation but it happens...

    The Student Travelcard is well policed and you have your ID and that's it. So just have the inspectors checking, ask for your DSP card to prove free travel is one of your benefits, and all would be well. I do admit it's not a huge cost in the grand scheme of things, but as was mentioned above, it's a shame that such a good-natured service has been abused by some.

    Has the notion of introducing, like the medical cards, a nominal fee for fares? 5euro up to a certain amount?? (I realise that's more applicable to expensive transport rather than city bus services...)


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  • #31
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    looksee wrote: »
    Otherwise I cannot see what the problem is. The vehicle is going anyway. The vehicle is being manned anyway. There is spare capacity, why not let elderly people travel free? It does not actually cost the government anything in those circumstances.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a "free pass" gets onto the bus, is there a log kept for how many "free pass" people get on, and then is that charged by the provider from the government? If this is so, then yes, it would cost the government.
    Kurz wrote: »
    Free travel passes for elderly and disabled people? You lot are angry about this? Jesus christ...
    No, we're angry at the amount of scumbags who get free passes that take up the seats of paying passengers during peak times.


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