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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Target Pistols return to Ireland

13

Comments

  • #62
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    sparks,
    you still dont adress the fact that the EU passport does away with the import export certificates nonsense within the EU. It is the responsibility of the DOJ to explain this anamonly satisfactorily to those who pay their wages.Remember it is US the taxpayer that public "servants" are beholden to ,not vise versa,otherwise we are residing in a dictatorship.

    Of course I would challenge this in the courts if I/we had the monies to do so,but this seems to be the justice for all,if you can pay for it and who has hundreds of grands to throw at this arguement.Again another worm around the law system.

    Yes we will assume that you are liscensed to drive a car and will pay third party [minimum] for the vechicle.As you will to own and posses a firearm,which I will say in Europe in general are 1000% more stringent in requirements than in Ireland.AND you do need even in a gun club need public indemnity personally before you are issued with a liscense.Dont even start me on what you require for a hunting liscense!!No need to be so pendantic!

    Again the import cert proves itself to be irrevelant to anyone except DOJ.again I ask why,is this needed when EU law makes it unnecessary????
    Is it "gunrunning" if you are liscensed to posses the gun here.EUROPE doesnt think so!!this has been tried in the European courts already and found to be under EU law

    What are you supposed to do if the import cert is refused and the liscense is granted??Be a good sheep...er..citzen and wait untill our lords and masters in the dOJ deem to grant you this paper to import?? Meanwhile you are paying for an item you cant use????? for how many years???
    I think i know waht most of us would like to answer to that! I know what I will do as well if in that situation. As far as i am concerned EU law overrides Irish law on this and the DOJ had better realise that .
    if this is the case why isnt every shooter from outside ireland arrested at our airports and ports when they arrive here with the EU passport and no import cert?One law for them and one for us??

    Why is it confontrational to ask people whom we are paying their wages for a rational explaniation of their policies and reasons for doing so.Without a lot of smoke screens,blather and obfusication?? It suggests to me [1] incompetance [2] somthing to hide [3] ignorance and arrogance to those they are supposed to serve.
    If we cant get that out of our govt depts then we are living in no better than a dictatorship.


  • #63
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    sparks,
    you still dont adress the fact that the EU passport does away with the import export certificates nonsense within the EU.
    Well, firstly I'm not trying to justify the DoJ's way of doing things. I personally think our licencing system is a bit daft and ought to be replaced with something like the FAC system from the UK, and I've said so in my submission to the DoJ (it's posted in the sticky thread in this forum if you're interested).
    Secondly, the importation order has nothing to do with the EU passport. To use an analogy, the EU firearms pass is like your passport; the importation order is like your birth certificate. You only need the one importation order and it seems to just be to let the system know where the firearm originated from when it entered the system. It's got nothing to do with going abroad with the firearm for competition or whatever; that's covered by the licence and the permission from the destination state (or the licence in the destination state). The EU firearms pass is meant to act as that permission within the EU; but it currently doesn't in some countries.

    However, all of this is effectively irrelevant. The system is as the system is; and before we get it fixed, we have a more pressing concern on our hands, namely the upcoming amendments to the firearms acts that are on way in. Already the Order Papers for the Dail list the second reading of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 as the 14th item of business; so things are progressing rapidly there and that's where we should be focussed right now (with some focus also turned on the Barr Tribunal's sixth module which is currently underway.
    One thing at a time and all that.
    AND you do need even in a gun club need public indemnity personally before you are issued with a liscense.Dont even start me on what you require for a hunting liscense!!No need to be so pendantic!
    Actually, to be pedantic one more time, you don't need insurance in Ireland to own a firearm. It's a truly bad idea, but you legally don't need it and cannot be prosecuted for not having it. Now most clubs won't let you join without it, or have coverage for all members automatically (like the college clubs), but that's a private matter, not a public one, if you follow me.
    Is it "gunrunning" if you are liscensed to posses the gun here.
    Yes. I've asked.
    What are you supposed to do if the import cert is refused and the liscense is granted??Be a good sheep...er..citzen and wait untill our lords and masters in the dOJ deem to grant you this paper to import?? Meanwhile you are paying for an item you cant use????? for how many years???
    Yes, and in Frank Brophy's case, about ten years. In the case of DURC (which used to have fullbore rifles), about thirty years. This seems outrageous to us, I know, but it's perfectly legal and that's all the government worries over.
    I think i know waht most of us would like to answer to that!
    Just to make it clear; what we would like to answer to that is not necessarily what we would do. Just so that the gardai who are reading this thread don't think that we're discussing an armed insurrection, you understand...

    As far as i am concerned EU law overrides Irish law on this and the DOJ had better realise that .
    Before you pursue anything down that path Glock, I'd strongly recommend both seeking legal advice from a professional and talking to the relevant NGB...
    if this is the case why isnt every shooter from outside ireland arrested at our airports and ports when they arrive here with the EU passport and no import cert?One law for them and one for us??
    They have import certs - at home, same as us. Except for some people, who don't need them (by which I mean, for example, Germans who buy Anschutz rifles from the factory in their home country and thus don't import them. But they'd have receipts and so on to show the system where the firearm entered the system).

    Why is it confontrational to ask people whom we are paying their wages for a rational explaniation of their policies and reasons for doing so.
    It doesn't have to be. But it does depends on how you go about it.
    Without a lot of smoke screens,blather and obfusication?? It suggests to me [1] incompetance [2] somthing to hide [3] ignorance and arrogance to those they are supposed to serve.
    If we cant get that out of our govt depts then we are living in no better than a dictatorship.
    Now see, phrasing it like that is why it'd be confrontational. If you were in the DoJ and you got that in an email, you'd be on the defensive immediately or you'd be a very rare bird indeed. And there's nothing as unproductive as a civil servant on the defensive. It's just human nature, not malice. So a different approach is warranted. As my grandmother is wont to say, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.


  • #64
    les45
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭les45


    Sparks, I wonder if you may have put your finger on something, you mentioned that once the firearm is in the system it should be ok, would the fact that a firearm being purchased from a R.F.D in a another E.U country is already in the E.U system and as such it is technically free to be traded in the internal market with the correct Garda permission!,at the moment I have two pistols siting in N.I, with a Garda Licence for one and the second due very shortly, reading between the lines I get the distinct impression that they may never travel south!!, I hope not.


  • #65
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    would the fact that a firearm being purchased from a R.F.D in a another E.U country is already in the E.U system and as such it is technically free to be traded in the internal market with the correct Garda permission!
    Technically, it isn't. S.I. 362/1993, the European Communities (Acquisition and Possession of Weapons and Ammunition) Regulations 1993 (gotta love these short snappy titles) says in article 6,
    6. (1) A person from another Member State shall not transfer or attempt to transfer a firearm or ammunition to the State except with the prior consent of the Minister and without having obtained a licence for the transfer from the competent authority of that Member State.
    (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of the Control of Exports Order, 1983 (S.I. No. 405 of 1983), a person in the State shall not transfer or attempt to transfer a firearm or ammunition from the State to another Member State, except in accordance with a licence issued by the Minister.
    And then, just in case that doesn't cover every case, section 17 of the 1925 Act says:
    17.—(1) No person shall import into Saorstát Eireann any firearm, ammunition,
    or prohibited weapon unless such import is authorised by a continuing licence
    granted under this section and in force at the time, or by an occasional
    licence granted under this section and relating to the specific firearm,
    ammunition or prohibited weapon so imported.
    and
    (6) If any person imports into Saorstát Eireann a firearm or prohibited weapon
    or any ammunition without or otherwise than in accordance with a licence under
    this section authorising such importation or, in the case of ammunition, in
    quantities in excess of those so authorised, or fails to comply with any
    condition named in a licence granted to him under this section, he shall be
    guilty of an offence under this Act and shall be punishable accordingly.

    So basicly, unless you get the importation licence, you can't bring the two pistols you have in N.I. down here les. And the Garda licence doesn't make much difference, because it's the Minister who issues importation licences (well, the firearms unit in his name, usually). Hopefully, once the amendments come out, this will be cleared up in short order.


  • #66
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    destination state). The EU firearms pass is meant to act as that permission within the EU; but it currently doesn't in some countries.

    which ones are not accepting that?


    However, all of this is effectively irrelevant. The system is as the system is; and before we get it fixed, we have a more pressing concern on our hands, namely the upcoming amendments to the firearms acts that are on way in. Already the Order Papers for the Dail list the second reading of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 as the 14th item of business; so things are progressing rapidly there and that's where we should be focussed right now (with some focus also turned on the Barr Tribunal's sixth module which is currently underway.
    One thing at a time and all that.

    Any updates on that?What is the 14th item?all i can find on that is the debate on gun cabinets?can you enlighten us further?




    Yes, and in Frank Brophy's case, about ten years. In the case of DURC (which used to have fullbore rifles), about thirty years. This seems outrageous to us, I know, but it's perfectly legal and that's all the government worries over.


    Just to make it clear; what we would like to answer to that is not necessarily what we would do. Just so that the gardai who are reading this thread don't think that we're discussing an armed insurrection, you understand...



    Before you pursue anything down that path Glock, I'd strongly recommend both seeking legal advice from a professional and talking to the relevant NGB...
    I did ask my solicitor and he is consulting a SC on this off the record

    They have import certs - at home, same as us.
    Errr,you are supposed to bring this along with you to declare the gun at irish customs to prove that it is being legally brought into the country.i would think
    If ireland wont accept the EU passport and you have your import cert at home how do you prove [1] you are liscensed to own this [2] how it can be legally brougtt into the state?

    Except for some people, who don't need them (by which I mean, for example, Germans who buy Anschutz rifles from the factory in their home country and thus don't import them. But they'd have receipts and so on to show the system where the firearm entered the system).

    No they would have them on their Waffenschein[gun liscense] or Jagd schein
    [hunting liscense]. Unless they are frei waffen,which are air rifles/pistols under 12ftlbs.Germany runs on a liscense the person not the gun system.you would have dog and no chance of buying a weapon like that over there.You have to be liscensed.The EU passport should prove to all and sundry from ireland to poland that you are liscensed in your home country to own and posses the guns on the passport.



    It doesn't have to be. But it does depends on how you go about it.

    That and the last paragraph were intended as a personal question/opinion to ya.


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  • #67
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    destination state). The EU firearms pass is meant to act as that permission within the EU; but it currently doesn't in some countries.

    which ones are not accepting that?


    However, all of this is effectively irrelevant. The system is as the system is; and before we get it fixed, we have a more pressing concern on our hands, namely the upcoming amendments to the firearms acts that are on way in. Already the Order Papers for the Dail list the second reading of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 as the 14th item of business; so things are progressing rapidly there and that's where we should be focussed right now (with some focus also turned on the Barr Tribunal's sixth module which is currently underway.
    One thing at a time and all that.

    Any updates on that?What is the 14th item?all i can find on that is the debate on gun cabinets?can you enlighten us further?




    Yes, and in Frank Brophy's case, about ten years. In the case of DURC (which used to have fullbore rifles), about thirty years. This seems outrageous to us, I know, but it's perfectly legal and that's all the government worries over.


    Just to make it clear; what we would like to answer to that is not necessarily what we would do. Just so that the gardai who are reading this thread don't think that we're discussing an armed insurrection, you understand...



    Before you pursue anything down that path Glock, I'd strongly recommend both seeking legal advice from a professional and talking to the relevant NGB...
    I did ask my solicitor and he is consulting a SC on this off the record

    They have import certs - at home, same as us.
    Errr,you are supposed to bring this along with you to declare the gun at irish customs to prove that it is being legally brought into the country.i would think
    If ireland wont accept the EU passport and you have your import cert at home how do you prove [1] you are liscensed to own this [2] how it can be legally brougtt into the state?

    Except for some people, who don't need them (by which I mean, for example, Germans who buy Anschutz rifles from the factory in their home country and thus don't import them. But they'd have receipts and so on to show the system where the firearm entered the system).

    No they would have them on their Waffenschein[gun liscense] or Jagd schein
    [hunting liscense]. Unless they are frei waffen,which are air rifles/pistols under 12ftlbs.Germany runs on a liscense the person not the gun system.you would have dog and no chance of buying a weapon like that over there.You have to be liscensed.The EU passport should prove to all and sundry from ireland to poland that you are liscensed in your home country to own and posses the guns on the passport.



    It doesn't have to be. But it does depends on how you go about it.

    That and the last paragraph were intended as a personal question/opinion to ya.
    I think the countries with the EU passport difficulties are Ireland,UK,Sweden,Luxembourg and a.n.other.


  • #68
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    And this is precisely the core point of this import arguement.
    If you are liscensed by our leo[gardai] to posses a firearm in Ireland,that means you are entitled to posses it and ammo in this state.
    Why then is DOJ insisting on an import certificate?AND why are they supposedly obfusticating the issue for two months?AND not giving one coherent answer to all applicants?AND do we have any figures as to how many applications /liscenses granted are coming thru within the usual 12 week[seemingly] liscense renewal period??
    By rights if I am entitled to own the gun in this state ,it should be irrevlent if i have bought it in Ireland,England or Jalabad.It is now my liscensed property and i should be able to bring it into ireland without any further ado.If Doj insist on the import cert clause ,fine.But then on issuance of my firearms cert i should be able to get this import cert fastracked thru DOJ.

    If it is a car i simply re register it [and pay an illegal fee under EU law].Go to my local motor tax office and pay an[exhorbitant]road tax fee,then go and [be fleeced again] by the NCT I dont have to apply for an import cert from the revenue before i go over to the UK or wherever to buy it.

    This brings me onto the further point of the import cert/EU firearms passport.
    The firearms passport was desinged to do away with all the import/export paperwork between member states.As the firearms laws were so varied on continental europe this was logical,EG as it was likely that an Irish cert would be incomprehensible to a Danish police officer and vise versa.

    The firearms passport is exactly that.you register your legally held guns on it or the one you want to buy via your local firearms authorithy.if you havent got it on the passport it cant travel or be bought.
    This works all over Europe except here and the UK apprently in some cases being not undestood ?Why not here??

    Is this a case of DOJ worrying that their area is being upsurped by European law?
    Not knowing the European directive?
    DOJ seemingly doesnt give an explanation[which usually says around here, we dont know,and we will hide behind the decline to comment or not at liberty to say excuse]
    What does this import cert actually DO?Apart from the obvious of course.Is it a further revenue gatherer?
    Now what some of the others who vangaurded this affair of returning the pistols have simply said is;get it liscensed and simply go and collect it yourself in Europe,or the USA. you are liscensed to own it here so you are simply bringing your own property home. CAVET EMPTOR on this !!!
    the only place i could see this being anyway revelent would be if you were importing from outside the EU from the US and you were dealing with the State dept on large quantities of weapons.

    Usually the US dealers who handle international shipments are State dept Class 3[I think] liscensed and will only ship to another liscensed dealer in the reciving country.[your local gun dealer here].both dealers do a FFL transfer AFIK,so they regulate the paperwork,you as the customer are not involved again in requiring the import cert.So i am at a compleate loss as to why DOJ import/and peversely export certs are still required???
    Anyone got some coherent ideas on this??

    it seems to me to be a joint Garda /DOJ buckpassing enterprise.Gaurds;talk to DOJ ,they are our bosses. DOJ ;talk to the Gardai they are the deciders on firearms liscenseing and imports
    This seems to happen alot on various matters relating to these two forces here. The garda cheif says the min of justice and the doj is his boss.yet the min of justice says he does not get involved in the day to day running of the gaurds,nor will comment on their policies!!!
    S o it seems you could end up with a liscensed firearm,yet without an import cert to legally bring it in?what then?who do you turn to? you could be doing a PTO written on both sides of a sheet of paper between these two depts forever if they wanted to do so to you.
    Hi Glock
    I think we may be living in a dictatorship,it's well known that Govt. Depts do not talk to each other. This prevents one Dept from treading on the other Depts area of responsibility which keeps Depts happy but leaves their wagepayer (us) tearing our hair out trying to get info we are entitled to by law, unless you go the FOI way and pay for the service. I think Sparks is a little naive,after all he was not born when the crap hit the fan in 1972 so cannot be expected to be aware of all the facts. He does have a good level of knowledge but is not infallible. For example,the Amendments he refers to were promised approx.4 years ago and are still not with us. Promised for Christmas this year? Wait and see, I will be delighted if this happens but I too have been promised these changes are happening in the short term (two and a half years and still counting). If you check the Firearms Acts it also states that you are entitled to have in your possession a firearm or ammunition provided that you have a licence issued by the Minister or a Garda Superintendent.
    It is very difficult to quote accurately from the Firearms Acts without having the complete Acts in front of you as there are referrals to other Sections/Paragraphs which can give a different meaning. Good idea for anyone interested to either download and print it or obtain a copy of ALL Firearms Acts from Government Publications Office in Molesworth St. I also think that he said the firearms being held in the Park etc. were being held legally for 32 years. Absolutely not true. The Temporary Custody Order was for 1 month only and has NEVER been renewed since. This can be checked and is 100% accurate. The Government have been holding private individuals property illegally for 32 years without any form of compensation and with no legislation in place to allow them to do so. Latest info I have from the DoJ on pistol import licences is that no company or individual has been issued one to date. I got this info in a phone call on 8/10/04 at about 10.00 a.m. Can anyone out there contradict this? Seems to contradict info posted that stated pistols would be in shops/dealers on Thursday.
    Also heard that one pistol shooter with pistols in the Park is getting a hard time from Gardai regarding pistol application. Gardai want secure alarmed storage for the weapon (gun safe) and the alarm system must be on a separate circuit to the house alarm with GMS monitoring system and panic button. This is the same alarm requirements for firearms dealers and when I made enquiries,house system with GMS monitoring on a separate system costs about €3000 to install,probably knock about €1000 off if there is a house alarm already installed.
    Another person has been told that his pistol licence is being reviewed as the Gardai have been made aware that he lamps foxes (legally,with a rifle). This apparently from a phone call with his local Sergeant. Cheer up, it isn't all bad news, we still have some weapons to shoot,probably until the Amendments come in, so let's hope they take another four years.


  • #69
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    So much for my source then... :) Too good to be true, I suppose.

    Talking of local security requirments, this has already been a problem for full-bore rifle applications, with some firearms licencing officers pulling all sorts of requirments out of the air, such as insisting that the gunsafe was kept in the attic. Wouldn't a uniform national standard be so nice?

    To get around imports, what sort of stuff is in storage at the moment, and what would be involved in getting hold of it? I'm presuming a fair amount of the original owners have shuffled off this mortal coil, or are no longer interested.


  • #70
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    gouda wrote:
    Hi Glock
    I think we may be living in a dictatorship,it's well known that Govt. Depts do not talk to each other. This prevents one Dept from treading on the other Depts area of responsibility which keeps Depts happy but leaves their wagepayer (us) tearing our hair out trying to get info we are entitled to by law, unless you go the FOI way and pay for the service.
    Yeah I was wondering why the Govt was clamping down it it abit.musnt let the sheep er citizens get too uppity and knowledgeable now!

    Dont think he[Sparks] is naive,just that he wants to do it by the book and the nice guy way.Totally commendable and agreeable ,IF we were dealing with people who were going to play ball with us as well and,were regulated in what their powers are in law and statutes.however we are dealing with people who think they are the supreme power and have enough vague legislation to play around in and twist to their meaning.My feeling is that for 32 years we have been the nice guys,and it really hasnt gotten us anywhere until one or two of us stood up and said enough and we will take you[govt ]to court to settle this.i think maybe more of us have to do this.somtimes you really have to show some teeth before things get done.

    . For example,the Amendments he refers to were promised approx.4 years ago and are still not with us. Promised for Christmas this year? Wait and see,

    Wonder will all this happen the day before the Dail rises for Christmas.usually this i find is when unpleasent or "unimportant" legislation is rushed through.no debate or halfway decent opposition.But a clusterf*(^k for whomever it concerns.Remember the rod liscense wars?Maybe this time we should be prepared

    I It is very difficult to quote accurately from the Firearms Acts without having the complete Acts in front of you as there are referrals to other Sections/Paragraphs which can give a different meaning. Good idea for anyone interested to either download and print it or obtain a copy of ALL Firearms Acts from Government Publications Office in Molesworth St.

    www.bailii.org/ie
    all the irish laws and statutes downloadable and free.Some might be missing,but it is worth looking.Check with molesworth st for all the gun related legislation and then download what you can.


    I also think that he said the firearms being held in the Park etc. were being held legally for 32 years. Absolutely not true. The Temporary Custody Order was for 1 month only and has NEVER been renewed since. This can be checked and is 100% accurate.FACT The Government have been holding private individuals property illegally for 32 years without any form of compensation and with no legislation in place to allow them to do so. Latest info I have from the DoJ on pistol import licences is that no company or individual has been issued one to date. I got this info in a phone call on 8/10/04 at about 10.00 a.m. Can anyone out there contradict this? Seems to contradict info posted that stated pistols would be in shops/dealers on Thursday.
    Also heard that one pistol shooter with pistols in the Park is getting a hard time from Gardai regarding pistol application. Gardai want secure alarmed storage for the weapon (gun safe) and the alarm system must be on a separate circuit to the house alarm with GMS monitoring system and panic button. This is the same alarm requirements for firearms dealers and when I made enquiries,house system with GMS monitoring on a separate system costs about €3000 to install,probably knock about €1000 off if there is a house alarm already installed.

    YOU ARE BEING ROBBED!!!
    I can get a GSM dialler with 72hrs backrup from mains that can handle appx four zones,that will TEXT different phne nos with an alarm message and possibly a "listen in" function to hear wether somthing is going on or wether it is just a false alarm for about 300 STG or 500 euros.Wire it in yourself.if you can lay carpets you can lay pressure mats.dunno about the panic button tho.but if you have phone watch from eircom it costs how much PA?from what i understand from your post appx Euro 600 would sort him out
    Contact me offline anyone who wants to find out more.


    Another person has been told that his pistol licence is being reviewed as the Gardai have been made aware that he lamps foxes (legally,with a rifle). This apparently from a phone call with his local Sergeant.
    WTF has that got to do with his pistol lic????He isnt doing illegal. it just shows how all over the place this is!

    Cheer up, it isn't all bad news, we still have some weapons to shoot,probably until the Amendments come in, so let's hope they take another four years.

    Sure would like to get my stuff back from the US.But it looks like they will reside there much longer.reckon we will be all six foot under before this comes thru. :(


  • #71
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    civdef wrote:
    So much for my source then... :) Too good to be true, I suppose.

    Talking of local security requirments, this has already been a problem for full-bore rifle applications, with some firearms licencing officers pulling all sorts of requirments out of the air, such as insisting that the gunsafe was kept in the attic. Wouldn't a uniform national standard be so nice?

    Thats a fact. what do you do if you aint got an attic like me?Got a cellar tho.
    mine want me as either a member of a rifle club or deer hunting,can live with that ...sofar...

    To get around imports, what sort of stuff is in storage at the moment,

    Who knows! I would ASSume a good few mausers,lugers,webleys and other old stuff that would be quite valuble.
    I know that appx ten years ago appx a load of old lugers used and kept by the irish army as second echelon sidearms in WW2[captured from german ship,uboot and aircrews downed near or in Ireland] were sold to a texan luger specialist restorer.BTW Also we have a one of it's kind in ireland a full auto luger carbine.Have the german article,on the irish lugers will translate it for anyone intrested.

    and what would be involved in getting hold of it? I'm presuming a fair amount of the original owners have shuffled off this mortal coil, or are no longer interested.

    Would ASSume you would buy their chits off them and reregister and apply for the lics in your name.Bit of a difficult operation INMHO as [1] find somone who will be willing to sell and has proof of possesion [2] you are buying an unidentifable quantity. AKA a pig in a poke. How can you check that it is working ,in good condition,all there?Doubt that our helpful gardai will allow you into their security area or wherever it is supposedly stored to check the gun.
    AND I seriously doubt that any of these guns have seen any sort of maintenance in 30 plus years.How,where and in what condition have they been stored in??
    Also i have heard a rumour that some of these guns have"disappered"or been "temporairly mislaid"when the rightful owners wanted to take them out of ireland, only to turn up in either criminal raids or personal possesion of senior gardai. Can anyone confirm or deny??


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  • #72
    les45
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭les45


    I should have mentiones that the pistol permit I have is non caliber specific, nothing, nada, although on the Euro Pass it state the cal as .22, when I enquired I was informed that it was a "Pistol Licence" and as such the caliber was not important, I am looking forward to my next permit for my .45, re security I have a second safe, old fashioned big brute of a thing, this was deemed quite sufficent for the storage of firearms.


  • #73
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    Wonder would one of those appx euro50/60 personal safes with the electronic locks that you can buy in the co op or argus be considerd adequate storage for pistols??
    always thought the smart thing would be to have the cabinet as the "target" for the theif and the guns broken down and hidden all over the house or in a "stash" place that we all have in our houses,that only you know about.

    Theives are on a time limit of about ten/twenty mins.So that is enough to find the cabinet and jimmy it off the wall to open it later.imagine if they open it later to find it full of old scrap pipes and bricks to make up the weight?? With an FU sign in it as well? LOL

    This has worked for me.I was working in the UK and somone broke into our place.They doped up two dobermanns and managed to make off with one gun,[recoverd ten yrs later].As it was secured to the wall with a lock mechanism simmilar to what uS police cars have.However I est they walked over FOUR guns at least a dozen times that i had hidden under the stairs in false floor boards and in a hollowed out door.
    having a cabinet is fine for unauthorised access.HIDING INMHO is the better option for security.


  • #74
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    gouda wrote:
    I think the countries with the EU passport difficulties are Ireland,UK,Sweden,Luxembourg and a.n.other.
    No, Ireland's fine. The ROI anyway. You can come into Ireland with an EU pass, it's covered in that SI I posted. It's the UK that doesn't seem to accept it. (You do need to have a licence in the ROI for the firearm, the EU pass isn't a licence per se, it's just a passport - permission to enter, not to possess, if you follow me). There are some exceptions - some firearms can't be moved on an EU pass to some states. Basicly, it's not a single document that lets you go everywhere. But it's a start.
    Irishglockfan wrote:
    Any updates on that?What is the 14th item?all i can find on that is the debate on gun cabinets?can you enlighten us further?
    The 14th item on the Order Papers is the second reading of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004. As you know, the first reading was before the summer recess; the second is on the Order Papers; and then it goes to Committee. (Then there's the Report and Review stages, then it goes to the Seanad where they've 90 days to do all that over again, then it's signed and comes into effect).
    So basicly the first debate on the proposed Bill is coming up and should go through without much opposition on the firearms point; then the committee stage comes up and that's where the amendments will be introduced.
    The only amendment we know of now is the secure storage requirement. On that, by the way, there's two points in the latest Irish Shooters Digest that are inaccurate; firstly, the amendment being in the Criminal Justice Bill does not mean we're being put in a Criminal Justice Act, it's just expediency (and yes, it is rather a slap, but getting miffed the name of the bill would be like being annoyed that the glass with the hemlock in it isn't waterford crystal!); and secondly, the secure storage amendment does not mean that the Gardai can raid your home to see the gun safe. They have to make an appointment to see it and need your invitation to come in; and if you don't want that, you can always just prove to them that you have it (a receipt for purchase and installation, a photo, whatever).
    Errr,you are supposed to bring this along with you to declare the gun at irish customs to prove that it is being legally brought into the country.
    No, you're meant to bring your licence and EU pass to get past customs if you're a resident outside Ireland coming in, not your import licence.
    If ireland wont accept the EU passport
    But we do.
    The EU passport should prove to all and sundry from ireland to poland that you are liscensed in your home country to own and posses the guns on the passport.
    Er, no, it should prove that you have permission to travel with the firearm - you still need your home country licence at customs.
    That and the last paragraph were intended as a personal question/opinion to ya.
    Well, yes - but this is a public forum and I'd be surprised if there weren't one or two members of the Gardai reading it, the same way that quite a lot of them read the Shooters Digest...
    gouda wrote:
    the Amendments he refers to were promised approx.4 years ago and are still not with us. Promised for Christmas this year? Wait and see, I will be delighted if this happens but I too have been promised these changes are happening in the short term (two and a half years and still counting).
    Indeed - but now I think we're about to have them given to us whether we want them or not! Besides, they're on the order papers, so they're coming in - and if they don't, everything is legal and importable afterwards. So if they mysteriously didn't appear in the committee stage, that would be a very good thing from your point of view!
    If you check the Firearms Acts it also states that you are entitled to have in your possession a firearm or ammunition provided that you have a licence issued by the Minister or a Garda Superintendent.
    Yes, but it also states (section 17, paragraphs 1 and 6) that if you don't have an importation licence, you're in rather a lot of trouble.
    It is very difficult to quote accurately from the Firearms Acts without having the complete Acts in front of you as there are referrals to other Sections/Paragraphs which can give a different meaning.
    Try the Irish Statute Book. And yes, it does take a bit of reading, but that's the nature of these things.
    I also think that he said the firearms being held in the Park etc. were being held legally for 32 years. Absolutely not true. The Temporary Custody Order was for 1 month only and has NEVER been renewed since. This can be checked and is 100% accurate. The Government have been holding private individuals property illegally for 32 years without any form of compensation and with no legislation in place to allow them to do so.
    No, that's not correct. The TCO ran out after one month; but it's issuing was timed in such a way that when it came time to return all the firearms, new licences had to be granted. The Gardai refused to issue licences for large numbers of them (all pistols, all rifles over .22 calibre, all shotguns with a barrel shorter than 24") and since the firearms couldn't be returned without a licence, and since the shooters didn't want to sell them off, they basicly sat in limbo for 32 years. Down the years, so I'm told, some have sold them off. I know they've been inspected a few times. But basicly, they're still technically the property of the shooters they were confiscated from and therefore no compensation was ever due. It's a bit of legal hair-splitting, but it's certainly all legal on paper. Now I know a lot of people have said down through the years that this is all illegal; but that's basicly nonsense. I mean, seriously - if it was illegal, don't you think we'd have taken a High Court case thirty years ago? The previous generation of target shooters were hardly shrinking violets!
    Can anyone out there contradict this?
    No, that tallied with what I was hearing as well. (Civ's bit of news was quite interesting because of that, I thought there'd been a change). My best guess is that everyone is holding off on doing anything till the amendments are all settled, since the DoJ has announced that the amendments will be to do with the results of recent High Court cases on firearms legislation.
    Also heard that one pistol shooter with pistols in the Park is getting a hard time from Gardai regarding pistol application. Gardai want secure alarmed storage for the weapon (gun safe) and the alarm system must be on a separate circuit to the house alarm with GMS monitoring system and panic button. This is the same alarm requirements for firearms dealers and when I made enquiries,house system with GMS monitoring on a separate system costs about €3000 to install,probably knock about €1000 off if there is a house alarm already installed.
    The problem is that that's perfectly legal according to the letter of the law. The Superintendent has the right, as defended by the NARGC in Dunne v Donoghue to assign whatever preconditions he wants to the licence, and noone has the legal authority to countermand him without going to the high court for a judicial review, which can only instruct the Super to reconsider - it can't actually order him to grant a licence without preconditions. Hence my personal policy of never trying to rub a superintendent up the wrong way :D
    civdef wrote:
    Talking of local security requirments, this has already been a problem for full-bore rifle applications, with some firearms licencing officers pulling all sorts of requirments out of the air, such as insisting that the gunsafe was kept in the attic. Wouldn't a uniform national standard be so nice?
    *hehe*
    Right after Dunne v. Donoghue said one couldn't be imposed by the Commissioner :D
    Well, we may see it appear in the legislation yet :(
    At which point, be very worried - the last time someone tried to set a national standard for secure storage, it was a disasterous standard that violated a dozen health&safety and fire codes....
    To get around imports, what sort of stuff is in storage at the moment, and what would be involved in getting hold of it? I'm presuming a fair amount of the original owners have shuffled off this mortal coil, or are no longer interested.
    About the only source I've ever heard on this says that there was ~300 pistol shooters in 1972. If that's correct, I'd guess that we won't be seeing large numbers of pistols until the imports problem is sorted out.


  • #75
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    Dont think he[Sparks] is naive,just that he wants to do it by the book and the nice guy way.Totally commendable and agreeable ,IF we were dealing with people who were going to play ball with us as well and,were regulated in what their powers are in law and statutes.however we are dealing with people who think they are the supreme power and have enough vague legislation to play around in and twist to their meaning.
    Um, glock, for all realisitic intents and purposes, they are the supreme power :D
    (Unless you go to the courts and if that's your choice, I hope you have oodles of cash! The only ones who win in court are the soliciters and barristers...)
    My feeling is that for 32 years we have been the nice guys,and it really hasnt gotten us anywhere until one or two of us stood up and said enough and we will take you[govt ]to court to settle this.i think maybe more of us have to do this.somtimes you really have to show some teeth before things get done.
    I don't know. My feeling on this is that in Ireland it is unrealistic to think that you can beat the government with the stick of the judicial system. For example, look at the Bin tax. Prior to the last General Election, the bin tax protesters in Cork decided to not pay their bin tax. The Council let the rubbish stand and rot if you hadn't paid the tax. They were taken to court and the court ruled that noncollection of rubbish was in effect a group punishment (the rubbish drew rats and became a public health hazard) and thus was unlawful - the Council was forced to collect the rubbish whether or not you paid tax; the Bin Tax protestors had won.
    Then the government was re-elected and passed the Local Environment Act, ruling that Councils had the right to refuse to collect waste if the bin tax wasn't paid.
    In other words, the Court can rule that the Government isn't following the law - but the Government can then rewrite the law to get around that. That's what the NRPAI was told for years by the mandarins in the Department regarding firearms laws, and that's why the hardball approach wasn't taken. When Declan Keogh announced the formation of FLAG at the AGM of the NRPAI a few years ago, this point was made at the meeting, but never resolved satisfactorily. (See the report on the AGM in the Irish Marksman here).
    Wonder will all this happen the day before the Dail rises for Christmas.
    No, the amendments come in at Committee stage, so there won't be any underhanded tactics like that. It may just be shoved through anyway, mind - with a majority government, rising gun crime levels screamed about in every paper for the last few months, and the lack of knowlege about firearms in Dail Eireann, it wouldn't be surprising.


  • #76
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    How can you check that it is working ,in good condition,all there?Doubt that our helpful gardai will allow you into their security area or wherever it is supposedly stored to check the gun.
    Not for the purposes you're talking about, but they have been inspected over the years (only the owners could inspect them though).
    Also i have heard a rumour that some of these guns have"disappered"or been "temporairly mislaid"when the rightful owners wanted to take them out of ireland, only to turn up in either criminal raids or personal possesion of senior gardai. Can anyone confirm or deny??
    Never heard of that happening here. In the UK, there was such a case recently where a bobby had 17 pistols stashed away in his house that he'd walked away from the station with, but if it's happened here, I've never heard of it.
    les45 wrote:
    I should have mentiones that the pistol permit I have is non caliber specific, nothing, nada
    Good grief....


  • #77
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    Wonder would one of those appx euro50/60 personal safes with the electronic locks that you can buy in the co op or argus be considerd adequate storage for pistols??
    That's entirely down to the superintendent according to the amendment.
    Personally, I'm planning on getting one of those as an ammo lockbox next year.
    always thought the smart thing would be to have the cabinet as the "target" for the theif and the guns broken down and hidden all over the house or in a "stash" place that we all have in our houses,that only you know about.
    I take it there are no kids in your house? :D
    If you go that route, I'd personally set a safe into the floor and keep the stuff there, rather than leave five thousand euro's worth of rifle lying about in the open...
    Theives are on a time limit of about ten/twenty mins.
    Last time we were burgled (before I bought my rifles thankfully), they had an estimated six hours to go through our stuff (we were away for the weekend at the time). So I wouldn't count on average times!
    So that is enough to find the cabinet and jimmy it off the wall to open it later.imagine if they open it later to find it full of old scrap pipes and bricks to make up the weight?? With an FU sign in it as well? LOL
    There is a certain viscereal satisfaction in that idea :D
    having a cabinet is fine for unauthorised access.HIDING INMHO is the better option for security.
    So a hidden cabinet would be the best overall then! :D


  • #78
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    A tactic I've heard of it is to put a nice obvious gunsafe with a big cylinder of acetylene in it, then when mr. burglar takes a consaw or torch to it, he gets a surprise.

    The common tactic lately for robbing gunsafes is either to prise them off the wall and take the whole lot to be opened later, or chop the safe in situ with a consaw.


  • #79
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    les45 wrote:
    I should have mentiones that the pistol permit I have is non caliber specific, nothing, nada, although on the Euro Pass it state the cal as .22, when I enquired I was informed that it was a "Pistol Licence" and as such the caliber was not important,

    What format is the licence in? Presumably by what you say, it isn't the normal form?

    If so, that's strange, as the PULSE firearm system has the capability to handle handguns, it even has options for assault rifles in fact.


  • #80
    benhurt1
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭benhurt1


    Make Sure You Lock Up Your Consaws, Lads!!!


  • #81
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    Sparks wrote:
    That's entirely down to the superintendent according to the amendment.

    this is where i would like to see the exact requirements laid out for a gun box in law.as then he cant turn around and say it is too weak or whatever.
    Personally, I'm planning on getting one of those as an ammo lockbox next year.



    I take it there are no kids in your house? :D
    Nope!!just me :p
    have grown up around guns since I was three.All of them kept loaded as well.was daft enough to touch one when i was four.I ate dinner standing for a week later :o .not advocating such anymore but it is one thing that hasto be drilledinto kids from an early age .Gun saftey.

    Last time we were burgled (before I bought my rifles thankfully), they had an estimated six hours to go through our stuff (we were away for the weekend at the time).
    we live out in the country in isolation.discoverd that we were cased for about three days before they went in.

    So I wouldn't count on average times!
    Garda estimates on average breakins

    So a hidden cabinet would be the best overall then!

    Saw once a fantastic gun safe in a US publication.Cant find it anywhere in the US anymore.picture; a 55gal drum in size cylinder made from 1in welded steelwith a carosel type device inside.A offset 12inpipe with a key and combo lock.was called the gun vault.Bury it in your cellar or wherever.You put the long guns in each slot in the carosel.It held about 16 if i remember correctly and 8/10 handguns on the top of the carosel.Buried in concrete ,it was estimated only dynamite or a very large earth mover would shift this.
    Would that be safe enough for here and does anyone have any metal working shop skills and want to make a few quid?? :D


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  • #82
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    Sparks
    one other anomoly you mention and it is odd here is if all shotguns under 18in were pulled in in the TCA.Why then are there still knocking around some of the old 16!in winchester 1897 trench guns?? I have seen about a half dozen over the years liscensed on shotgun certs.[wish i had bought them as well :( ]
    It seems there is as usual exceptions to the rule as well here.

    On the guns in storage.Has anyone actually seen the conditions of their storage,IE the armoury or whatever.or is yours just pulled out of somwhere and presented to you for inspection?

    On the missing guns .i heard it was regarding a famous polar explorer whose guns went missing and were to be auctioned off by his family,they had disappered from garda custody,and were rediscoverd four yrs later in a supers "private"collection.


    So whats the consensus here folks?
    Do we continue to apply for import certs and lics for pistols and large cal rifles
    here and now?And/or possibly lose them after Dec

    Or do we "wait&see" after Dec as to what can happen?

    i havent stuck in my lic application for the Glock yet as I am in two minds now as to what can happen.i dont want to go theu a load of beraucratic bother only to have it snatched, or told it cant be imported ,or i have to move it out of the state again,with more burrocratic paperwork.
    OTOH i feel i should put it in as maybe there will be a limit as to how many may be imported and then a cuttoff occurs? :confused:
    Opinions /suggestions on this most welcome.

    Also may I ask here on the board how many of us have recived large cal pistol permits and how many 22 pistol permits and the turnaround times and any paticular reasons asked or conditions attached? Just think this info might be helpful to the rest of us who are applying or ,thinking of doing so.


  • #83
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    Sparks
    one other anomoly you mention and it is odd here is if all shotguns under 18in were pulled in in the TCA.Why then are there still knocking around some of the old 16!in winchester 1897 trench guns?? I have seen about a half dozen over the years liscensed on shotgun certs.[wish i had bought them as well :( ]
    It seems there is as usual exceptions to the rule as well here.
    Pretty much. The policy was for nothing under 24", but since the Superintendent is the legal authority, there were individual cases through the years where one or two exceptions were made, usually where the person involved was known by the superintendent.
    On the guns in storage.Has anyone actually seen the conditions of their storage,IE the armoury or whatever.or is yours just pulled out of somwhere and presented to you for inspection?
    The NRPAI inspected the warehouse a while ago. From the account, it sounds like they just walk you in to it, show you to your firearm, and then walk you out again afterwards.
    So whats the consensus here folks?
    Do we continue to apply for import certs and lics for pistols and large cal rifles
    here and now?And/or possibly lose them after Dec
    Or do we "wait&see" after Dec as to what can happen?
    Personally I'm waiting - and if the DoJ sees a lot of people applying for sidearms, they may have kittens!
    There's no basis in law for setting a limit to how many could be imported; but you won't, in all liklihood, get to import a pistol prior to the amendments coming out - that's not a verified fact, now, it's my best guess given the proclivities of civil service.
    Also may I ask here on the board how many of us have recived large cal pistol permits and how many 22 pistol permits and the turnaround times and any paticular reasons asked or conditions attached? Just think this info might be helpful to the rest of us who are applying or ,thinking of doing so.
    And can I ask that those who've applied for air pistols say so as well? (First on my list isn't a Glock, it's an IZH-41 air pistol :D )


  • #84
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    Said Glock after talking to the DOJ

    Rang DOJ today @12:10 had a chat re the importation lics. At the moment they cant/wont estimate how many applications are in for import certs. the minister is considering them "individually"[he's going to be a very busy man!]

    Now this is the kicker I think! according to the fellow I talked to here known as "D"in the firearms dept.
    If the Garda super grants the lic,and the country that you buy the gun are willing to let it be exported from their terrority.There is no problem with bringing it into Ireland!!!Straight from the nags gob!
    THE PROBLEM IS: THE AMMO!!!!you cannot import the ammunition without the import cert from the DOJ!!!!!

    So maybe this will be the scenario. Bring in whatever you please and pay the lics for it,after all you will be contributing to the state coffer.but you wont be able to use it anyway because we wont be granted or issued with an ammo import lic apart from the approved already in existance here calibres!! an irish solution ...etc etc..??? :eek:

    Sooo what do we end up with??22LR and possibly a load of "wildcat" loads in single shot thompson contenders?Or a damn good market for 22lr conversion kits?? :confused:

    Go figure this twist!!


  • #85
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Er, Glock, I asked them exactly the same question on importation and got exactly the opposite answer - that section 17 of the Firearms Act prohibits it. I'd call Declan back and verify it before I risked getting arrested for gun-running, myself...


  • #86
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    In most countries, you need to submit a copy of the import licence to be granted an export licence. This will apply particularly to pistols, which don't get the same exemptions from export controls as sporting rifles or shotguns.


  • #87
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    Sparks wrote:
    No, Ireland's fine. The ROI anyway. You can come into Ireland with an EU pass, it's covered in that SI I posted. It's the UK that doesn't seem to accept it. (You do need to have a licence in the ROI for the firearm, the EU pass isn't a licence per se, it's just a passport - permission to enter, not to possess, if you follow me). There are some exceptions - some firearms can't be moved on an EU pass to some states. Basicly, it's not a single document that lets you go everywhere. But it's a start.



    The 14th item on the Order Papers is the second reading of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004. As you know, the first reading was before the summer recess; the second is on the Order Papers; and then it goes to Committee. (Then there's the Report and Review stages, then it goes to the Seanad where they've 90 days to do all that over again, then it's signed and comes into effect).
    So basicly the first debate on the proposed Bill is coming up and should go through without much opposition on the firearms point; then the committee stage comes up and that's where the amendments will be introduced.
    The only amendment we know of now is the secure storage requirement. On that, by the way, there's two points in the latest Irish Shooters Digest that are inaccurate; firstly, the amendment being in the Criminal Justice Bill does not mean we're being put in a Criminal Justice Act, it's just expediency (and yes, it is rather a slap, but getting miffed the name of the bill would be like being annoyed that the glass with the hemlock in it isn't waterford crystal!); and secondly, the secure storage amendment does not mean that the Gardai can raid your home to see the gun safe. They have to make an appointment to see it and need your invitation to come in; and if you don't want that, you can always just prove to them that you have it (a receipt for purchase and installation, a photo, whatever).


    No, you're meant to bring your licence and EU pass to get past customs if you're a resident outside Ireland coming in, not your import licence.


    But we do.


    Er, no, it should prove that you have permission to travel with the firearm - you still need your home country licence at customs.


    Well, yes - but this is a public forum and I'd be surprised if there weren't one or two members of the Gardai reading it, the same way that quite a lot of them read the Shooters Digest...


    Indeed - but now I think we're about to have them given to us whether we want them or not! Besides, they're on the order papers, so they're coming in - and if they don't, everything is legal and importable afterwards. So if they mysteriously didn't appear in the committee stage, that would be a very good thing from your point of view!


    Yes, but it also states (section 17, paragraphs 1 and 6) that if you don't have an importation licence, you're in rather a lot of trouble.


    Try the Irish Statute Book. And yes, it does take a bit of reading, but that's the nature of these things.


    No, that's not correct. The TCO ran out after one month; but it's issuing was timed in such a way that when it came time to return all the firearms, new licences had to be granted. The Gardai refused to issue licences for large numbers of them (all pistols, all rifles over .22 calibre, all shotguns with a barrel shorter than 24") and since the firearms couldn't be returned without a licence, and since the shooters didn't want to sell them off, they basicly sat in limbo for 32 years. Down the years, so I'm told, some have sold them off. I know they've been inspected a few times. But basicly, they're still technically the property of the shooters they were confiscated from and therefore no compensation was ever due. It's a bit of legal hair-splitting, but it's certainly all legal on paper. Now I know a lot of people have said down through the years that this is all illegal; but that's basicly nonsense. I mean, seriously - if it was illegal, don't you think we'd have taken a High Court case thirty years ago? The previous generation of target shooters were hardly shrinking violets!


    No, that tallied with what I was hearing as well. (Civ's bit of news was quite interesting because of that, I thought there'd been a change). My best guess is that everyone is holding off on doing anything till the amendments are all settled, since the DoJ has announced that the amendments will be to do with the results of recent High Court cases on firearms legislation.


    The problem is that that's perfectly legal according to the letter of the law. The Superintendent has the right, as defended by the NARGC in Dunne v Donoghue to assign whatever preconditions he wants to the licence, and noone has the legal authority to countermand him without going to the high court for a judicial review, which can only instruct the Super to reconsider - it can't actually order him to grant a licence without preconditions. Hence my personal policy of never trying to rub a superintendent up the wrong way :D


    *hehe*
    Right after Dunne v. Donoghue said one couldn't be imposed by the Commissioner :D
    Well, we may see it appear in the legislation yet :(
    At which point, be very worried - the last time someone tried to set a national standard for secure storage, it was a disasterous standard that violated a dozen health&safety and fire codes....


    About the only source I've ever heard on this says that there was ~300 pistol shooters in 1972. If that's correct, I'd guess that we won't be seeing large numbers of pistols until the imports problem is sorted out.
    Ireland does not accept the Euro Passport on it's own,which was the original idea. I know you need an Irish licence also but this was not supposed to be the case and the fact that there are only five countries who do not accept it on it's own merit proves my point.


  • #88
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    Sparks wrote:
    Er, Glock, I asked them exactly the same question on importation and got exactly the opposite answer - that section 17 of the Firearms Act prohibits it. I'd call Declan back and verify it before I risked getting arrested for gun-running, myself...
    I believe you are now beginning to see the light,DO NOT BELIEVE DoJ if they cannot/will not back up with written reply. Been there,done that etc. If it is law it's written down otherwise it's opinion and opinion will not count in Court. Give my regards to Declan, he must have a huge headache from all the queries but if he quoted legislation more often than policy or opinion his headaches and the number of queries would definitely diminish.


  • #89
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Er, gouda, the EU firearms pass is meant to be a passport type affair, not a licence. Are you sure it was initially meant to be a licence? Because right back as far as the actual EU directive on the firearms pass (91/477/EEC) it was made out to be a passport kind of thing, over the EEC breaking down the internal boundaries between markets within the then-EEC. It states quite explicitly that it does not overrule a member state's own rules on firearms:
    Article 3
    Member States may adopt in their legislation provisions which are more stringent than those provided for in this Directive, subject to the rights conferred on residents of the Member States by Article 12 (2).


  • #90
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    gouda wrote:
    I believe you are now beginning to see the light,DO NOT BELIEVE DoJ if they cannot/will not back up with written reply. Been there,done that etc. If it is law it's written down otherwise it's opinion and opinion will not count in Court. Give my regards to Declan, he must have a huge headache from all the queries but if he quoted legislation more often than policy or opinion his headaches and the number of queries would definitely diminish.
    Well, article 17, section 6 of the act is pretty explicit...


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  • #91
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    Said Glock after talking to the DOJ

    Rang DOJ today @12:10 had a chat re the importation lics. At the moment they cant/wont estimate how many applications are in for import certs. the minister is considering them "individually"[he's going to be a very busy man!]

    Now this is the kicker I think! according to the fellow I talked to here known as "D"in the firearms dept.
    If the Garda super grants the lic,and the country that you buy the gun are willing to let it be exported from their terrority.There is no problem with bringing it into Ireland!!!Straight from the nags gob!
    THE PROBLEM IS: THE AMMO!!!!you cannot import the ammunition without the import cert from the DOJ!!!!!

    So maybe this will be the scenario. Bring in whatever you please and pay the lics for it,after all you will be contributing to the state coffer.but you wont be able to use it anyway because we wont be granted or issued with an ammo import lic apart from the approved already in existance here calibres!! an irish solution ...etc etc..??? :eek:

    Sooo what do we end up with??22LR and possibly a load of "wildcat" loads in single shot thompson contenders?Or a damn good market for 22lr conversion kits?? :confused:

    Go figure this twist!!
    No twist,the reply is identical to one I received following Nick Flood's High Court case. DoJ would not issue an Import licence to me for a .308 but if I got a licence for a .308 from my Super they would then issue an Import licence. Never asked about the ammo as I have no current interest in .308, was just checking the situation. Seems I am at last been vindicated about DoJ and innacurate/ill informed replies to questions. Go by what it says in the Firearms Acts and you wil be ok as it's hard to break the law when you can quote the legislation. On the other hand if you REALLY want to live dangerous ask DoJ difficult questions and then follow their advice TO THE LETTER. Shouldn't take long to get an appointment to speak with a High Court Judge if you follow DoJ advice on Firearms Law.


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