A vote for Labour is a vote for Abortion - Iona Institute

nesf · 11-02-2011 11:02am #1

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-any-vote-for-the-labour-party-is-a-vote-for-abortion-2535719.html

All I can do is laugh about this. I mean, do they really think that the average person who listens to the Iona Institute would even remotely consider voting Labour with its liberal social outlook?

SafeSurfer · 11-02-2011 11:18am

What a deeply, deeply cynical article.

11-02-2011 11:20am

Heading into Mass on Sunday I spotted the local Fine Gael and Labour candidates canvassing outside. The presence of the Labour candidate struck me as odd, to put it mildly. Labour party policy is pro-abortion. Therefore, on a very important issue Labour is utterly at variance with the beliefs of the vast majority of serious-minded practising Catholics.

What do "serious-minded practising Catholics" have to do with mass? The majority of mass-goers are not "serious-minded practising Catholics"

Retail Hell · 11-02-2011 11:20am

good enough reason to vote for labour then

NothingMan · 11-02-2011 11:25am

For Mobile users.

David Quinn: Any vote for the Labour Party is a vote for abortion

Eamon Gilmore on the campaign trail yesterday

By David Quinn

Friday February 11 2011

Heading into Mass on Sunday I spotted the local Fine Gael and Labour candidates canvassing outside. The presence of the Labour candidate struck me as odd, to put it mildly. Labour party policy is pro-abortion. Therefore, on a very important issue Labour is utterly at variance with the beliefs of the vast majority of serious-minded practising Catholics.
Politicians seek votes where they may, but given the profound gulf between Labour and the Catholic Church on this issue, it seemed particularly cynical to be canvassing for votes in this way.
I've been amazed in the last few weeks at the number of practising Catholics I've come across who are considering voting for Labour. Given that Labour is pro-abortion, how do they justify this?
It turns out a lot of them haven't the first clue about Labour's position on abortion. Amazing, but true. They don't know, for example, that Labour wants to legislate for the X case ruling of 1992.
That ruling allows for abortion, and furthermore, it permits abortion simply on the say-so of a medical practitioner -- it doesn't have to be a doctor or psychiatrist -- who is willing to say that his or her patient is suicidal.
In addition, Eamon Gilmore favours abortion where the 'health' of the mother is in danger. In practice, this would replicate in Ireland the British abortion law. In Britain, abortion is permitted where a woman's life or health is at risk. Health includes mental health. In practice, this translates into abortion-on-demand.
Gilmore favours this policy despite the fact that Ireland is the safest place in the world for a woman to have a baby, according to World Health Organisation figures.
And from a Catholic and Christian point of view, it is not only Labour's stance on abortion that is problematic. It favours same-sex marriage and same-sex adoption. Its attitude towards denominational schools is also a problem.
If the first category of Catholics and Christians thinking of voting for Labour are those who don't know the party's position on abortion, there is a second category that somehow manages to rationalise away the Labour position, to say that it doesn'tmatter, or that there are more important issues to be considered.
Some Catholics I've come across seem to think Labour doesn't really mean it. Sorry, it does. If it gets a chance -- and that will be up to FG -- we will have abortion in this country.
Others protest that they are not single-issue voters. But no one is asking them to be. However, some issues are of first-order importance and one of them is the right to life.
Still others will say that Labour's position on abortion must be balanced against its position on other issues also of importance to Christians, namely those that generally fall under the heading of 'social justice'.
They claim that Labour's policies on such issues as poverty, health and education outweigh its policy on abortion.
At a stretch this might be true if Fine Gael and Fianna Fail were championing policies that would definitely and deliberately harm the poor and the sick and the uneducated.
But the differences between the three main parties on these issues are actually rather small, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. We can argue 'til the cows come home about which set of policies will do more harm or more good to this or that set of people. But this is a prudential judgment, not a moral one.
At a minimum, neither Fine Gael nor Fianna Fail is setting out to do harm to the poor and the sick, whereas Labour's policy on abortion would do very deliberate harm to the unborn. That is not a prudential judgement. That is a fact.
- David Quinn

My expert analysis is David Quinn is an idiot. I'll be voting Labour for all the reasons he says people shouldn't.

Morag · 11-02-2011 11:28am

That same claptrap was printed in the Alive magazine which is then availble in chruches and shoved into the letter boxes of many homes.

CokaColumbo · 11-02-2011 11:46am

Labour is canvassing a site of holy worship and a central aim of the party is to legalise and institutionalise the entirely inhuman killing of unborn babies. This is entirely at odds with the beliefs of Catholics. Labour should admit their policy to Catholics instead of attempting to deceive them into casting a vote for such a group. I think it's akin to a political party which promotes eugenics deciding to canvas outside an event for Down Syndrome people and attempting to squeeze a few votes out of them.

lyverbird1 · 11-02-2011 11:50am

Sharrow wrote: »

That same claptrap was printed in the Alive magazine which is then availble in chruches and shoved into the letter boxes of many homes.

Alive magazine: Perhaps the most offensive publication I've ever read. I can no longer read it as the bile it so often spews makes me sick. I always hope to catch the delivery person putting it through my door so I can hand it back to them. Otherwise it goes straight to the recycling bin because I wouldn't even use it for floor covering when polishing shoes...

11-02-2011 11:51am

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Labour is canvassing a site of holy worship and a central aim of the party is to legalise and institutionalise the entirely inhuman killing of unborn babies. This is entirely at odds with the beliefs of Catholics. Labour should admit their policy to Catholics instead of attempting to deceive them into casting a vote for such a group. I think it's akin to a political party which promotes eugenics deciding to canvas outside an event for Down Syndrome people and attempting to squeeze a few votes out of them.

There are many, many mass-going Catholics in this country which are pro-choice, so it would appear to not be "entirely at odds with the beliefs of Catholics"

PES activist · 11-02-2011 11:51am

A depressing and deeply cynical article by David Quinn attempting to replicate in Ireland the same culture wars tactics that have disfigured political discourse in the United States. What we can be sure of, however, is that the cynical exploitation of a hot button issue like this has little or no traction in this Republic execpt amongst people who already dismiss Labour as godless communists and other such nonsense.

bleg · 11-02-2011 11:57am

That would actually make me want to vote Labour.

PES activist · 11-02-2011 12:02pm

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Labour is canvassing a site of holy worship and a central aim of the party is to legalise and institutionalise the entirely inhuman killing of unborn babies. This is entirely at odds with the beliefs of Catholics. Labour should admit their policy to Catholics instead of attempting to deceive them into casting a vote for such a group. I think it's akin to a political party which promotes eugenics deciding to canvas outside an event for Down Syndrome people and attempting to squeeze a few votes out of them.

This is an example of the emotional exploitation that is associated with much of the so-called pro-life movement. Labour's plans are to legislate for the existing constitutional rights of Irish citizens to access abortion in this State in certain limited circumstances as already defined by the Supreme Court. Labour has been very clear in expressing its view on this matter unlike as Coka claims.

Again, unlike Coka's claim, Labour expresses its position on this issue in non-emotive, clear and reasoned language based on Irish constitutional law. Given a choice between Coka's fundamentalist approach and Labour's reasoned approach it is any wonder that this issue is having little traction in this election, in spite of the game attempts by David Quinn to stir up an Irish version of US culture wars.

The fundi pro-lifers that sought to intimidate Eamon Gilmore's family by protesting outside his home a couple of weeks ago should take note.

annascott · 11-02-2011 12:04pm

ditto

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-02-2011 12:11pm

Wouldn't a referendum be required to legalise abortion?

The cynic in me says Quinn is more scared that labour might make the educational system fairer to non-Catholics and is pulling the stronger abortion card to do so

11-02-2011 12:18pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Wouldn't a referendum be required to legalise abortion?

No. The constitution allows for abortion where the mother's life is in danger, and this has been confirmed by the Supreme Court (the X case). However, even though this happened in 1992, no government in the intervening time has actually legislated for it (despite finding time to create legislation for blasphemy on the same grounds)

CokaColumbo · 11-02-2011 12:26pm

PES activist wrote: »

This is an example of the emotional exploitation that is associated with much of the so-called pro-life movement. Labour's plans are to legislate for the existing constitutional rights of Irish citizens to access abortion in this State in certain limited circumstances as already defined by the Supreme Court. Labour has been very clear in expressing its view on this matter unlike as Coka claims.

Again, unlike Coka's claim, Labour expresses its position on this issue in non-emotive, clear and reasoned language based on Irish constitutional law. Given a choice between Coka's fundamentalist approach and Labour's reasoned approach it is any wonder that this issue is having little traction in this election, in spite of the game attempts by David Quinn to stir up an Irish version of US culture wars.

The fundi pro-lifers that sought to intimidate Eamon Gilmore's family by protesting outside his home a couple of weeks ago should take note.

Your insulting and condescending post is unnecessary. Calling somebody a fundamentalist and engaging in other shít-slinging is not only inappropriate, it is also distinctly hypocritical as you are the very person who is claiming to be the voice of clear, unemotional reason. Please, if you take issue with my comment, deal with a point that I actually made, instead of being hypocritically confrontational. That would be the 'clear', 'rational', and 'logical' thing to do, my friend.

11-02-2011 12:31pm

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Your insulting and condescending post is unnecessary. Calling somebody a fundamentalist and engaging in other shít-slinging is not only inappropriate, it is also distinctly hypocritical as you are the very person who is claiming to be the voice of clear, unemotional reason. Please, if you take issue with my comment, deal with a point that I actually made, instead of being hypocritically confrontational. That would be the 'clear', 'rational', and 'logical' thing to do, my friend.

That's exactly what they did. You claimed Labour were not being clear on this issue, they pointed out that they were perfectly clear.

And unless you were outside Eamonn Gilmore's house a few weeks ago, they did not call you a fundamentalist

Lockstep · 11-02-2011 12:35pm

I'm a Catholic and I'll be voting Labour.

Focussing on abortion is silly, especially given the current climate. Thwere are many other issues to consider. Catholic social teaching is very compatible with the Labour party, given that it criticises both unrestrained capitalism and communism. Papal encyclicals like Rerum Novarum echo a lot of what Labour espouses.

PES activist · 11-02-2011 12:39pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Wouldn't a referendum be required to legalise abortion?

The cynic in me says Quinn is more scared that labour might make the educational system fairer to non-Catholics and is pulling the stronger abortion card to do so

Beyond the existing Supreme Court rulings allowing abortion in very limited circumstances (threat to life of mother, including suicide, and severe foetal abnormality such that it woud not survive birth or much afterwards), yes a referendum would be required.

Your point on Labour's education proposal is spot on. This will have a significant effect on the Catholic chuirch's role in public education in Ireland. The intersting thing is that changes to the church's role in education are also being proposed by the Archbishop of Dublin!

johnie89 · 11-02-2011 12:51pm

nesf wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-any-vote-for-the-labour-party-is-a-vote-for-abortion-2535719.html

All I can do is laugh about this. I mean, do they really think that the average person who listens to the Iona Institute would even remotely consider voting Labour with its liberal social outlook?

I have lost the last remaining respect I've ever had for the Irish Independent.

Min · 11-02-2011 1:17pm

Lockstep wrote: »

I'm a Catholic and I'll be voting Labour.

Focussing on abortion is silly, especially given the current climate. Thwere are many other issues to consider. Catholic social teaching is very compatible with the Labour party, given that it criticises both unrestrained capitalism and communism. Papal encyclicals like Rerum Novarum echo a lot of what Labour espouses.

I don't think Labour is compatible with Catholic teaching, in their manifesto they promise a referendum to change the meaning of marriage so to allow same sex marriage.
Ivana Bacik is always on wanting abortion legalised, complaining about Catholic schools when most Irish people would have got no education if it was not for these schools in the past.

I wouldn't vote for Labour.

bernardo mac · 11-02-2011 1:18pm

David Quinn and his supporters are working hard to ensure their seats in Heaven:rolleyes:

Min · 11-02-2011 1:21pm

bernardo mac wrote: »

David Quinn and his supporters are working hard to ensure their seats in Heaven:rolleyes:

To save the lives of those who have no say, Labour don't have to worry about the unborn that are killed in the womb - they will never have a say.

11-02-2011 1:22pm

Min wrote: »

I don't think Labour is compatible with Catholic teaching, in their manifesto they promise a referendum to change the meaning of marriage so to allow same sex marriage.

The state's definition of marriage. Nothing to do with the sacrament.

Min · 11-02-2011 1:27pm

28064212 wrote: »

The state's definition of marriage. Nothing to do with the sacrament.

I am talking about compatibility between both.

11-02-2011 1:30pm

Min wrote: »

I am talking about compatibility between both.

There's no compatibility issue. Does the Catholic church recognise Muslim marriages? Of course not. The state recognises both, just like it will recognise gay marriage

han090 · 11-02-2011 1:40pm

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Labour is canvassing a site of holy worship and a central aim of the party is to legalise and institutionalise the entirely inhuman killing of unborn babies.

Central aim of the party?

What planet do you live on?

Like others, if labour are pro abortion, that's all the more reason to vote labour.

Additionally, why does it matter what labour's position on it is? The worst they can do is instigate a referendum...and then the people will speak. If abortion is as unpopular as this fool thinks it is, then it won't get passed anyway.

Morag · 11-02-2011 1:40pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Wouldn't a referendum be required to legalise abortion?

Right now the HSE are paying for women to go to the UK to have medical proceedures which are legal here. Due to the cowards we have had in the Dáil who have stalled and refused to legislate for the abortions which are not on demand abortions but where the woman is going to die where there is an immediate medical risk, which the High Court says said is grounds for a legal abortion, where the HSE due to their duty of care is sending women to the UK.

Who ever the next government is they can't stall on this issue any longer, they have been hypercritical long enough and are causing undue pain and hurt to couples who find themselves in a horrendous situation.

This is how it is, but many want to keep their head in the sand on this, or else use it as a political football to try and scaremonger people and derail the discussions in this election.

bernardo mac · 11-02-2011 1:41pm

Min wrote: »

To save the lives of those who have no say, Labour don't have to worry about the unborn that are killed in the womb - they will never have a say.

Pregnant women who smoke and drink alcohol to excess do not appear to worry about their unborn too

Morag · 11-02-2011 1:43pm

Min wrote: »

I don't think Labour is compatible with Catholic teaching, in their manifesto they promise a referendum to change the meaning of marriage so to allow same sex marriage.
Ivana Bacik is always on wanting abortion legalised, complaining about Catholic schools when most Irish people would have got no education if it was not for these schools in the past.

I wouldn't vote for Labour.

Fine don't vote for labour if their polices to not align with your morals.
But Ireland is changing and the relics of the past don't serve us now and won't in the future either.

The situations of the schools is again successful governments ignoring the rights and parents and children.

Catholic is no longer the default for everyone.

Zubeneschamali · 11-02-2011 1:46pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Wouldn't a referendum be required to legalise abortion?

We already passed one, back in 1983. My first time voting for anything.

Mind you, nobody knew that was what it would do and I voted against it, since it was supposed to copper-fasten our legal ban on abortion, and I was in favour of legalized abortion.

In fact, the amendment was so badly written that made our previous anti-abortion law unconstitutional, and abortion has been legal (but unavailable) ever since.

A vote for Labour is a vote for Abortion - Iona Institute

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