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Over 1,200 licensed guns stolen in five years

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    #92
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Rew wrote: »
    The want versus need argument is lame you can argue we dont need much of anything in the world but it would be a **** world to live in.

    Whats your hobby I guarantee I can take lumps out of it with that argument.

    As I said just because the Gardai dont operate the law peopely is not a good reason to ban soimething.

    And just because you want something is no reason to allow other people to be put in danger by its existence.

    Your right, I dont 'need' sport or books or indeed a lot of things I enjoy like fast food and if people were being force fed fattening food until they die I would have to accept peoples safety over my desire. Just like I accept I cant smoke in many public places because my 'want' to smoke is not as important as your 'need' for healthy lungs.

    If your weapons are stolen and used to commit murder you need to take some of the responsibility just as people arguing for ownership need to look at themselves and consider the likes of Dunblane. Could you argue your point to the parents that lost children? I doubt they would accept your points.


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    #93
    fishdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭fishdog


    Fish, you cant say what a super would or would not do. In a lot of places he has little to do with licensing anyway.
    In most cases I would agree, but with pistols he has everything to do with licensing, 1st off he must personally sign off on it.

    They always insist on security for pistols (safes, alarms etc.)
    I used my father as an example to show a lot of guns (Note its not a shotgun) are being held without any real need or reason.
    I know and you have a valid point. This issue does need addressing.

    I find little evidence to suggest any but a minor amount are actually needed and certainly thats the case in suburban areas.
    Well if someone owns a firearm and has not bought any ammunition for it for many years (that should be easy to check as the FAC details are recorded everytime ammunition is purchased) or if they have nowhere to use it why not refuse to relicense it??
    In the case of handguns, the arguements for allowing ownershipi rest on the simple fact that pistol owners 'want' to own them. They certainly dont 'need' to own them.
    I think this could be applied to sports cars! Legally held sports cars have killed far more people than legally held firearms.


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    #94
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Dunblane could have been prevented before it happend it was a failing of the police not firearms ownership but it was the firearms owners who paid for it.

    I think if someone wants to kill 16 kids then they will do it regardless of having a gun or not. I happen to know people who have been shot and shot and killed their their families dont blame the guns they blame those responsible. If you steal my car and kill someone am I responsible? Stolen cars are used in robberies and murders every day. Will not have a gun prevent a murder or will they pick up a knife or a blunt object instead?


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    #95
    metman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    Rew wrote: »
    Dunblane could have been prevented before it happend it was a failing of the police not firearms ownership but it was the firearms owners who paid for it.

    What a moronic post. I believe it was the 17 innocent victims who lost their lives that paid for it. Gun laws were tightened up post Dunblane in an attempt to prevent a repitition of mass-murder, and as a result gun owners had to surrender their pistols, boo hoo.

    I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post, as it would only embarrass you further than you have already embarrassed yourself.

    It's posts like this that concern me, when they're the view of a person in possession of a firearm, purportedly.


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    #96
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1499723/Released-files-reveal-police-failure-over-Dunblane.html
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/2860977.stm
    http://news.scotsman.com/dunblanekillings/Dunblane-files-show-police-flaws.2666156.jp

    http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Thomas-Hamilton-(Dunblane-murderer)
    The Sportsman’s Association report identifies 18 documented procedural failings by Central Scottish Police, each of which in its own right should have resulted in Hamilton’s Firearms Certificate (FAC) being revoked. These were fundamental policing errors and omissions each of which would have removed Hamilton’s authority to possess firearms well before Dunblane.


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    #97
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Heckler


    metman wrote: »
    What a moronic post. I believe it was the 17 innocent victims who lost their lives that paid for it. Gun laws were tightened up post Dunblane in an attempt to prevent a repitition of mass-murder, and as a result gun owners had to surrender their pistols, boo hoo.

    I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post, as it would only embarrass you further than you have already embarrassed yourself.

    It's posts like this that concern me, when they're the view of a person in possession of a firearm, purportedly.

    Boohoo indeed. And what did the UK handgun ban do ? Push up the rate of guncrime by 500 percent.

    I own a .22lr rifle. Kept in a gun safe with a 24hr monitored alarm. Nobody outside the people living where the rifle is (family) know where I store it. Even if my close friends ask me where I keep it I say at the rifle range because you never know how things might get back to the wrong person. Note that my rifle club does not store firearms for the very reason that it would be a huge target for criminals.

    Every time the gun debate is brought up Dunblane is cited. This is unfair. Some say Dunblane was a failure of the UK police to recognise a threat when the firearm licence was approved. I own a firearm now. Whos to say in 10 years time I'm not going to have some sort of mental breakdown and go nuts with my rifle ? To legislate against the maybes and possibles is a downward trend. To Metman the level of knife crime in Britain should be of far more immediate concern to all involved.


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    #98
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    metman wrote: »
    What a moronic post. I believe it was the 17 innocent victims who lost their lives that paid for it. Gun laws were tightened up post Dunblane in an attempt to prevent a repitition of mass-murder, and as a result gun owners had to surrender their pistols, boo hoo.

    The vast majority of pistol owners in the UK had done nothing wrong, yet were punished for it. To that extent, they also put a bit of a joint payment for Dunblane.

    How many other things do we remove from society because someone might do something wrong with it? In the same year as the 17 were killed at Dunblane, how many people were killed by drunk drivers, yet we do not take away people's car keys or stop letting people buy alcohol. We don't put 70mph speed limiters on cars, even though it's supposedly unlawful and dangerous to go faster than that. Firearms produce an emotive and irrational response, for some reason.

    NTM


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    #99
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Heckler wrote: »
    I own a firearm now. Whos to say in 10 years time I'm not going to have some sort of mental breakdown and go nuts with my rifle ?

    Thats exactly why all firearms should be in Garda armories imo. Sign in/sign out for them.


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    #100
    metman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    In response to the question, what would you take into the afterlife? Heckler replies:
    Heckler wrote: »
    Guns. Lots of guns. Just in case.

    I have no further questions your honour :rolleyes:


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    #101
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    It was a joke and an obvious one at that and dragging it in here is sad. Did you look at the other resposnes in that thread? Cock rings, weed, Worcester sauce, "A bible, to scribble out all the lies"?


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    #102
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Heckler


    metman wrote: »
    In response to the question, what would you take into the afterlife? Heckler replies:



    I have no further questions your honour :rolleyes:

    A joke. A quote from the matrix. Relax lad. While I'd love to believe I'm a well remembered poster I doubt it so do you actually go back into a posters history to drag up an obvious joke post like that to use as a stupidly founded arguement ? If so you need to get out more.


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    #103
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Heckler


    eroo wrote: »
    Thats exactly why all firearms should be in Garda armories imo. Sign in/sign out for them.

    And whats to prevent me from going on my murderous spree after I sign my firearm out of Garda hands Or do all Guards now have to be trained psychologists able to see the homicidal rage in my eyes ? Gimme a feckin break......


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    #104
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    metman wrote: »
    What a moronic post. I believe it was the 17 innocent victims who lost their lives that paid for it. Gun laws were tightened up post Dunblane in an attempt to prevent a repitition of mass-murder, and as a result gun owners had to surrender their pistols, boo hoo.

    Yes, the innocence did pay terribly for that mans actions, however so did the thousands of other law abiding hand gun owners, me being one of them. Our discipline was taken from us at the stroke of a pen because of one mans actions.

    Irrespective of who is to blame for the lack of action, I am of the firm belief that had the police revoked & seized his firearms he would have still gone about obtaining an illegal one & still gone ahead and committed this atrocity.

    Responsible people, who have met the criteria, are issued licences to possess firearms. Hamilton had come to notice of the police for serious allegations and despite the actions of a DS, he was still granted one when it should have been revoked, hindsight is brilliant.

    Responsible people include serving members of the police, who have lost their firearms or have an ND in public (DPG recently shooting himself in the leg).

    So when a person is granted his/her licence & has fulfilled the criteria required, and then it is stolen, they cannot be held responsible for its actions later. Same scenario stated earlier with a car.


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    #105
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Heckler


    There is also the huge problem of the countrymans shotgun leaning against the back of the door. I bought my rifle not a year ago from a private seller who kept it under the stairs !!!

    This is a young man with 3 kids about the house. He also tried to give me a moderator until I informed him that I had no licence or need for one. The ignorance is boggling.

    He was granted a licence without question because he lived in a small rural community where he would meet his issuing garda in the pub on a regular basis. Anyone who thinks the old days of who you know are gone is wrong.I would hazard a guess that most privately owned firearms stolen are shotguns from 1. rural houses and 2. Rural houses with neither an alarm nor gunsafe. I would bet money on this. Ignorant but well intentioned farmers looking to solve their rodent problems.


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    #106
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Its seems shooters are the only ones who want something actually done about gun crime.


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    #107
    metman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    Yes, the innocence did pay terribly for that mans actions, however so did the thousands of other law abiding hand gun owners, me being one of them.

    To reiterate my earlier point; I find the comparison of 16 children and 1 adult losing their lives to a murderer, and the loss of a hobby, sad and particularly disturbing.

    It seems to be a common trend amongst some private shooters.


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    #108
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    What because I blame those at fault as opposed to those who had nothing to do with it? And to clarify my point the Police failed those children and they were they not held accoutable.


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    #109
    Traumadoc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    Perhaps they should ban cooking?

    http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jun/08/news/mn-7888


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    #110
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Rew wrote: »
    Its seems shooters are the only ones who want something actually done about gun crime.

    If you are going to make posts like that, then don't even bother posting at all..please.:mad:


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    #111
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Heckler


    metman wrote: »
    To reiterate my earlier point; I find the comparison of 16 children and 1 adult losing their lives to a murderer, and the loss of a hobby, sad and particularly disturbing.

    It seems to be a common trend amongst some private shooters.

    Thats a very news of the world type post. I take it you are a serving police officer ? You should know better. Thats the post of a wind up merchant. Cop yourself on.


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    #112
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    metman wrote: »
    To reiterate my earlier point; I find the comparison of 16 children and 1 adult losing their lives to a murderer, and the loss of a hobby, sad and particularly disturbing.

    A poor comparison, in my opinion, and like me, you are entitled to yours.


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    #113
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    eroo wrote: »
    If you are going to make posts like that, then don't even bother posting at all..please.:mad:

    Sorry I ment to say "...something that might actually have an effect done..."


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    #114
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    eroo wrote: »
    If you are going to make posts like that, then don't even bother posting at all..please.:mad:

    That's rich.
    eroo wrote: »
    Thats exactly why all firearms should be in Garda armories imo. Sign in/sign out for them.

    Hmmm, let me see. Ok, once I've signed out my firearm from the nice policeman, where will I go to shoot some people. :rolleyes:


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    #115
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    That's rich.

    I stand by that post. It's a genuine suggestion, rather than a ridiculous statement.


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    #116
    metman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    Heckler wrote: »
    Thats a very news of the world type post. I take it you are a serving police officer ? You should know better. Thats the post of a wind up merchant. Cop yourself on.

    I take it you're a news of the world reader? You should know better.

    As for copping yourself on, hilarious pun. Genius. Though more Sun, than News of the World, another one of your literary dailys no doubt.


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    #117
    dredre
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭dredre


    Ok so all the legally held firearms which are stolen each year are never used in any crime... What are they being taken for? Decorations in pubs?

    Many gun crimes never have the weapon identified. In fact many times it is never discharged and so cannot be traced. This does not mean the weapons are not being used in the commission of crimes.

    I do not see any need for someone whose hobby is shooting to actually own or store a gun. Certainly not a handgun. If this is inconvenient, well to be honest, that's just tough.


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    #118
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    eroo wrote: »
    I stand by that post. It's a genuine suggestion,

    Of course it is, silly me............ ;)


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    #119
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    Of course it is, silly me............ ;)

    Well, at least you have realised that.;)


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    #120
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    metman wrote: »
    I take it you're a news of the world reader?

    Oi, what's wrong with the News 'n' Screws then....... DM & EK canteen tables were littered with them & the Current Bun.

    Hot digety, we used to start our ET under Marble Arch in the IRV with a Benjys breakfast roll, coffee and a copy of the News 'n' Screws on a Sunday morning. We moved for nothing until at least page 19. :D


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    #121
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    eroo wrote: »
    Well, at least you have realised that.;)

    Yep, still birching myself, on number 37 of 50 at the mo.....


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