Better equipment for the Gardai

TheNog · 09-12-2007 12:07am #1

We all know the equipment we have and the equipment we should have. The radioes, cars, protective equipment, facilities etc. The list is endless.

I want to know what ideas members serving and retired would suggest. Just looking at the English police and the stuff they have is far better than ours.

Has the Gardai been starved of cash for too long?

My two cents is for the roll-out of the a digital system asap. I don't know how many times the radioes have failed, even the radio in the station fails a couple of times a day. Having said that I have heard of problems with the system the English Police have in members getting sick from using it.
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2119506/uk-police-sick-tetra-handsets

The Ford Focus cars are a bloody joke. The car's 1.4l engine is simply not up to the job of any type of intercept. The Mondeo while a good car is pretty much a family car with no facilities to hold a violent prisoner. It seems that the only restraint a prisoner can be put under is a garda sitting on him/her. Didnt BMW offer to build purpose-built cars for our use and it was turned down?

Its a bit futurist but could be up to the job
http://horsepowersports.com/purpose-built-police-car-from-carbon-motors-and-lotus/

kopparberg · 09-12-2007 12:51am

uniforms, computers, email, lockers, firearm ranges, driver training, armed assistance. lack of public order vans, mace, rigid handcuffs, detective training, the list goes on an on its strange that other changes can be brought in overnight in some cases but items that the general membership have demanded for years can be talked about, studied, put on trial, reported on again, anothe study, then a costing, then tender and a date set to issue to the membership and a year or two later here we go. it cant be that difficult in these days of international standards ( human rights, accountability and training to degree level (all of which im in favour of)) are implemented without much debate if its the done thing we must do it to remain a top police service???? but these other services we adspire to copy for some reasn have all the items and courses listed above as standard but an garda siochana have to wait and see to see it it can be done without.

in addition " a time for change" appilies only to rank and file. officers talk the talk but when the chips are down its all the way it was and look after the lads.

i almost forgot a fair promotion system. and a merit based ststem for appointment to specilised units.

sure i forgot something

timmywex · 09-12-2007 10:57am

the government always rant on about road safety, but alot of stations dont have anything to do anything about road safety, i know of some garda stations that dont have speed guns, and these serve anything up to 30000 people!! with no traffic corps covering the area

also, anpr is a must, and quickly.
go look at the london met website, then at the garda website, they shouldnt even be compared.

kopparboerg mentioned firearms ranges, they currently bring sheets or bottles or other to a quarry and shoot at them for a while

civdef · 09-12-2007 12:55pm

they currently bring sheets or bottles or other to a quarry and shoot at them for a while

Got a source for that?

civdef · 09-12-2007 1:39pm

What is strange is when in an expert report the Garda Inspectorate makes recommendations that defensive spray be issued to all members in the interests of safety, the commissioner simply overrules this based on what he perceives public opinion to be ?

Shield · 09-12-2007 2:05pm

timmywex wrote: »

they currently bring sheets or bottles or other to a quarry and shoot at them for a while

Using bottles? For a 5 metre shoot? BOTTLES?

I'd also like to know where you heard this from. I met plenty of Gardai in Belfast doing their firearms training in PSNI facilities.

timmywex · 09-12-2007 2:21pm

souce; ive been on location when its done, this was a year ago, they had the target range sheet things, im not sure now about the eru or detectives in dublin, but certainly in the south east, im fairly sure it remains the same, will find out.

sunnyjim · 09-12-2007 5:26pm

civdef wrote: »

What is strange is when in an expert report the Garda Inspectorate makes recommendations that defensive spray be issued to all members in the interests of safety, the commissioner simply overrules this based on what he perceives public opinion to be ?

Now that the oulfella is gone, it might be brought in - Fachtna was involved in a lot of new set-ups within the GS, with Admin and the CAB - maybe he's not afraid of change like Conroy was.

TheNog · 10-12-2007 3:54am

sunnyjim wrote: »

Now that the oulfella is gone, it might be brought in - Fachtna was involved in a lot of new set-ups within the GS, with Admin and the CAB - maybe he's not afraid of change like Conroy was.

I was thinking the same thing. It seemed to me that Noel was a yes man of McDowells. When I saw him on TV he didn't give the impression of a real leader,you know impression of someone who can make the hard decisions no matter what the consequences as long as they were the right ones.

I'm new to the job with only 6 months done but I'm already dumb struck with the lack of proper equipment in the job. On my first day I was SO and I was greeted by the sight of the station radio which I first saw in the early 1980's when my dad was in the force. This thing or should I say dinosaur is older than I am and I'm 31 yrs old. Every now and then young fellas broadcast abuse at us over the radio. I've heard that the new TETRA system as been approved since July '07 and only the contracts have to be signed but apparently they are dragging their feet. I will feel alot safer when we get the digital in.

Also when i started the district patrol car had been crashed a week before so we were using a Ford Focus for three months. Like I mean how the hell can you properly patrol a district in a 1.4l car. It meant we couldn't catch any speeding or dangerous motorist. We were actually responding to an urgent assistance call 35km away and the cars top speed was 150kph!!!! The only other car available to us at the time was the DDU car which is also a 1.4l car. It is unbelieveable. Who ever approved the Focus as a patrol should be shot balls of their own sh**e. However now that we have the mondeo back we also have an unmarked subaru forester for anvil which is a great improvement. Those subarus really can shift.

The uniform is a bit of a joke alright. I have had all my trousers re-stitched at the groin area cos they always burst, the garda emblem on my vest has worn off after only 3 months use. One night we went to a house in an estate where the alarm was going off. As I was coming around from the back of house the SO rang me to say the next door neighbour saw a man coming round from the back of the house. THAT WAS ME!!!!! But of course she couldn't have known cos the emblem was gone on the vest. On leaving the college I was given a torch that has great light for any near objects but completely useless long distance. I had to buy the maglite in the shop for €50.

I am most curious of the ASPs. They are lethal things and what interests me most is what will happen to a member who accidently hits a fella say on the knee or ankle and smashes the bone. Who is going to pay for compensation? and will that member be blocked? Only time will tell.

timmywex · 10-12-2007 6:10pm

TheNog,

have you trained in asp's yet?? they are vicious things but if someone is resisting arrest, then am i right to say force can be used, how far the force goes is another thing,but the garda may feel he is defending himself either, these bats are used world wide so i suppose they have been tetsed for that kinda thing, damm hard to close as well!!

Shield · 10-12-2007 6:25pm

The ASPs are alright if you know how to use them properly. Even just the noise of it extending is enough to stop some people dead in their tracks. Plus, it looks better than the old leg of a table that you are currently issued with.

source · 10-12-2007 7:33pm

I always thought the gardai used the the army pistol ranges, at least they, do in Kilworth and Gormanston

DublinWriter · 10-12-2007 8:10pm

kopparberg wrote: »

in addition " a time for change" appilies only to rank and file. officers talk the talk but when the chips are down its all the way it was and look after the lads.

By 'officers' I presume you mean Supers and up?

You have to remember that an appointment to the Rank of Superintendent still remains a political appointment; it still has to be individually approved by the Government.

At that stage in your career, you are not going to rock the boat.

It took the death of a young member in Raheny by stabbing a few years ago to get the stab-vests 'fast-tracked'. Even up until very recently, the uniform was still circa-1922 with that impractical heavy woolen-tunic.

ScubaDave · 10-12-2007 10:56pm

TheNog, i have one of those torchs, and i can tell you that they are 10 times better than standard mag lites! Can i recommend new batteries!?

TheNog · 11-12-2007 5:01am

timmywex wrote: »

TheNog,

have you trained in asp's yet?? they are vicious things but if someone is resisting arrest, then am i right to say force can be used, how far the force goes is another thing,but the garda may feel he is defending himself either, these bats are used world wide so i suppose they have been tetsed for that kinda thing, damm hard to close as well!!

I was trained in the college with asp. they are a great comfort to have and I've already had to use mine on one fella. Fortunately i hit him on the upper arm with it but at least he didn't get back up until i told him to. " SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!!!!!!!"

I have heard that an asp was broken when a member was smashing the windscreen of a car. Must be a strong lad.

TheNog · 11-12-2007 5:04am

ScubaDave wrote: »

TheNog, i have one of those torchs, and i can tell you that they are 10 times better than standard mag lites! Can i recommend new batteries!?

I have a 3 cell maglite which i find does the business. Batteries are a pain cos the standard ones in the local shops don't last very long. The batteries I got with the torch were brilliant and lasted ages. Unfortunatley I don't remember the type of battery they were.

If anyone could recommend a good battery type please let me know

CLADA · 11-12-2007 10:04am

Just for your own information there Nog, ASP do an excellent torch that fits in the palm of your hand. For its size it is far superior to anything maglite are making.
And now that you have the ASP baton the maglite no longer needs to double up as a weapon of defence:D

Hagar · 11-12-2007 10:10am

There are LED versions of the Maglite torches available. Less likely to break a bulb if dropped etc. Helps battery life too I think.

vasch_ro · 11-12-2007 11:44am

TheNog wrote: »

I'm new to the job with only 6 months done but I'm already dumb struck with the lack of proper equipment in the job.

IThe uniform is a bit of a joke alright.

I am most curious of the ASPs. They are lethal things and what interests me most is what will happen to a member who accidently hits a fella say on the knee or ankle and smashes the bone. Who is going to pay for compensation? and will that member be blocked? Only time will tell.

i have a little more service than yourself and i think the equipment is getting better and better, I agree the radio system is in dire need of overhaul ,but since the inspectorate came in things have changed and will change further, we now have stab vests/ and asps and the word on the street is that pepper spray/mace is only a matter of time as well as rigid handcuffs. the new students have been issued with LED torches. So just give it a little time ,the glass is always half full mate !!

Re the Uniform;I like the new version, (ie the fleece etc ) far superior to the old jumper and I believe a revised version of the jacket is on the way, I have been isseud with new boots and the are great, very comfortable, goretex lined and good support.

Once anyone can show that their response when using the asp was considered and resaonable compared to the amount of force being used against them, then all should be okay, I actuall y know someone that broke a fella's leg and so far so good as everything was lawful and just. using a maglite is a guranteed way to end up in court and should never be condoned by anyone.

DMC2005 · 12-12-2007 4:32pm

TheNog wrote: »

We were actually responding to an urgent assistance call 35km away and the cars top speed was 150kph!!!! The only other car available to us at the time was the DDU car which is also a 1.4l car. It is unbelieveable.

Thats close on 100mph .... What speed would you have liked to be going at?

Any faster sounds like a signifigant danger to other road users to me.....

TheNog · 12-12-2007 6:00pm

It was at 3am in the morning so no other traffic, the road was straight in many places with a good surface and the call was for an urgent assistance. Also the driver was an ex-traffic man so has been trained to drive at those speeds. He drove at excessive (over the limit) but not an unsafe speed.

Anyway try to overtake other vehicles in a 1.4l car with sirens and lights on and the road users don't see or hear you.It creates a danger to you and the other road users plus slower respond time all for saving a few of grand in the purchase but the fuel economy of the Focus is dire compared to the Mondeo. The point I'm trying to make is for a better car to respond to emergency calls quicker and safer.

100mph is not that fast in a higher powered car which has better handling and grip on the road. I was once in a mondeo travelling at 140mph on a motorway, now that was scary.

DMC2005 · 12-12-2007 6:50pm

TheNog wrote: »

It was at 3am in the morning so no other traffic, the road was straight in many places with a good surface

Its amazing how often the story of a crash begins with a sentence like that. Sadly its often followed by "he came out of nowhere".

TheNog wrote: »

try to overtake other vehicles in a 1.4l car with sirens and lights on and the road users don't see or hear you.It creates a danger to you and the other road users.

So its a danger to other road users when you overtake, but perfectly safe for everyone when you drive at 100mph???

TheNog · 12-12-2007 7:10pm

DMC2005 wrote: »

Its amazing how often the story of a crash begins with a sentence like that. Sadly its often followed by "he came out of nowhere".

So its a danger to other road users when you overtake, but perfectly safe for everyone when you drive at 100mph???

I think you are missing the point here. All road users, including myself are pretty much untrained drivers whereas the driver I was with was a highly trained and skilled driver. Believe me I have a young family and want to get home safely to them so if I didnt feel confident in his driving ability then I would have asked him to slow down a bit.

When driving at 100mph there are risks involved but it is how you manage those risks and limit them as much as possible that makes the difference between a skilled driver and an unskilled driver. In our jobs there is always a certain amount of risk it is how you deal with that risk that can ensure your safety.

DMC2005 · 12-12-2007 8:13pm

What I'm suggesting is a policy similar to that implemented in Australia where certain vehicles are not allowed exceed certain limits.

For example a police van would not be permitted break speed limits at all. A focus would be limited to 120. A mondeo would be limited to 150 and their dedicated traffic cars would be permitted to exceed 150 only when their most highly qualified drivers are at the wheel.

This avoids the problem of police drivers getting an adrenalin rush and losing their sense of judgement.

Down under that driver would be severly reprimanded for that speed in a focus - its not safe to do 100mph in a focus no matter who is at the wheel.

Shield · 12-12-2007 8:38pm

DMC2005 wrote: »

its not safe to do 100mph in a focus no matter who is at the wheel.

There are experts over at the motors forum that may have a different view on this comment. I see the point you are making though, and it is very valid.

The problem is that we don't live in an ideal world. Crime doesn't happen when the right vehicle is in the right place at the right time. That puts us in a lose/lose situation. Give chase in what's available with the highest trained driver we have available, or have the media slam us for doing nothing, or not doing enough to catch the suspect.

All it takes is 1 eye witness to suggest we didn't do enough, and the media circus begins.

On the other hand, all it takes is 1 eye witness to suggest we were going too fast in the wrong type of vehicle, and the media circus begins.

CLADA · 12-12-2007 8:45pm

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Shield · 12-12-2007 8:49pm

Thanks for the Theodore Roosevelt quote there CLADA.

JonAnderton · 12-12-2007 8:53pm

Looking for a good torch, try the Surefire range. A lot of us over here (London Met) have replaced the old maglites with them...

As for Airwave. If they didn't have the ability to make private person-to-person calls or phone calls, they'd be totally sh***

CLADA · 12-12-2007 8:55pm

Yeah! I'm particularly fond of the first seven words.:D

Shield · 12-12-2007 10:17pm

Bulb life on the surefire products isn't that great I've found. Although I've yet to find something better out there. Maglite is just too oldschool these days.

JonAnderton · 12-12-2007 10:42pm

yeah, the surefire burn out after a short while... Not really good for longterm illumination but as you say, maglites are old school... Can't hold a candle to the surefires

Do you see what I did there... Surefires, maglites, holding candles..oh, forget it...lol

Better equipment for the Gardai

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