"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Dravokivich · 20-12-2011 2:00am

Posy wrote: »

I still fail to see why they couldn't have used a 'scan on-scan off' system for Dublin bus. Telling the driver where you want to go makes having a card pretty pointless.

TBH, most of the time I use a bus is when I'm coming home from doing me mesages. I don't want to be holding 3/4 bags in 1 hand trying to rush off the bus and touch off at the same time.

I s'pose the same arguement could be made for parents with kids / buggies...

cson · 20-12-2011 2:14am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

It adds up that the Leap Card is better value for the Irish Taxpayer's.

It may prove to be but by all accounts at the moment it's cost €50m for a semi functional system which is clearly causing users, DB officials and retailers major hassle.

Posy · 20-12-2011 2:53am

Dravokivich wrote: »

TBH, most of the time I use a bus is when I'm coming home from doing me mesages. I don't want to be holding 3/4 bags in 1 hand trying to rush off the bus and touch off at the same time.

I s'pose the same arguement could be made for parents with kids / buggies...

But you have to get on the bus with the shopping/buggy etc.. scanning a card on the way out can't be any trickier than having to get on at the coin side, tell the driver your destination and try and balance the card on the slanted scanner.

I just can't understand the point of a card that takes longer to use than paying cash, completely defeats the purpose for me!

Dravokivich · 20-12-2011 12:02pm

You queue up to get on, not to get off.

bk · 20-12-2011 1:05pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

If you are using google chrome it is a waste of time, still type or click www.leapcard.ie. Still no problems when I typed that in. Are you using Safari, IE9 or Firefox?

If you drop the www it doesn't work on any browser including Chrome.

This is due to a lack of a simple one line DNS entry. Very unprofessional.

The Google Translate thing is a good idea, as only a quarter of people use Chrome, however it seems to be inconsistently implemented on this site.

Shelli2 · 20-12-2011 5:47pm

I've been using Leap for since the 'launch' Monday last week, purely Dublin bus with driver interaction. While I think a tag on and tag off system would be better, I have had no problems with drivers. All transactions went very smoothly. I did get one free journey where the driver pressed the wrong button and issued a cash ticket, and one driver took about 3 seconds max looking at the screed, and then smiled at me and said 'first one!", but all in all I'm delighted with my leap. My bus fare is €1.65, so I'll save money come January, but the main bonus for me is that I don't have to carry change and I'm not left with a box full of change reciepts to be cashed in.

My one gripe is that my local shop doesn't sell or top-up Leap cards yet, altough they are listed on the payzone website. But I've topped up in 3 different shops in the city center with no hassle at all.

vienne86 · 20-12-2011 7:23pm

I mostly use a 30 day smart card for Dublin Bus as my regular fare is 2.30 each way. But I decided to buy a Leap card for occasional Luas journeys and short bus journeys. I tried to buy it in one shop, but they couldn't get their Payzone gadget to work. Today I managed to buy one, but only after two shop assistants had had a long discussion! When I asked, just for interest, if I could top it up on line, they said that they did not know (or care, I suspect). It's a pity buying the card is not always straight forward. I intend using it for the first time on Christmas Eve but am hopeful that the bus drivers will be up to speed on it.

[Deleted User] · 20-12-2011 7:27pm

vienne86 wrote: »

I mostly use a 30 day smart card for Dublin Bus as my regular fare is 2.30 each way. But I decided to buy a Leap card for occasional Luas journeys and short bus journeys. I tried to buy it in one shop, but they couldn't get their Payzone gadget to work. Today I managed to buy one, but only after two shop assistants had had a long discussion! When I asked, just for interest, if I could top it up on line, they said that they did not know (or care, I suspect). It's a pity buying the card is not always straight forward. I intend using it for the first time on Christmas Eve but am hopeful that the bus drivers will be up to speed on it.

I used mine last night on a 29A and 123, on both occasions the drivers knew what to do.

Posy · 20-12-2011 9:34pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

You queue up to get on, not to get off.

Well, each to their own I guess. I just don't see having to tag off the bus being too problematic to be honest since I pass the scanner on the way out anyway. Just my opinion though.

hmmm · 20-12-2011 11:53pm

How do I know whether my new card has the credit I bought (when I ordered the card) activated on it or whether I have to do something else?

If I choose "payzone" online (I think), I'm supposed to stroll up to the counter and say, errrr, what?

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 12:30am

hmmm wrote: »

How do I know whether my new card has the credit I bought (when I ordered the card) activated on it or whether I have to do something else?

If I choose "payzone" online (I think), I'm supposed to stroll up to the counter and say, errrr, what?

One of the hidden gems of the entire Leap Card introduction was the invitation to Top-Up Online...(I traded in my Luas Smart-Card)...

Off I went and topped up online,and was quite pleased at being able to put my ten-spot on it.....

However,when I next opened my mailbox,I find a missive from Leapcard telling me they've refunded me the money "due to problems with the process"....:rolleyes:

I now discover that ALL initial top-up's of new Leapcards must be done at a terminal or Luas Validator.....pity they did'nt make that clear from the get-go then innit

The entire Leap roll-out,soft as it is reputed to be,has a shambolic air about it,and most certainly does NOT reflect €55 MILLION of investment.

I'm concerned,but not actually surprised,at the low level of knowledge displayed by my pasengers...only a handful have bothered to actually get one and few even bother to listen as I attempt to stoke the flames of Leapery....This does not bode well....:(

cson · 21-12-2011 12:54am

On that last point; there's been little if any advertising of Leap - the first I heard of it [albeit 6 months ago] was here on boards. I haven't come across any Leap promotion anywhere outside of the new stickers on the wayfayers.

I'd imagine a majority of passengers are pretty 'wtf?' about it.

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 1:03am

cson wrote: »

On that last point; there's been little if any advertising of Leap - the first I heard of it [albeit 6 months ago] was here on boards. I haven't come across any Leap promotion anywhere outside of the new stickers on the wayfayers.

I'd imagine a majority of passengers are pretty 'wtf?' about it.

wtf...Wtf...WTF...is about the strength of it alright.

For something with such far reaching consequences for Dublin and it's citizens,and eventually,aspirationally the entire country,the Leap card almost appears apologetic in its introduction ?

Leap really did need a bit of chutzpah and serious marketing effort,a lá TfL and it's "Launch" of the New Bus for London....plenty of lead in,lead up and media foreplay to tease the punters and get them interested....

It seems as if the ITS people believe the far blunter 15% Fare Hike will do the marketing for them.....I remain unconvinced that this will be the case .

Posy · 21-12-2011 1:24am

cson wrote: »

On that last point; there's been little if any advertising of Leap - the first I heard of it [albeit 6 months ago] was here on boards. I haven't come across any Leap promotion anywhere outside of the new stickers on the wayfayers.

I don't think I would know of it's existence either if it wasn't for boards. Nobody I know, that I've spoken to about the upcoming fare hike, has had a clue what I'm talking about when I say they're only going up 5c if you have a Leap card. It's like Dublin bus, at least, are hoping people don't know about it so they can charge the higher cash fares.

markpb · 21-12-2011 9:58am

hmmm wrote: »

How do I know whether my new card has the credit I bought (when I ordered the card) activated on it or whether I have to do something else?

You have several options:
1. Go to any Luas TVM, put the card in the holder and it will display the balance
2. Go to any Payzone Leap shop and ask for a Leap card Balance Check.
3. Lastly, I think that when you board a Dublin Bus and put your card on the drivers ticket machine, the small display (facing you) will show the balance.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I now discover that ALL initial top-up's of new Leapcards must be done at a terminal or Luas Validator.....pity they did'nt make that clear from the get-go then innit

At least one of my Leap cards came with a very stern letter saying that the first top-up must be by TVM or Payzone. Perhaps yours went AWOL by accident?

cson wrote: »

On that last point; there's been little if any advertising of Leap - the first I heard of it [albeit 6 months ago] was here on boards. I haven't come across any Leap promotion anywhere outside of the new stickers on the wayfayers. I'd imagine a majority of passengers are pretty 'wtf?' about it.

Nope, it makes perfect sense. The card hasn't been fully launched yet, that won't happen until the new year. The current launch is, as Alex keeps saying, a soft launch to test it with slightly elevated numbers than the pilot had. No sane IT professional goes fully live with a project right before Christmas when everyone is in change freeze and people are taking holidays.

Just to add some context, look at the roll-out history of Oyster from Wikipedia (link):

Cards issued to the public for annual and monthly tickets (2003)
PAYG launched on London Underground, DLR (January 2004)
PAYG on buses (May 2004)
Daily price capping (February 2005)
Automatic top-up (September 2005)
Journey history for Pay as you go transactions available online (July 2006)

Pablo Sanchez · 21-12-2011 10:54am

Just to give me feeback on the Leap Card experience so far.

The card arrived two days after ordering, the pre paid credit was on the card and was readyto go, no need to go to to Payzone etc.

Used it on Dublin bus and the Dart without any problems, checked my online account and i appear to have been charged the correct amount for each journey.

As a very occasional user of public transport this is a dead handy service seeing as i dont have to work out what the cost of each journey in advance and i dont need to keep change for the purpose.

While i would rarely have anything good to say about the service they provide (for example my bus was 15 minutes late yesterday and i missed the DART i was planning to take!) but based upon my experience so far i would definitly reccommend others to take up the service.

I do have one question which someone may be able to help me out with. When using the card on the bus and you tag with the machine at the right of the door i understand that you get charged the maximum fare. Is this maximum fare based upon you taking the bus from the stop you are at to the terminus or is it based upon the maximum fare from the first stop in the route to the terminus?

vienne86 · 21-12-2011 10:58am

Having bought my Leap card from a Payzone yesterday, I registered it on line and was all set to try topping up on line, just for the hell of it. But I now realise I have to go to a Payzone to collect the credit I have bought on line. What on earth is the point of that? Isn't it easier just to buy it at the Payzone? I am a bus user, and mostly use smart cards, but just very occasionally use the Luas Dart, so I'll really have to use Payzone to top up. It is really disappointing and a right pain.

Dravokivich · 21-12-2011 11:24am

Pablo Sanchez wrote: »

I do have one question which someone may be able to help me out with. When using the card on the bus and you tag with the machine at the right of the door i understand that you get charged the maximum fare. Is this maximum fare based upon you taking the bus from the stop you are at to the terminus or is it based upon the maximum fare from the first stop in the route to the terminus?

It's a "Flat Fare." It's called "Maximum" because that's the highest charge you'll pay while on the bus.

Pablo Sanchez · 21-12-2011 11:31am

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's a "Flat Fare." It's called "Maximum" because that's the highest charge you'll pay while on the bus.

Thanks Dravokivich, so for example if one were to get the 46a from UCD and they were heading to the last stop on the route, they should get the card validated by the driver as using the machine they will pay the same fare as if they were travelling from Dun Laoghaire?

LXFlyer · 21-12-2011 12:02pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote: »

Thanks Dravokivich, so for example if one were to get the 46a from UCD and they were heading to the last stop on the route, they should get the card validated by the driver as using the machine they will pay the same fare as if they were travelling from Dun Laoghaire?

Travelling in which direction on the 46a?

Northbound or Southbound from UCD?

Pablo Sanchez · 21-12-2011 12:04pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Travelling in which direction on the 46a?

Northbound or Southbound from UCD?

Northbound, towords city centre.

Aard · 21-12-2011 12:06pm

@Pablo
I'm not sure of the stages/fares on the 46a, but I think you've got it right. Even if you board at the second-last stop before the terminus, the right hand validator will charge you €2.20 (going up to €2.40 in the new year apparently).

LXFlyer · 21-12-2011 12:09pm

That is correct. It will always charge EUR 2.20.

If you were going from UCD to Phoenix Park it is stage 66 going northbound. Phoenix Park is stage 81, which is 15 stages.

Cash fare = EUR 2.30
Leap on Driver Machine = EUR 2.30 (Having requested the fare)
Leap on Righthand Validator = EUR 2.20 (Automatic)

Post January 1:
Cash fare = EUR 2.65
Leap on Driver Machine = EUR 2.40 (Having requested the fare)
Leap on Righthand Validator = EUR 2.40 (Automatic)

Pablo Sanchez · 21-12-2011 12:10pm

Aard wrote: »

@Pablo
I'm not sure of the stages/fares on the 46a, but I think you've got it right. Even if you board at the second-last stop before the terminus, the right hand validator will charge you €2.20 (going up to €2.40 in the new year apparently).

Thanks guys.

That is a bit of a drag alright, but could be countered with the tag on tag off system mentioned before.

bk · 21-12-2011 12:51pm

markpb wrote: »

Nope, it makes perfect sense. The card hasn't been fully launched yet, that won't happen until the new year. The current launch is, as Alex keeps saying, a soft launch to test it with slightly elevated numbers than the pilot had.

That isn't true, the LEAP card has now been officially and fully launched.

Yes extra features will be added in the coming year, but it is still officially launched now.

markpb wrote: »

Just to add some context, look at the roll-out history of Oyster from Wikipedia (link):

Just to add more context, Oyster was the one of the first of such systems in the world, in one of the largest cities in the world and all the technology for it was developed from scratch.

LEAP is about the 50th such system to launch and is using off the shelf technology.

robd · 21-12-2011 1:49pm

bk wrote: »

That isn't true, the LEAP card has now been officially and fully launched.

You're hanging onto words a bit there.

It's very obvious that Leap Card was pushed out the door in the end, before it was ready. Meet the deadline regardless. Lots of problems reported here. Everyone hates the Dublin Bus system.

They're not advertising it cause they wouldn't be able to cope with the amount of complaints to their customer service team.

markpb · 21-12-2011 1:58pm

bk wrote: »

That isn't true, the LEAP card has now been officially and fully launched.

Not at all. Why do you think there's been no advertising about it, nothing in the papers and (with the exception of the promo at Heuston 2 weeks ago), nothing on TV?

LEAP is about the 50th such system to launch and is using off the shelf technology.

If you mean the cards and readers, yes but you're taking a very narrow view of the project. The physical card is one of the simplest parts of the project.

robd wrote: »

Everyone hates the Dublin Bus system.

From what I've heard, this is the way that DB were always planning to operate, it's not a decision made at the last minute to rush it out the door.

bk · 21-12-2011 2:20pm

markpb wrote: »

Not at all. Why do you think there's been no advertising about it, nothing in the papers and (with the exception of the promo at Heuston 2 weeks ago), nothing on TV?

It has been on TV, saw it on the news the day it launched.

It has also been discussed a lot on radio.

It definitely has been officially launched, no excuses for it's bad implementation.

AlekSmart · 21-12-2011 2:34pm

markpb wrote: »

From what I've heard, this is the way that DB were always planning to operate, it's not a decision made at the last minute to rush it out the door.

Correct,I think there are threads dating back to 2006/7 where the Driver interaction issue was clearly flagged and debated.

This is a consequence of the inability of the ITS to begin their programme from a unified fare regime,either voluntarily or imposed.

This remains the fundamental flaw in our native interpretation of INTEGRATION,we simply refused to take-on-board the level of systemic adjustment necessary BEFORE moving on to the actual ITS process.

What we are now attempting to do is chase the tails of a many headed hydra which will ultimately prove futile.

At some point ITS will have to address the basic conflict between a fully functional ITS and a kinda-sorta system which we now appear to have ?

goingnowhere · 21-12-2011 3:23pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

At some point ITS will have to address the basic conflict between a fully functional ITS and a kinda-sorta system which we now appear to have ?

The Dublin system is more than capable of doing single/multi modal rebates, single and multi mode capping on a 1 and 7 day basis. Thats significantly more than other cities have deployed

The problem with the Dublin system is the ridiculous turf war where everyone wants to track every cent of revenue compared to London where there is a formal contract structure which defines what each company gets.

So the second you introduce any kind of consumer friendly initiative on ITS its will hit the fare box. Now the argument is that the clever consumer (relatively rare) would already be in on the discounts with Travel 90, 30 day rambler etc but Leap brings it to the masses and does so without any effort on the consumer.

What none of the operators gets is the ease of use will result in a net increase in usage

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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