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Yes vote a vote for "Stabiltiy"

  • 25-07-2012 6:12am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭


    Well , what happened to this important vote of ours on Europe?. We were told that a yes vote would be a vote for "stability" oh ya they said jobs as well. Now we can't take every political campaign literally but is it time politicans are held accountable for what they promise in elections (they shouldn't be allowed to make unfounded promises on any side of the campaign). Europe is in severe trouble despite Ireland coming to it's rescue again with a yes vote. All those politicians that backed a YES vote should now be made to come out and apologies and even take a pay cut. Sure if they're allowed to get away with it why not throw in a YES vote will end world hunger and bring peace every where. I voted NO so as everyone understands what side I was on and not to muddy the waters.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    crusher000 wrote: »
    I voted NO so as everyone understands what side I was on and not to muddy the waters.
    I think we might have deduced that.

    The stability etc was to flow from our access to the ESM (which hasn't come into existence yet) and to protect us from much greater instability that a rejection was to have brought upon us.

    I don't remember anyone on the Yes side saying we were coming to the rescue of Europe - I think that's your own invention (and in a post were you deride false claims).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    I think the "stability" line was for our own rather than EU stability at large.

    I don't recall any politician saying something as grand as the latter.

    Did it work?
    Hindsight does not afford us that view, however I think Ireland's position is probably more stable than Greece & possibly Spains.


  • Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    What I was mostly trying to get across is that politicans shouldn't be allowed to get away with making promises/assertions in any campaign regardless of referendum or elections and what side they're on. Stability for the country won't be secured regardless of what we do when the whole European program is in jeopardy. So like it or not stability in Ireland won't be forth coming as proclaimed in last referendum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    I don't think any politician seriously claimed that a Yes in Ireland would guarantee that all problems would be solved. They did claim that a No would increase instability.
    Stability for the country won't be secured regardless of what we do when the whole European program is in jeopardy.

    This is stating the obvious, although you wouldn't think that with some posts in here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭BOHtox


    I'll just leave these here
    phpwjfVqEPM.jpg

    phpiiaM5PPM.jpg

    Lisbon+No+Poster.jpg

    phpm8bJmTPM1.jpg

    2012-05-28%2015.36.39.jpg

    2012-05-28%2015.37.21.jpg

    2012-05-28%2017.22.09.jpg

    2012-05-28%2017.19.59.jpg


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Where's the instability? There is still stability like before so I think it's obvious the vote worked and was correct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭Grimreaper666


    Where's the instability? There is still stability like before so I think it's obvious the vote worked and was correct.

    The economy is far from stable, if you believe that you're living in the clouds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    Where's the instability? There is still stability like before so I think it's obvious the vote worked and was correct.
    Are you living in a bubble ? Up on 450,000 people un employed. Front line services being cut in Health, Education and Defence. This is not the actions of a stable economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    BOHtox wrote: »
    I'll just leave these here
    phpwjfVqEPM.jpg

    phpiiaM5PPM.jpg

    Lisbon+No+Poster.jpg

    phpm8bJmTPM1.jpg

    2012-05-28%2015.36.39.jpg

    2012-05-28%2015.37.21.jpg

    2012-05-28%2017.22.09.jpg

    2012-05-28%2017.19.59.jpg
    If you read my post correctly I did say promises/assertions made by all sides Yes/No or regardless of referendum or elections. I stated that I voted No as to be honest and up front about which side I voted for in the referendum in case I was deemed to show bias towards one side or the other


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    BOHtox wrote: »
    I'll just leave these here













    I see you those.... and raise you.

    Ill just leave this here:

    Yes to Jobs - Yes to Lisbon.

    But yet, where are these jobs?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Heads the ball


    Europe and our own government lying to us? Nothing new here.

    Europe has been bad for Ireland. Deciding to enter Europe has almost been our worst decision ever. Our worst decision was bailing out the banks.

    But the problem is we are a desperate people; we can be led around by complete morons and if they tried they could probably get us to follow them over a cliff. They just dangle some BS rationale like "this is good for jobs" or some other tripe and we sign over our national soverignty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,026 ✭✭✭BKtje


    Are you honestly saying that Ireland would have been better off never joining the European Union (Ireland has no choice but to be part of Europe)?

    I'm in my late twenties and even I have seen the changes in my life time much of which is due to the EU (either directly or indirectly). If I watch shows from before I was born I'm shocked at how much of a backwater Ireland was before the EU and it's money/policies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭Spokes of Glory


    Europe has been bad for Ireland. Deciding to enter Europe has almost been our worst decision ever..

    Can you elaborate why, bearing in mind we have been members since 1973. What are all the negative consequences since then ?

    Entering the single currency and joining Europe were not the same thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,017 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Stability for the Elites


  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Heads the ball


    BKtje wrote: »
    If I watch shows from before I was born I'm shocked at how much of a backwater Ireland was before the EU and it's money/policies.

    Ha ha ha ha. Right. We are very different now arent we?


  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Heads the ball


    We have been good little pixies and did exactly as we were told.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    crusher000 wrote: »
    Well , what happened to this important vote of ours on Europe?. We were told that a yes vote would be a vote for "stability" oh ya they said jobs as well. Now we can't take every political campaign literally but is it time politicans are held accountable for what they promise in elections (they shouldn't be allowed to make unfounded promises on any side of the campaign). Europe is in severe trouble despite Ireland coming to it's rescue again with a yes vote. All those politicians that backed a YES vote should now be made to come out and apologies and even take a pay cut. Sure if they're allowed to get away with it why not throw in a YES vote will end world hunger and bring peace every where. I voted NO so as everyone understands what side I was on and not to muddy the waters.

    The treaty is still being ratified so it has not entered into force yet.

    Even the best laws need to be in force and usually a modicum of time to have passed before they start to have an impact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Heads the ball


    View wrote: »
    The treaty is still being ratified so it has not entered into force yet.

    Even the best laws need to be in force and usually a modicum of time to have passed before they start to have an impact.


    This Treaty was not the market panacea that it was heralded as. In fact its complete utter tripe. Its like asking a child to spank himself after he does something wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    This Treaty was not the market panacea that it was heralded as. In fact its complete utter tripe. Its like asking a child to spank himself after he does something wrong.

    Again a treaty that is not in force can't act as a panacea as "the markets" can only guess as to whether or not it will enter force.

    Your opinion of the treaty is a bit irrelevant since the referendum is over and was not supported by a majority of the electorate at the time. Most of them seem comfortable enough with their decision to date.


  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Heads the ball


    View wrote: »
    Again a treaty that is not in force can't act as a panacea

    You are wrong. The broad terms of the treaty were negotiated and announced to the markets in an effort to calm them.

    I think the majority of the electorate are not comfortable with it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    Europe has been bad for Ireland. Deciding to enter Europe has almost been our worst decision ever.
    .

    That post is among the most ridiculous I've seen in a while on boards.ie
    If we haddnt joined Europe when we did Ireland would have remained a backwater island with no infrastructure, no economy, no employment rights, no equality legislation, no healthcare, no serious education, and no future Our role in life would to eek out spuds from our gardens and emigrate.
    Ireland has benifeted from being in Europe and any saine person would realise that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭nacimroc



    Europe has been bad for Ireland. Deciding to enter Europe has almost been our worst decision ever. Our worst decision was bailing out the banks.

    ....and we sign over our national soverignty.

    And Ireland in the 80's without being heavily involved in Europe was better?? Sovereignty was fantastic back then with 3rd world public services, no roads, mass emmigration, tax rates >60% etc etc.

    You can be as proud and miserable as you like, but if I had a choice of Haughey or Hollande, well.....I'd really have to think about it!


    crusher000 wrote: »
    Are you living in a bubble ? Up on 450,000 people un employed. Front line services being cut in Health, Education and Defence. This is not the actions of a stable economy.

    Just because its bad doesn't mean it can't be worse. People on the no side of Europe seem to think the magic fix is to leave the Eurozone and go it alone! Jumping ship would make everything alot worse in the short term. Maybe your right and I would kind of be for it, but not hastily.


  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Heads the ball


    bbam wrote: »
    If we haddnt joined Europe when we did Ireland would have remained a backwater island with no infrastructure,

    So they built a few roads for us so we signed away our right to sovereignty
    bbam wrote: »
    no economy,

    We still dont have any real economy here - its all FDI/service based and we are clinging onto that by our fingertips because of our low tax rate
    bbam wrote: »
    no employment rights, no equality legislation, no healthcare, no serious education,

    Eh we dont need Europe for rights and legislation. If anything Europe has hurt our rights
    bbam wrote: »
    and no future Our role in life would to eek out spuds from our gardens and emigrate.

    In some parts of the country, this is still the case


  • Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    Europe has been good to us but it hasn't come for free. Always with the European funded roads, agriculture etc etc. But Europe has been the receiver of benefits from Ireland too. Our vast fishing stocks that left our own fishing industry in the poor place. The irony of it all is they'll probably fine us for not protecting fish levels when they're gone and it was other European Countries that blitzed our seas. But I diverse from the op so apologies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Heads the ball


    crusher000 wrote: »
    Europe has been good to us but it hasn't come for free. Always with the European funded roads, agriculture etc etc. But Europe has been the receiver of benefits from Ireland too. Our vast fishing stocks that left our own fishing industry in the poor place. The irony of it all is they'll probably fine us for not protecting fish levels when they're gone and it was other European Countries that blitzed our seas. But I diverse from the op so apologies.


    If I remember correctly Fintan O'Toole or John Waters (I beleive) actually crunched the numbers on the pros and cons for Europe.

    He came to the conclusion that we were actually worse off (ie the negatives outweighted the pro's). So the roads didnt come free as you say. But not alone did they not come free - we are actually worse off as a result.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    You are wrong. The broad terms of the treaty were negotiated and announced to the markets in an effort to calm them.

    Announcing something and getting it ratified and into force are two seperate things. A treaty can be announced yet either be rejected by a parliament and/or ruled unconstitutional by one or more Supreme Courts and hence fail to enter into force. The markets can only engage in "best guesses" at the results of such decisions as they are outside their control.
    I think the majority of the electorate are not comfortable with it.

    The results of the referendum would indicate otherwise. There is no indication the electorate want to re-visit the decision.

    You seem to be confusing your dislike for the electorate's decision and the electorate's opinion of their decision.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    The economy is far from stable, if you believe that you're living in the clouds.
    crusher000 wrote: »
    Are you living in a bubble ? Up on 450,000 people un employed. Front line services being cut in Health, Education and Defence. This is not the actions of a stable economy.

    I never said it was stable. However we are in the same position as we were before the vote, we have remained the same. If there was a sudden down turn then you could claim instability however since there has no little no change I'd call that stability.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    crusher000 wrote: »
    What I was mostly trying to get across is that politicans shouldn't be allowed to get away with making promises/assertions in any campaign regardless of referendum or elections and what side they're on. Stability for the country won't be secured regardless of what we do when the whole European program is in jeopardy. So like it or not stability in Ireland won't be forth coming as proclaimed in last referendum.

    It might be better to start a thread on that because the OP doesn't really say that clearly at all. I'm not sure this thread has much longer to go as it seems to be wandering away from your topic.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Heads the ball


    View wrote: »
    Announcing something and getting it ratified and into force are two seperate things. A treaty can be announced yet either be rejected by a parliament and/or ruled unconstitutional by one or more Supreme Courts and hence fail to enter into force. The markets can only engage in "best guesses" at the results of such decisions as they are outside their control.



    The results of the referendum would indicate otherwise. There is no indication the electorate want to re-visit the decision.

    You seem to be confusing your dislike for the electorate's decision and the electorate's opinion of their decision.

    No I think you are confusing what the electorate want. You said a couple of posts ago "the majoirty of the electorate were happy with it"

    I think very few people were happy with it and they just voted out of fear and sheepishness

    The negative consequences of the Treaty wont really be felt until
    1: We want to run a deficit or
    2: We lose our ESM contribution when one of the borrowers goes belly up and defaults

    Other than that its just another erosion of the meager soverignty which we had left


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    No I think you are confusing what the electorate want.

    I understand what "Yes" means. You are the one arguing that it means "No, but..".
    You said a couple of posts ago "the majoirty of the electorate were happy with it"

    I think very few people were happy with it and they just voted out of fear and sheepishness

    Ah, the old "The electorate must be stupid or afraid" to vote differently to me argument.

    You can point out the recent mass demonstrations where the electorate have demanded that we refuse to ratify after all, can't you?
    The negative consequences of the Treaty wont really be felt until
    1: We want to run a deficit or
    2: We lose our ESM contribution when one of the borrowers goes belly up and defaults

    Other than that its just another erosion of the meager soverignty which we had left

    The dire consequences scenario - I suppose they"ll happen around the time we"ll be forced to join NATO (as claimed first in the 1972 referendum on membership), introduce euthanasia and be mass-conscripted...

    Still, no fear mongering in any of those claims, right? :)


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