PED

Da Shins Kelly · 10-06-2013 1:40pm #1

So, following on from the French Open thread, because I think it's an interesting discussion, are performance enhancing drugs an overlooked problem in tennis? I'm not really interested in pointing the finger at specific individuals or making unfounded speculation, but I think the issue itself is one worth talking about. I'm not too familiar with the regularity of drug testing or even the history of drug usage in tennis compared to other sports, but I'd be interested in hearing more about what others think of it.

Giruilla · 10-06-2013 2:05pm

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

So, following on from the French Open thread, because I think it's an interesting discussion, are performance enhancing drugs an overlooked problem in tennis? I'm not really interested in pointing the finger at specific individuals or making unfounded speculation, but I think the issue itself is one worth talking about. I'm not too familiar with the regularity of drug testing or even the history of drug usage in tennis compared to other sports, but I'd be interested in hearing more about what others think of it.

If anyone with an open mind is genuinely interested I'd recommend a good read of this blog http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ie/

and watch this podcast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0
(It's all good, but gets very interesting around the 34 min mark)

Anyone who doesn't want their idealised image of tennis to be shattered maybe best to avoid.

transylman · 10-06-2013 10:11pm

So much of what we are seeing is tennis right now was just not possible a few years ago. Players hitting their physical peaks in their 30s, hard-hitting 5 set long baseline games with neither player showing signs of fatigue, the same player going on to another 5 set game days later completely fresh.

Then, even with the leniency of the testing regime, you have all this odd behaviour from players. Hiding from testers when they come to your house. Mysterious injuries that flare up seemingly at random, only to quickly disappear with no apparent affect on the players ability.

The sport desparately needs regular random off-season blood and urine testing. If a player misses a test it needs to be made public. If a player fails a first test it needs to be made public. Test results need to be made available to the public. The system needs to be made completely transparent. Its the only way of ending the current farce.

Giruilla · 10-06-2013 10:49pm

For me after listening to Victor Conte talk about the methods and his detailed knowledge of the drugs used, testing methods and how to beat the system.. I'm under no illusions as to what is going on in tennis and so many other major sports. (Not to mention him naming tennis players individually).

Its not at the lance armstrong 5/6 years ago stage for me.. the is he - isn't he any more. My eyes are completely opened as to how it's going on, and more importantly from a philosophical/psychological point of view why it's going on. The stakes have just become too huge.. massive massive money contracts, prizes, sponsors. Its farcical to think it isn't. If you hear one players doing it at zero risk, zero chance of equal benefit to exposing cheaters as to beating them at their own game, why would you not do it. Then you look at the associations in charge shambles of drug testing systems and say to yourself.. why aren't they doing more? Well, because they have virtually zero invested interest in doing so.

By far the biggest three illusions people in love with specific sports have are these:
1) Doping and getting away with it is hard to do. - It isn't.
2) Doping has no benefits in 'skill' sports as technique is what wins you games. - To put it as simply as possible, when do you have better technique.. at the start of a game or at the end? Imagine playing the whole game like you do at the start.
3) The sports icons are heroes and honest people. - The media portrays them as this as it's in their interest to do so, and risky and costly not to. What else do you really know about them?

I've read up a lot about this subject, the history, the patterns. You look at the two winners of French Open this year and honestly can't help but laugh and at the same time be shocked that so many people don't care whats going on. Its a moral subject more than anything and important to society, especially as these people are portrayed as role models day in day out in every country in the world.

pconn062 · 10-06-2013 11:49pm

My initial suspicion in this area was aroused when two Italian female players (who I won't name but I'm sure everyone can guess) suddenly leaped up the rankings, playing the best tennis of their lives in the later years of their careers. This is highly unusual, am I saying this is down to doping? No. But should it be questioned and investigated? Absolutely.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 10-06-2013 11:59pm

pconn062 wrote: »

My initial suspicion in this area was aroused when two Italian female players (who I won't name but I'm sure everyone can guess) suddenly leaped up the rankings, playing the best tennis of their lives in the later years of their careers. This is highly unusual, am I saying this is down to doping? No. But should it be questioned and investigated? Absolutely.

One Italian player who had links to a certain doctor involved in certain other cases....

To be fair though there's a lot of inconsistency in tennis, especially in the women's game. I mean Sharapova and Williams are the only two that have been at the top of the game consistently for the past ten years. It's not that hard to believe that every now and then someone decides to be more dedicated, more professional and sees the results pay off for a while. Is it?

pconn062 · 11-06-2013 12:11am

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

One Italian player who had links to a certain doctor involved in certain other cases....

To be fair though there's a lot of inconsistency in tennis, especially in the women's game. I mean Sharapova and Williams are the only two that have been at the top of the game consistently for the past ten years. It's not that hard to believe that every now and then someone decides to be more dedicated, more professional and sees the results pay off for a while. Is it?

Nope not at all, I totally agree with you on that. Like you said in another post (I think), I think the problem lies further down the rankings. But the issue is when these players climb up the rankings and suddenly start climbing up the rankings and affecting outcomes of tournaments, possibly due to the assistance of PED's. Tennis just doesn't have the necessary checks (at the moment) in place to ease the worries of many supporters and fans of the sport.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 11-06-2013 12:18am

But then what is considered "performance enhancing".

There was a story for a while that Djokovic had one of those giant egg things that he climbed into after a match which aided his recovery. Surely putting him at an advantage over his next opponent who probably doesn't have a giant egg?

Then there's all the gels and powders they're pumping into themselves on court. Why isn't simple re hydration enough to keep them going? You never saw Pete Sampras sucking on a tube of gel mid match, makes sense that they can go for longer now that they have all that stuff.

I agree that the drug testing should be more open and transparent, ideally players would be tested after every win, like they did at the Olympics, but I don't think the fact that the sport has changed has to automatically mean everyone is on drugs.

I mean years ago tennis players didn't actually have to be that physically fit. They just hit the ball around in practice, maybe did a bit of cardio now and then. Now they're in the gym every day, they have special diets and whole teams of trainers and physios travelling with them. Which raises another point. A player way down the rankings is probably only earning enough to keep a coach with them, if even, they get one or two good results, or a sponsorship deal, or their federation decides to invest in them and all of a sudden they can maybe have a full time physio too, or a masseuse, or even buy a big giant egg. Obviously that's going to help them maintain their new found good form.

walshb · 11-06-2013 11:25am

Giruilla wrote: »

For me after listening to Victor Conte talk about the methods and his detailed knowledge of the drugs used, testing methods and how to beat the system.. I'm under no illusions as to what is going on in tennis and so many other major sports. (Not to mention him naming tennis players individually).

Its not at the lance armstrong 5/6 years ago stage for me.. the is he - isn't he any more. My eyes are completely opened as to how it's going on, and more importantly from a philosophical/psychological point of view why it's going on. The stakes have just become too huge.. massive massive money contracts, prizes, sponsors. Its farcical to think it isn't. If you hear one players doing it at zero risk, zero chance of equal benefit to exposing cheaters as to beating them at their own game, why would you not do it. Then you look at the associations in charge shambles of drug testing systems and say to yourself.. why aren't they doing more? Well, because they have virtually zero invested interest in doing so.

By far the biggest three illusions people in love with specific sports have are these:
1) Doping and getting away with it is hard to do. - It isn't.
2) Doping has no benefits in 'skill' sports as technique is what wins you games. - To put it as simply as possible, when do you have better technique.. at the start of a game or at the end? Imagine playing the whole game like you do at the start.
3) The sports icons are heroes and honest people. - The media portrays them as this as it's in their interest to do so, and risky and costly not to. What else do you really know about them?

I've read up a lot about this subject, the history, the patterns. You look at the two winners of French Open this year and honestly can't help but laugh and at the same time be shocked that so many people don't care whats going on. Its a moral subject more than anything and important to society, especially as these people are portrayed as role models day in day out in every country in the world.

I agree with a lot of what you say. But also, I do believe that what tennis players are doing today is NOT somehow beyond normal for them. So they play 5 set matches, sometimes on consecutive days. Big deal. Like I said, plenty of rest throughout the matches as well as the day's recovery. I don't believe that they need PEDs to do what they are doing. Not saying they aren't taking them, but making such definite claims regarding Nadal, as you are doing, is wrong.

And, comparing them to eras past is irrelevant. Today and recently theses players have benefitted from progression, diet, technology, professionalism. Almost any human endeavor progresses with time and knowledge and methods. They are training harder, faster, longer. Money and big money is driving this. Yes, drugs is also driving it. But it's not a necessity.

walshb · 11-06-2013 11:32am

Giruilla wrote: »

2) Doping has no benefits in 'skill' sports as technique is what wins you games. - To put it as simply as possible, when do you have better technique.. at the start of a game or at the end? Imagine playing the whole game like you do at the start.
3) The sports icons are heroes and honest people. - The media portrays them as this as it's in their interest to do so, and risky and costly not to. What else do you really know about them?
.

These two points I absolutely agree with. But, do you really think what Nadal is doing (as regards stamina) is superhuman? I don't. I think a really fit and naturally fit and talented athlete can do it without PEDs. If yo think not, then you may as well label any extremely fit person as a PED user.

Giruilla · 11-06-2013 5:04pm

walshb wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you say. But also, I do believe that what tennis players are doing today is NOT somehow beyond normal for them. So they play 5 set matches, sometimes on consecutive days. Big deal. Like I said, plenty of rest throughout the matches as well as the day's recovery. I don't believe that they need PEDs to do what they arwe doing. Not saying they aren't taking them, but making such definite claims regarding Nadal, as you are doing, is wrong.

And, comparing them to eras past is irrelevant. Today and recently theses players have benefitted from progression, diet, technology, professionalism. Almost any human endeavor progresses with time and knowledge and methods. They are training harder, faster, longer. Money and big money is driving this. Yes, drugs is also driving it. But it's not a necessity.

Theres no doubting that improvements have been made in natural sports science and sports psychology like you say. But they will NEVER compare to the benefits than can be gained from using PED's like EPO and HGH.

I've formed an opinion on Nadal.. theres nothing 'wrong' about it. His prolonged absenses, mysterious injuries, and incredible fitness and stamina immediately after these absences and injuries are factors that make me fall down on one side of suspicion. Also his nationality (sorry) - Spain is pretty much seen as the doping capital of the world these days.

Then theres this years womens champion - age 31. She ran to her panic room and locked herself inside when the drugs testers called around...

Giruilla · 11-06-2013 5:05pm

walshb wrote: »

But, do you really think what Nadal is doing (as regards stamina) is superhuman? I don't. I think a really fit and naturally fit and talented athlete can do it without PEDs.

Thats irrelevant and wholly comes down to beliefs.

walshb · 11-06-2013 8:03pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Also his nationality (sorry) - Spain is pretty much seen as the doping capital of the world these days.
..

Well, Ireland is seen by many as a nation of drunks. Should we all be labeled as drunks? For me the nationality reason you cite is poor form.

I just can't see anything from Nadal that is so special that would have me believe that it "must" be down to PEDs.

garv123 · 11-06-2013 9:37pm

There are much more physically demanding sports out there than tennis. people can train hard and get physically fit enough for tough matches without PED's

The stats below are interesting as to how much time the ball is actually in play in a 3 hour 18 minute game of tennis. Players in tennis get plenty of breaks and time to catch their breath between serves.

Tennis vs. Badminton

Statistics don't lie. The speed and the stamina required for badminton are far greater than for any other racket sport. At the 1985 All England (Tennis) Championships, Boris Becker defeated Kevin Curren 6-3, 6-7, 7-6, 6-4. At the 1985 World Badminton Championships in Calgary, Canada, Han Jian of China defeated Morten Frost of Denmark, 14-18, 15-10, 15-8. The following is a statistical comparison of those matches.

Tennis

Badminton
Time:

3 hrs & 18 mins

1 hr & 16 mins
Ball/Shuttle in Play:

18 mins

37 mins
Match Intensity*:

-9 percent

48 percent
Rallies:

299

146
Shots:

1,004

1,972
Shots Per Rally:----

3.4

13.5
Distance Covered:

2 miles

4 miles
* The actual time the ball/shuttle was in flight, divided by the length of the match.
Note that the badminton players competed for half the time, yet ran twice as far and hit nearly twice as many shots.

A soccer player travels 7 to 9 miles in a game.
A rugby player is about 6 or so and they're getting thumped and belted and the wind knocked out of them.. Are they all using PED to keep going?

Giruilla · 12-06-2013 9:58am

walshb wrote: »

Well, Ireland is seen by many as a nation of drunks. Should we all be labeled as drunks? For me the nationality reason you cite is poor form.

Cringe... not that that statement really warrants a response but how about a recent spanish courts decision to destroy blood bags of doctor fuentes, who also said he would name all athletes who he worked with and identify the bags - which he claimed to have included tennis stars and football stars.
How about doping not even being illegal in Spain until as recently as 2006?
How about Spains recent domination in other sports such as football, where the national team and barcelona are playing football like 'track and field athletes'?
How about lance armstrongs decision to move his team from Nice to Girona Spain?
Its for reasons like these and numerous others why Spain is seen as a 'doping free-for-all' and why seemingly super stamina super strength Spanish athletes like Nadal are currently under the spotlight.

walshb wrote: »

I just can't see anything from Nadal that is so special that would have me believe that it "must" be down to PEDs.

OK.

Giruilla · 12-06-2013 10:14am

Giruilla wrote: »

2) Doping has no benefits in 'skill' sports as technique is what wins you games. - To put it as simply as possible, when do you have better technique.. at the start of a game or at the end? Imagine playing the whole game like you do at the start.

walshb wrote: »

These two points I absolutely agree with.

Nadal yesterday "I don't think doping in tennis makes much sense."
http://www.marca.com/2013/06/11/en/more_sports/1370937029.html

walshb · 12-06-2013 3:25pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Nadal yesterday "I don't think doping in tennis makes much sense."
http://www.marca.com/2013/06/11/en/more_sports/1370937029.html

See, he can't be doping if he's saying stuff like this.:P

transylman · 26-06-2013 12:34am

If you are wondering how someone can go from dominating in and winning a tournament, to getting knocked out in the first round two weeks later, you might find what Victor Conte has to say at 58:40 something to consider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0

Giruilla · 26-06-2013 10:00am

transylman wrote: »

If you are wondering how someone can go from dominating in and winning a tournament, to getting knocked out in the first round two weeks later, you might find what Victor Conte has to say at 58:40 something to consider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0

Not coming off the juice quick enough? Hitting a down period the weeks directly after peaking from a regime? Not having enough 'out of tournament' time to juice up?

mikemcdeedy100 · 27-06-2013 12:50am

of course tennis has a big problem

testing is lax

and the top players have the $$$ and contacts for good programs

garv123 · 27-06-2013 7:40am

All those new people beating all these lads that are all meant to be using PED must be using better stuff

Giruilla · 01-07-2013 12:32pm

Great article about Nadal by who seems to have a respectable opinion on tennis - Director of Tennis Operations at all Mayfair clubs, tennis journalist.

Well, there are just as many Nadal rumours out there. I sat in a locker room a few years back and listened to three coaches discussing the steroids that Nadal was taking. One of the coaches, who was from Columbia, said he saw Nadal ingesting some sort of PEDs prior to a workout session in Monte Carlo. I know this is all hearsay, but enough people in the know have come forward to say they’ve seen it – I believe this will all come out one day – just like it did for Lance Armstrong.

Remember Martina Hingis and her accelerated retirement? This was sped up in order to protect her illustrious character as one of the game’s greatest players of all time because rumours persisted she was caught using drugs. A ban for a month or two for drug use would have ruined the legacy of this superstar athlete and all of her monumental accomplishments. The WTA tour couldn’t afford this stain on its reputation when the tour’s popularity was at an all-time low. So the two sides came to an agreement – an early retirement was the only option. Any other decision could have been catastrophic.

Why do you think Nadal skipped last year’s Olympics? Do you really believe it was due to his bum knee? I don’t!
The Olympics have the most stringent testing procedures known to man. Nadal, and his surrounding team made a wise decision to take the high road prior to this global event. They knew they couldn’t mask the PED’s in London with so much visibility during the Olympics. They realized they can beat an ATP sanctioned event but not an ITF sanctioned event where the testing is quadrupled. Rafa, like Lance, has beaten many tests. But he knew it was just a matter of time, if he put himself out there in front of the drug hounds at the Olympic Games, that he’d be caught.

Nadal’s frame, prior to the layoff, was massive. Now he looks half the size. When he came back to the tour for his first event in south America in February I did not recognize him. What can be the answer for such a drastic reduction in muscle mass? The simple answer is Performance Enhancing Drugs. Nadal was on them, and now he’s not.

Finally, and maybe most interestingly, is Nadal’s habit of performing brilliantly in the slams and 1000 level events worldwide, and taking time off between these events in order to rest. Rather than struggle through these lesser events, he chooses not to play. Having regular gaps (nobody does this better than Nadal) from major to major is often seen as an indicator of an athlete following a specific cycle in the use of certain stimulants.

http://oncourt.ca/?p=6329

Nice to see someone from the tennis world having the guts to talk openly about this.

Halloween Jack · 04-07-2013 1:44pm

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/23152605

Anybody who thinks those numbers stack up needs their head examined. 60 odd out of competition blood tests against cyclings 3000, and people wonder why cyclists keep getting caught?

If you saw the same amount of testing that's done in cycling or athletics in football or tennis you'd catch a lot more cheats. These supposed clean sports have just designed completely beatable systems.

Tommy_Pickles · 04-07-2013 2:56pm

It crossed my mind that Nadal and Djockovic could possibly used them.

Djockovic was 3rd best for so long, didn't think he'd be great. But then all of a sudden he became an animal. Could be just down to training but you never know.

Nadal then, amazing player. But he has faltered? PED can lead to burnout, which could look like Nadal!

Might be interesting to see if Djockovic burns out too.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 10:58am

The mystery and suspicions deepen further with Serena

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-2678542/Mystery-Serena-Williams-Wimbledon-meltdown-deepens.html

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 12:43pm

Not sure why this is in the PED thread rather than the Wimbledon thread. The Daily Mail are a joke of a paper and are very clearly putting 2 and 2 together and making 7.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 12:52pm

I don't see them clearly putting any definitive statement to what they believe in that article.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 1:00pm

Giruilla wrote: »

I don't see them clearly putting any definitive statement to what they believe in that article.

Then why did you put in in here? Are you putting 2 and 2 together and getting 7?

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 1:26pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Then why did you put in in here? Are you putting 2 and 2 together and getting 7?

Because it references her missing a drugs test by hiding in a panic room as an example of her previous mysterious behavior.
Now she's on court looking completely out of it.

What do you mean by getting 7?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 1:32pm

Adding 2 and 2 and getting anything other than 4.

Halloween Jack · 03-07-2014 1:33pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Because it references her missing a drugs test by hiding in a panic room as an example of her previous mysterious behavior.
Now she's on court looking completely out of it.

What do you mean by getting 7?

Don't know how she escaped a ban for that. Whatever story she concocted is meaningless as at the end of the day no sample was collected.

Miss a test and you are guilty of a doping control violation, much like the Serbian bloke last year who's name escapes me.

PED

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