Can I claim unfair dismissal?

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 2:54pm #1

I'm going to be rather brief with this, but I'm wondering do I qualify for unfair dismissal?

I worked as a canteen assistant for a major company from October 2012- April 4th 2014.
To sum it up quickly, I had a set role in work which would be doing deliveries and serving customers. In the unit, I have done all jobs, from coffee stations, kitchen porter, kitchen assistant, floor staff and wash up staff and I was the only staff member who could do this range of jobs.
However, One day I had notified my manager that I would be attending college in September (My big mistake) and he even congratulated me.
A few days pass, I had been absent (explained) for one day and returned to work the next day, to be told by a chef (not my manger or supervisor) that my role had changed and that I would now be in the pot wash.

This change was not known to me as the roster had been sent a little over 8 hours before my shift. I had asked to speak with my manager and he had avoided me for the day. All other staff members asked me what I had been getting punished for as my manager had swore to me before Christmas that he would never put me in the pot wash again as I had "done my time" (over 9 months to be exact). Eventually, I had a meeting with himself and the head chef in which he told me that the pot wash was the only place for me and it would be for "A bit". When I asked if the length of a "bit" would be until I leave for college in September and then he refused to answer verbally. He then said I have a choice as to either do pot wash or "walk". I said, that day would be my last day in work then.

My question is, do I qualify for unfair dismissal?
I'm trying to get Jobseekers currently but I can't afford to wait 9 weeks (i'm 6 weeks in) as I need the money to A) survive and

try to find another job. I have exhausted all funds that I have by paying transport to and from Dublin and have been actively seeking work everyday since.
Thank you for the help.

MOD-NOTE: Please remember that we cannot give you legal advice here. We can discuss what might apply, and we can give you feedback about how your actions look to us. But for legal advice, like whether your situation would count as unfair or con-dis or whatever, you need to consult a lawyer. (Apologies for not having pointed this out earlier, and thanks to the other mod who suggested that I add this. I've put it here, rather than in a new post a page down, so that other posters see it.) Mrs O'Bumble

bumper234 · 20-05-2014 2:57pm

You were not dismissed though you chose to leave.

problemchimp · 20-05-2014 3:04pm

As Bumper says, you left of your own choice. Maybe you could examine if it was "constructive dismissal".

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 3:05pm

bumper234 wrote: »

You were not dismissed though you chose to leave.

So essentially I need to wait out those 9 weeks then?
There's no other way about it?

tightropetom · 20-05-2014 3:07pm

Taken from:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html

Worth a read... Important bit below - but read the whole thing in the link

You have to have been employed for 12 months I think.

The fact of dismissal

You must have been dismissed in order to bring a claim. The one exception to this is the concept of constructive dismissal where you resign but claim that your employer's conduct towards you forced your resignation.

If your employer disputes that a dismissal actually took place, you will have to establish that it did. Only then will your claim continue to the next stage of deciding whether the dismissal was fair, which is a matter for your employer to prove.

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-05-2014 3:07pm

You need to be there, 2 years for unfair dismissal. Your there 18 months plus you left.

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 3:08pm

problemchimp wrote: »

As Bumper says, you left of your own choice. Maybe you could examine if it was "constructive dismissal".

I'm pretty terrible at this stuff. Any chance you could explain to me a bit better?
I've had a lot of trouble with management up there over taxes and other things so I did not feel like I left to better myself I feel like it was the only choice I could take and would not be forced out a little bit later

tightropetom · 20-05-2014 3:09pm

Mikayla Old-fashioned Hurricane wrote: »

You need to be there, 2 years for unfair dismissal. Your there 18 months plus you left.

"Normally you must have at least 12 months' continuous service with your employer in order to bring a claim for unfair dismissal" from citizen's advice website.

Also, leaving by choice may be considered constructive dismissal depending on the employer's behaviour that led to his leaving.

stevenmu · 20-05-2014 3:10pm

I'm not in any way an expert on this. What I can say is that unfair dismissal is when they dismiss you with out a valid reason and following a valid process.

When you voluntarily leave because of conditions, that may count as "constructive dismissal". This applies if the employer deliberately made conditions so bad or unreasonable that you were forced to leave. I'd guess that it wouldn't apply in your case because I would think that pot washing would be a reasonable duty for your job, but really only an employment law expert could tell you for sure.

Mrs OBumble · 20-05-2014 3:10pm

What you might be able to claim is constructive dismissal.

Really you need legal advice about this - guessing you cannot afford this - maybe try the Family Law Advisory Centre.

Are you looking for student type jobs, ie just for the summer? This is probably the best place for you to focus. Have you worked all your contacts, eg friends, friends-of-friends, friends of parents, etc?

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 3:17pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What you might be able to claim is constructive dismissal.

Really you need legal advice about this - guessing you cannot afford this - maybe try the Family Law Advisory Centre.

Are you looking for student type jobs, ie just for the summer? This is probably the best place for you to focus. Have you worked all your contacts, eg friends, friends-of-friends, friends of parents, etc?

I am literally trying to get anything. My home page is the fás jobseeker website. I constantly check for new jobs on jobs.ie and companies individual site as well as emailing companies who don't have any active opportunities. Also to add, I'm traveling to Dublin from Leixlip at least 4 days a week to hand out 30 cv's plus each time. I'd say a lot of it is down to playing the waiting game but I really am trying. As a smoker, I've been prioritizing days of handing out cv's rather than a box of tobacco. I've exhausted all my contacts and have even tried getting work on a family friends bog in Galway.

Student jobs, night jobs or any job will really put me back on my feet at this stage.

Deagol · 20-05-2014 3:22pm

You leave a job because you don't like what you were asked to do? And now you are stuck for money? And you want to blame someone else and sue for it?

I'm sorry, but I find it very hard to understand how you could claim for constructive dismissal.

sligoface · 20-05-2014 3:40pm

You were somewhat unfairly treated but not unfairly dismissed. You were never dismissed at all becausr unfortunately you did exactly what they wanted. Lesson learned: never make your employer aware that you are moving on beyond the notice period in your contract. Irish workplaces are full of begrudgers and spiteful managers who get satisfaction out of screwing peoples plans up like that. I've heard of people who have given their notice be told, 'Don't bother working the two weeks.', knowing that other frontline staff would have to take up the extra work or hours, just to screw the employee who is leaving out of two weeks wages.

This isn't like America where attempts to do better for yourself are more likely to be encouraged by all. Your manager wanted to stick it to you for thinking you are too good to be working in a kitchen and swanning off to college and thinks you will half-@ss it from now on, and the absence confirmed that in his mind, so he was going to make you do the washup. I think it was great to stand up for yourself and walk but personal pride doesn't pay the bills. I've walked for similar reasons and you learn that standing up for what you think is fair comes at a price. You may regret the decision at times but it will work out in the end. So don't panic. Make your claim at the dole office and explain what happened. You may not get hit with the 9 weeks thing at all.

The best revenge would have been to just do the washup with a smile on your face because you knew you only had a few months left and you would be moving on to bigger and better things. Now I know that's easier said than done as washup is effin horrible, I've done it myself.

If you had a medical issue, like a skin condition that was aggravated by soap or something, that might be looked at as a better reason for leaving than just hating the work. You can't claim unfair dismissal so find out what entitlements, stamps etc you have, fill out the forms and try to get the dole while you look for work is all you can do now.

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 3:41pm

Deagol wrote: »

You leave a job because you don't like what you were asked to do? And now you are stuck for money? And you want to blame someone else and sue for it?

I'm sorry, but I find it very hard to understand how you could claim for constructive dismissal.

Well if I gave you the full story, I'm sure your opinion would change in an instance. This is simply one of the smallest problems, I've had there. I've been bullied by two managers, I've been called a traveler, have been nicknamed a dogs name by other employees who find it funny, I had gotten my hours reduced from 39 hours to 20 over one days absence for going to my own grandfathers funeral. On top of that, I have paid all my taxes since working there which averages at 35-40 p.w. and yet revenue hasn't seen a penny of them, which I have only found out in the last few days which also happened to 3 other employees from the same canteen, who all got "let go" or forced out, conveniently when they asked management about revenue. So before you try make me fit the stereotype of a 'dole troll', you'd probably want to hear the other side to it first. I take pride in my work no matter what the task and I'm proud of that fact. Get off your high horse mate....

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 3:52pm

sligoface wrote: »

You were somewhat unfairly treated but not unfairly dismissed. You were never dismissed at all becausr unfortunately you did exactly what they wanted. Lesson learned: never make your employer aware that you are moving on beyond the notice period in your contract. Irish workplaces are full of begrudgers and spiteful managers who get satisfaction out of screwing peoples plans up like that. I've heard of people who have given their notice be told, 'Don't bother working the two weeks.', knowing that other frontline staff would have to take up the extra work or hours, just to screw the employee who is leaving out of two weeks wages.

This isn't America, where attempts to do better for yourself are encouraged. Your manager wanted to stick it to you for thinking you are too good to be working in a kitchen and swanning off to college and thinks you will half-@ss it from now on, and the absence confirmed that in his mind, so he was going to make you do the washup. I think it was great to stand up for yourself and walk but personal pride doesn't pay the bills. I've walked for similar reasons and you learn that standing up for what you think is fair comes at a price. You may regret the decision at times but it will work out in the end. So don't panic. Make your claim at the dole office and explain what happened. You may not get hit with the 9 weeks thing at all.

The best revenge would have been to just do the washup with a smile on your face because you knew you only had a few months left and you would be moving on to bigger and better things. Now I know that's easier said than done as washup is effin horrible, I've done it myself.

If you had a medical issue, like a skin condition that was aggravated by soap or something, that might be looked at as a better reason for leaving than just hating the work.

Brilliant response and I genuinely appreciate the positivity

I actually don't mind working in a wash up or on a carousel as I'm actually quite fast at it, and I would be the go to guy if there's a machine failure and generally I can solve the issue. The problem is that I've worked in a pot wash for over 9 months there and had been promised before Christmas that If I covered someone for a week then i would never have to do it again.
It was nice taking the pride from this one and showing that I can speak up for myself. If I had stuck it out I honestly would see another issue arising as w have a very high turnover rate, so it's actually quite an achievement that I have lasted so long. I have learned my lesson about letting management know of future endeavors and I had only notified him out of respect, but I soon found out that is not always a mutual thing. I'd say i'll be playing the waiting game on the dole, but fingers crossed I can get something before then as I can't stand feeling so useless. There's only so many times I can clean and maintain my house.

Going back to a medical issue I have very bad scarring on my back (burned by a pot of hot boiling water on the stove when 6 months old) that covers from my shoulders all the way to my lower back, which I believe has been causing me so minor problems over they years. Seeing as I would be straining my back by bending over for 8 hours plus per day, it really does but me in some pain, where I'd need at least an hour lying down after work each day just for my back to rest up. Anyways, I'll keep the head up high and hopefully will be back on the front lines soon.

sligoface · 20-05-2014 3:53pm

Niall558 wrote: »

Well if I gave you the full story, I'm sure your opinion would change in an instance. This is simply one of the smallest problems, I've had there. I've been bullied by two managers, I've been called a traveler, have been nicknamed a dogs name by other employees who find it funny, I had gotten my hours reduced from 39 hours to 20 over one days absence for going to my own grandfathers funeral. On top of that, I have paid all my taxes since working there which averages at 35-40 p.w. and yet revenue hasn't seen a penny of them, which I have only found out in the last few days which also happened to 3 other employees from the same canteen, who all got "let go" or forced out, conveniently when they asked management about revenue. So before you try make me fit the stereotype of a 'dole troll', you'd probably want to hear the other side to it first. I take pride in my work no matter what the task and I'm proud of that fact. Get off your high horse mate....

So just be glad you got out of there then and move on. It sucks right now because you're stuck for cash but in a few years time you'll realize it was the right move and be wondering how you put up with it for as long as you did.

wantanf800r · 20-05-2014 3:55pm

Deagol wrote: »

You leave a job because you don't like what you were asked to do? And now you are stuck for money? And you want to blame someone else and sue for it?

I'm sorry, but I find it very hard to understand how you could claim for constructive dismissal.

+1

I understand where your coming from but you really should have stuck it out till Sept. Is washing pots so bad? It's money in your pocket which keeps you going until you're ready to move on. Right now you have nothing. Have you been to the Community Welfare Officer?

Your management may have felt it best to train someone else in on your duties as you were leaving in Sept. For the attitude towards you I'd be inclined to sick a Health Inspector on them.

Cheers,

Liam

moonshadow · 20-05-2014 4:01pm

You should have washed the pots very badly for a week or two , received a warning or two then they would have terminated your contract.... Then you had a chance..
ATM you left of your own free will.

dRNk SAnTA · 20-05-2014 4:07pm

Niall558 wrote: »

On top of that, I have paid all my taxes since working there which averages at 35-40 p.w. and yet revenue hasn't seen a penny of them, which I have only found out in the last few days which also happened to 3 other employees from the same canteen.

This is a serious issue - I'm sure the business can get in major trouble for this. That tax should have been paid because your social benefits are dependent on the PRSI. I would report them for this and make sure that it gets sorted out.

2Mad2BeMad · 20-05-2014 4:07pm

moonshadow wrote: »

You should have washed the pots very badly for a week or two , received a warning or two then they would have terminated your contract.... Then you had a chance..
ATM you left of your own free will.

that wouldn't constitute as an unfair dismissal then, if anything it would be a wasted 2 weeks and not only would you anger your boss, but you'd also upset your colleagues, which any job I have had, have often turned into really good friends of mine since I've moved on to a different line of work

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 4:10pm

moonshadow wrote: »

You should have washed the pots very badly for a week or two , received a warning or two then they would have terminated your contract.... Then you had a chance..
ATM you left of your own free will.

I couldn't let that stain my work record mate.
It is very bad. I've cleaned out cow sheds for 12 years + and done very degrading jobs but none like these specific pot washes. In all honesty, it's probably the busiest pot wash in the country at the minute. There is 1,500+ meals cooked and served every 2 hours.
You've probably guessed where i'm working by now, but I'm not going to name and shame, for my own benefit.

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 4:12pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

This is a serious issue - I'm sure the business can get in major trouble for this. That tax should have been paid because your social benefits are dependent on the PRSI. I would report them for this and make sure that it gets sorted out.

I'm fully aware of how wrong this is and I have been in contact with revenue and all appropriate government departments and even citizens information.
I have 99 problems right now....

Fieldsman · 20-05-2014 4:12pm

Niall yes keep up the head. I cant give a lot of help to you with the job problems but to have a bit more money in your pocket I'd suggest giving up them cigarettes

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 4:15pm

Fieldsman wrote: »

Niall yes keep up the head. I cant give a lot of help to you with the job problems but to have a bit more money in your pocket I'd suggest giving up them cigarettes

I basically have mate, I've been bumming rollies ever since. Probably one positive from this whole ordeal

AerynSun · 20-05-2014 5:19pm

I don't know the labour law here in Ireland, but in South Africa we have the notion of 'unilateral changes to the terms and conditions of employment' - by which it is illegal for the employer to change the terms of your contract without your signed consent. If the employer changed the terms and said "accept these terms or go" then that would constitute an unfair dismissal on the grounds of a unilateral change to the terms and conditions of your employment.

Trick is: what exactly were the terms of your employment? What did your written job description say it was your job to do? If the pot wash was never in your job description, then 'writing it in' the way he did during that discussion would be a change that he would be required to negotiate with you, and if you didn't accept those terms, he would not be able to impose them on you, and he would have no grounds for fair dismissal in that regard.

I think the advice you got before about consulting a legal advice clinic is good advice! Someone there will know the labour law here a lot better than I do.

Good luck!

B.A._Baracus · 20-05-2014 5:24pm

Sorry to hear your situation there, Niall.
But your knowself when it comes to these matters. You would be pissing in the wind if you try to do anything about it. Just chalk it up to a life lesson and move on.

For what its worth, the manager indeed shafted you. As soon as he was told that you were going to college you instantly became the spare flute in the place and if you didn't like it? down the road. Sure... manager said it himself to you.

Crap like this is why I have no loyalty to jobs. You can be loyal to the paycheck. Do whats best to make sure it still arrives each week. But most jobs would be quick enough to get rid of you. If need be. Especially with Jobridge out there.

Deagol · 20-05-2014 5:49pm

Niall558 wrote: »

Well if I gave you the full story, I'm sure your opinion would change in an instance. This is simply one of the smallest problems, I've had there. I've been bullied by two managers, I've been called a traveler, have been nicknamed a dogs name by other employees who find it funny, I had gotten my hours reduced from 39 hours to 20 over one days absence for going to my own grandfathers funeral. On top of that, I have paid all my taxes since working there which averages at 35-40 p.w. and yet revenue hasn't seen a penny of them, which I have only found out in the last few days which also happened to 3 other employees from the same canteen, who all got "let go" or forced out, conveniently when they asked management about revenue. So before you try make me fit the stereotype of a 'dole troll', you'd probably want to hear the other side to it first. I take pride in my work no matter what the task and I'm proud of that fact. Get off your high horse mate....

You give us some story about being asked to do the dishes being the reason you quit.
Then you put up a load more of the story with allegations of bullying and discrimination and accuse me of being cynical? If you don't give someone the full story do you think it likely that they might get the wrong end of the stick?!?

Anyway, if any of the above allegations are true then you could easily sue for constructive dismissal. But I just don't believe the story, it doesn't make sense that you come out with a relatively benign reason for quitting to start with until someone (me) doesn't give you an answer you want / like. Then you start throwing out far more serious allegations.

Sorry, the story doesn't make sense, and when a story doesn't make sense it usually isn't true.

Best of luck if it is true......

Niall558 · 20-05-2014 6:33pm

Deagol wrote: »

You give us some story about being asked to do the dishes being the reason you quit.
Then you put up a load more of the story with allegations of bullying and discrimination and accuse me of being cynical? If you don't give someone the full story do you think it likely that they might get the wrong end of the stick?!?

Anyway, if any of the above allegations are true then you could easily sue for constructive dismissal. But I just don't believe the story, it doesn't make sense that you come out with a relatively benign reason for quitting to start with until someone (me) doesn't give you an answer you want / like. Then you start throwing out far more serious allegations.

Sorry, the story doesn't make sense, and when a story doesn't make sense it usually isn't true.

Best of luck if it is true......

Well, like I said there's more than one issue going on here, but I only wanted to address the one.
Belittling is the last thing I need, so I wasn't to happy to receive it as, I think it is one of the worst qualities a human can posses.

In all fairness, I hardly thought everyone was going to give me 100% support that's why I've posted here to get honest opinions. I wasn't asking for a lie detector either, I just need to know where I stand from a legal pov and if anyone could relate to my situation.

If you're looking for proof of anything then I'd be happy to let you call me out as such and I'll be even happier to prove you wrong.

Mrs OBumble · 20-05-2014 10:40pm

OP, I've had another thought: You might or not might win a constructive dismissal case. But I think that if you submit one, you might become benefit-eligible earlier. I don't know - maybe check this with Citizen's Information or the People's Resource Centre (or similar).

Can I claim unfair dismissal?

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