[CatFromHue]

A good article as usual from Tony Ward this morning.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...t-3132420.html

"And, yet, there is pressure on Declan Kidney to deliver. Scotland's humbling of the Wallabies, our U-21s' magnificent victory over Junior World Cup hosts South Africa and Leinster's Heineken Cup triumph all add to the sense of expectation."
--
"However, any capitulation would see the Irish management team very much in the firing line. We're not quite at make-or-break time, but the next three Saturdays will have a massive bearing on what happens in the future."

[molloyjh]

Originally Posted by jm08

Have you ever even tried to compare the starting team 2 years ago to the one starting on Saturday.

How any of that is relevant to what I said I'm not sure I'll ever know. You claimed DK has been picking up the pieces from EOS, but the last 2.5 years the team has been in decline. The results, lack of any form of silverware and seeding all show that quite clearly. Let's not even talk about some of our performances.

Originally Posted by Riskymove

I only posted the stats because people posted DK stats

It was simply a way of comparing them and showing that overall there is very little difference in the win ratios etc despite some of the comments

I made no judgements or opinions on either coach

My point is that statistics only go so far as a guide to rating anyone. As people have pointed out, some games Ireland did not have a full team etc
However, skewing the stats to suit your agenda doesn't sit right with me and I reacted to that

The main issue at present for me is not simply statistics or win ratios, it is about performance and that for me is the main issue DK has to answer at present

We're probably in agreement for the most part. I was reacting to a post that claimed that the difference in achievements was stark. I don't think it is. I do think DK has had a longer run of poor results than EOS did and given that we are talking about the reaction from the media towards them based on results I reckon it's fair enough to call it into question. I didn't "skew" anything though. I took a point in time that was relevant to the debate and provided the data.

I agree that performance is the big one though. It just wasn't part of the context of the debate. That said if you take care of the performance you're doing 90% of the work towards taking care of the results....

[shuffol]

Originally Posted by CatFromHue

A good article as usual from Tony Ward this morning.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...t-3132420.html

"And, yet, there is pressure on Declan Kidney to deliver. Scotland's humbling of the Wallabies, our U-21s' magnificent victory over Junior World Cup hosts South Africa and Leinster's Heineken Cup triumph all add to the sense of expectation."
--
"However, any capitulation would see the Irish management team very much in the firing line. We're not quite at make-or-break time, but the next three Saturdays will have a massive bearing on what happens in the future."

This comment rankled with me though.
"Simon Zebo offers a more balanced left side alternative to the hugely committed but more limited Andrew Trimble"

[Fishooks12]

Originally Posted by shuffol

This comment rankled with me though.
"Simon Zebo offers a more balanced left side alternative to the hugely committed but more limited Andrew Trimble"

Ya that's odd alright. Zebo is in better form but Trimble is an infinitely more balanced winger

[GerM]

Originally Posted by shuffol

This comment rankled with me though.
"Simon Zebo offers a more balanced left side alternative to the hugely committed but more limited Andrew Trimble"

I wouldn't disagree hugely with that. I'd think Trimble would be more effective in this game as he's good at coming up and killing a move with a shuddering hit and is a very hard runner but, as a left winger, Zebo does add a balance especially with his booming left boot. Trimble is better as a right winger, I think where his physicality is in demand more.

[shuffol]

Originally Posted by GerM

I wouldn't disagree hugely with that. I'd think Trimble would be more effective in this game as he's good at coming up and killing a move with a shuddering hit and is a very hard runner but, as a left winger, Zebo does add a balance especially with his booming left boot. Trimble is better as a right winger, I think where his physicality is in demand more.

I dont like the suggestion of Trimble been "limited" in comparison to Zebo. Bit disrespectful IMO to a player who's been one of the top wingers in the country for the past few seasons. Zebo's got endless potential but a far less rounded game than Trimble at this moment.

[thebaz]

Thornley used to be a very good journalist a few years ago - but he went the opposite direction to George Hoook , and became a conservative, dont rock the boat, safe journo - shame really , that he rarely asks the hard questions these days,

[totallegend]

Originally Posted by GerM

I wouldn't disagree hugely with that. I'd think Trimble would be more effective in this game as he's good at coming up and killing a move with a shuddering hit and is a very hard runner but, as a left winger, Zebo does add a balance especially with his booming left boot. Trimble is better as a right winger, I think where his physicality is in demand more.

Kidney will, hopefully, have drilled it into Zebo (and everyone else except Sexton and possibly Kearney) that the absolute last thing he should be doing is kicking the ball.

[Fishooks12]

Originally Posted by totallegend

Kidney will, hopefully, have drilled it into Zebo (and everyone else except Sexton and possibly Kearney) that the absolute last thing he should be doing is kicking the ball and keeping it in play!

FYP!

[Riskymove]

Originally Posted by molloyjh

We're probably in agreement for the most part.

yes I think so

[GerM]

Originally Posted by totallegend

Kidney will, hopefully, have drilled it into Zebo (and everyone else except Sexton and possibly Kearney) that the absolute last thing he should be doing is kicking the ball.

Nothing wrong with kicking the ball when it's the right thing to do. If Zebo receives the ball in his own 22 with no Irish jersey near and Guildford closing in, I'd hope he booms one up the line into touch. Trimble had a ball put in behind him playing left wing against Italy in 2010. He should have launched it into the stand but wasn't comfortable, passed it to Kearney when the opposition were on top of us and we ended up conceding a try. Zebo offers a useful relieving option with his left boot that I've seen utilised in Munster on several occasions to great effect.

Aimless kicking and good tactical kicking or sensible kicking are two very different things. We've seen a lot of aimless kicking to nowhere in the last 2 years.

[totallegend]

Originally Posted by GerM

Nothing wrong with kicking the ball when it's the right thing to do. If Zebo receives the ball in his own 22 with no Irish jersey near and Guildford closing in, I'd hope he booms one up the line into touch. Trimble had a ball put in behind him playing left wing against Italy in 2010. He should have launched it into the stand but wasn't comfortable, passed it to Kearney when the opposition were on top of us and we ended up conceding a try. Zebo offers a useful relieving option with his left boot that I've seen utilised in Munster on several occasions to great effect.

Aimless kicking and good tactical kicking or sensible kicking are two very different things. We've seen a lot of aimless kicking to nowhere in the last 2 years.

Yeah, absolutely; Zebo's boot should be a 'break glass in emergency' situation, to be used for "sensible" kicking but not for "tactical".