Time to burn Greece?

femur61 · 08-06-2011 7:16am

The Greeks want a right to vote on their bailout which they will reject, am I missing something do they realise they have no money and lied to get into the EU. Without the bailout they have no money at all so they will be in a lot worse situation than the austerity measures that the government want to impose

08-06-2011 8:22am

Max Keiser & Alex Jones make the deeply complicated game appear a bit more simple. So simple in fact, that even a few criminal prosecutors could figure out "what on earth happened?!" to Europe (and the U.S.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V6JU4s2cAE&feature=related

later12 · 08-06-2011 12:15pm

femur61 wrote: »

The Greeks want a right to vote on their bailout which they will reject, am I missing something do they realise they have no money and lied to get into the EU. Without the bailout they have no money at all so they will be in a lot worse situation than the austerity measures that the government want to impose

Maybe Morgan Kelly has started to write for Kathimerini, the Greek version of The IT.

McDave · 08-06-2011 8:25pm

femur61 wrote: »

The Greeks want a right to vote on their bailout which they will reject, am I missing something do they realise they have no money and lied to get into the EU. Without the bailout they have no money at all so they will be in a lot worse situation than the austerity measures that the government want to impose

A lot of people make big plays about the virtues of democracy and, particularly in this case, referenda.

It makes me wonder what kind of question might be profitably posed to the Greek people. Bailout implementation: 'Yes' or 'No'?

It would of course be easy to get up on a high horse and blame politicians, professionals and bankers (all legitimate targets BTW). But would they also be prepared to blame themselves for voting relentlessly for a bloated public sector and non-government?

tara73 · 08-06-2011 9:14pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Where was the ECB when these banks were getting addicted on their cheap heroin... oh yes I forgot don't mention that bit...

there it is again, the victim attitude. and the one who's guilty is the one who provides it...:rolleyes:

nobody forces anybody to take heroin. it's every persons own decision to take it or not to take it.

and to get back to the real situation, money is no heroin anyway, so not a physically addictive substance. If some people/nations for whatever strange reason get addicted to it, it's the ECB's fault or what?

And why are there many nations in the EU where it never occured to peoples minds to ever be able to buy an apartment or house even if they had a steady income? because they would never get a mortgage. the banks would'nt give out mortgages easily.

so before blaming the ECB again, better think about some nations attitudes and financial systems....

Scofflaw · 08-06-2011 9:21pm

McDave wrote: »

A lot of people make big plays about the virtues of democracy and, particularly in this case, referenda.

It makes me wonder what kind of question might be profitably posed to the Greek people. Bailout implementation: 'Yes' or 'No'?

It would of course be easy to get up on a high horse and blame politicians, professionals and bankers (all legitimate targets BTW). But would they also be prepared to blame themselves for voting relentlessly for a bloated public sector and non-government?

I think that question has been answered fairly comprehensively both here and elsewhere...

cordially,
Scofflaw

ei.sdraob · 09-06-2011 9:38am

tara73 wrote: »

there it is again, the victim attitude. and the one who's guilty is the one who provides it...:rolleyes:

nobody forces anybody to take heroin. it's every persons own decision to take it or not to take it.

and to get back to the real situation, money is no heroin anyway, so not a physically addictive substance. If some people/nations for whatever strange reason get addicted to it, it's the ECB's fault or what?

And why are there many nations in the EU where it never occured to peoples minds to ever be able to buy an apartment or house even if they had a steady income? because they would never get a mortgage. the banks would'nt give out mortgages easily.

so before blaming the ECB again, better think about some nations attitudes and financial systems....

Ah yes countries are at fault. Sure was it not the Germans who first ignored and broke stability and growth pact

Painting whole countries and their people with a single brush is wrong,in my opinion the system is flawed and people and countries are mere actors on a stage setup and controlled by central bank

Yes there are people here who went mad., but to paint everyone with same brush is lazy and shallow

swampgas · 09-06-2011 1:33pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ah yes countries are at fault. Sure was it not the Germans who first ignored and broke stability and growth pact

Painting whole countries and their people with a single brush is wrong,in my opinion the system is flawed and people and countries are mere actors on a stage setup and controlled by central bank

Yes there are people here who went mad., but to paint everyone with same brush is lazy and shallow

Ireland is a sovereign state, it acts as a single entity on behalf of its people. How individual people within a sovereign state behave is pretty much irrelevant - we are all "tarred with the same brush" in economic terms whether you like it or not.

Scofflaw · 09-06-2011 5:33pm

Meanwhile, the ECB take a hard line on Greek burden-sharing, ratings agencies are doubtful, and the market doesn't particularly distinguish between Greece, Ireland and Portugal: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/09/eurozone-idUSLDE7581Z820110609

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw · 09-06-2011 6:58pm

...but Germany appears to be willing to step up to the plate: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-08/merkel-gets-backing-from-german-lawmakers-on-plan-for-second-greek-bailout.html

All set for a clash between the ECB and Germany - the Germans don't want to take on debt that could be reduced by losses to private investors, the ECB doesn't want private investors to suffer.

cordially,
Scofflaw

beeftotheheels · 09-06-2011 7:12pm

...but let's not talk about Commerzbank being exposed to Greek debt...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/09/markets-europe-stocks-idUSLDE7580TW20110609

z0oT · 09-06-2011 7:21pm

Apparently bailout #2 for Greece is to be challenged by the German Federal Constitutional Court on the grounds of being unconstitutional.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/german-federal-constitutional-court-challenge-greek-bailout-claims-action-unconstitutional

It really is ironic, the Greek people don't want another bailout, and the Germans don't want it either. So much for democracy eh?

thebman · 09-06-2011 7:23pm

German's probably don't realise how much of their pensions are invested in the countries they are bailing out.

At least logically it is the only reason to head down this path IMO.

The Euro is looking more and more likely to fall apart since nobody in it can agree on a course of action in its first crisis.

beeftotheheels · 09-06-2011 7:25pm

z0oT wrote: »

Apparently bailout #2 for Greece is to be challenged by the German Federal Constitutional Court on the grounds of being unconstitutional.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/german-federal-constitutional-court-challenge-greek-bailout-claims-action-unconstitutional

It really is ironic, the Greek people don't want another bailout, and the Germans don't want it either. So much for democracy eh?

Slightly more legible source

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110609-711259.html

FRANKFURT (Dow Jones)--Germany's highest court Thursday said it would examine from July 5 a complaint against the government's decision to participate in an international rescue package for Greece.

The Constitutional Court has been asked to rule on a number of suits brought by both pressure groups and individuals against Chancellor Angela Merkel's decision in May 2010 to contribute guaranteed loans of EUR22.4 billion in a bailout package for Greece.

A group of retired academics--including a prominent euro skeptic who had also filed a lawsuit in the 1990s in an attempt to block the adoption of the euro--filed the constitutional complaint against Germany's contribution to the bailout package.

The high court in Karlsruhe last year rejected a fast-track complaint by the plaintiffs.

beeftotheheels · 09-06-2011 7:44pm

...and which hat is Christine Lagarde wearing when she says

French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde said any resolution to the Greek debt issue can’t trigger what she called a “credit event” and must avoid involuntary debt restructuring.

“Within those parameters then there is a lot of working and thinking and exploring at the moment but nothing that could be done involuntarily,” Lagarde said in a brief interview today in Beijing, where she is seeking to bolster her candidacy for the post of International Monetary Fund managing director. “So in any event it will have to be voluntary and well announced.”

French Finance Minister concerned about the exposure of french banks, or heir presumptive to the IMF's top job?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-09/lagarde-opposes-involuntary-restructuring-as-part-of-greek-debt-solution.html

Scofflaw · 09-06-2011 11:43pm

I see that either Ollie Rehn or Reuters was confused over whether Greece could, or could not, hold to the programme of increased privatisation:

EU's Rehn backs Greece privatisation target | Reuters

May 23 (Reuters) - The EU's top economic official said Greece was on track with its privatisation programme, saying on Monday Athens could privatise 50 billion euros of assets in the coming years.

"We estimate that meaningfully Greece can privatise 50 billion euros worth of its assets in the course of the coming years, which represents more than 20 percent of its GDP," Olli Rehn, the economic and monetary affairs commissioner in the European Union's executive Commission, told a conference in Vienna.

He added that Greece had not made sufficient progress with its budget steps to allow it to return to the markets for financing in early 2012.

(Reporting by Michael Shields and Paul Carrel; Editing by John Stonestreet/Toby Chopra)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/23/eurozone-greece-privatisations-idUSLDE74M11Z20110523

and, on the same day:

EU's Rehn doubts Greece privatisation target | Reuters

(Reuters) - The EU's top economic official cast doubt on whether Greece was on track with its privatization program, saying on Monday Athens could not privatize 50 billion euros of assets in the coming years.

"We estimate that meaningfully Greece cannot privatize 50 billion euros worth of its assets in the course of the coming years, which represents more than 20 percent of its GDP," Olli Rehn, the economic and monetary affairs commissioner in the European Union's executive Commission, told a conference in Vienna.

He added that Greece had not made sufficient progress with its budget steps to allow it to return to the markets for financing in early 2012.

(Reporting by Michael Shields and Paul Carrel; Editing by John Stonestreet)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/23/us-eurozone-greece-privatisations-idUSTRE74M20L20110523

As well to be prepared for all eventualities, I suppose...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Damian_ir · 10-06-2011 8:29am

Hello to everyone,
my nationality is Greek and i live abroad.

i would like to inform you that many people in Greece thinks that the Greek prime minister will try to sell most of the public property of Greece, in order to satisfy bankers and IMF. What happens in Greece is a vast economical experiment.

I have lived for decades in Greece and i don't think that Greeks will tolerate the surrender of the country to IMF and the bankers.

I really don't want to talk more about the Greek problem, because it is not just economical problem, it is a problem of international chess, it is the problem of a designed migration of middle east to Europe, it is a problem of a war over Aegean sea between Greek F-16s and Turkish F-16s, it is a problem of a war between $ar and Euro.

In 12 JUN 2011 , ON this Sunday, more than half a million people will demonstrate against the thieves and traitors inside Greek parliament that will try to vote in favor of IMF and international bankers and against the human rights of at least 4-5 generations of Greeks.

You can use internet, to see what will occur in Athens, in Syntagma Square, ON SUNDAY night (21.00 local time) and you might see what will happen in O ' Connell street in the future. Your future !

PS: Follows a pic from the last paneuropean demonstration(In Greece, in France and Spain) against international economical killers (bankers and IMF).
Syntagma Square : http://www.agelioforos.gr/files/APortal/aganaktismenoi-syntagma11.jpg

waffleman · 10-06-2011 9:13am

I know the title says hostile takeover but why would DT purchase a 10% stake in Greeces Hellenic Telecom? Are they goin to take it over then sack ("restructure") most of the workforce?

http://www.businessinsider.com/germanys-hostile-takeover-of-greece-has-officially-begun-2011-6

Germany's Deutsche Telekom has just acquired a 10% position in Greece's Hellenic Telecom (OTE) in a deal valued at $585.7 million,

...

It may not seem like much, but it's just the beginning in a process of asset sales by the Greek state. The next potential sales include Public Power Corp., which Greece owns 51% of, gambling firm OPAP SA, and natural gas firm DEPA SA.

Whether or not it's German firms acting as the buyer in this market is unknown. But Germany is also working to have Greece sacrifice its fiscal sovereignty in return for more bailout aid, something Greek protesters are not pleased about.

Damian_ir · 10-06-2011 10:02am

Additionally, in case someone didn't understand what i'm trying to say with my previous post, please watch this brave representative of the European Parliament.

http://youtu.be/V7fnJCmbuPU

Unlimited respect from a Greek that lives abroad cause of these economical killers.

SUNDAY 12 June - Syndagma Square(21:00 , local time) : The day that Europe will change for ever

Drumpot · 10-06-2011 10:48am

Seems like the EU are bending over backwards to do whatever they can to do for a Greece that is unwilling to play ball in the same manner that Ireland is.

They get promises of reduced interest rates and a restructure of their terms and we get threatened if we dont raise a tax that has nothing to do with the bailout that they wont talk of restructure!

Now I know we are an exporting community, but governments come and go. Whatever we do to upset a government today, will be forgotten in 5 years when they have moved on. Im not saying we should go OTT and threaten to leave the EURO, but surely we could start to throw our weight around a bit like the Greeks ? I dont really see what we have to lose!

Oh wait, we got the anybody but FF change that has heralded a new dawn for politics within Ireland! Our well educated (well most of them are teachers!) ministers approach to public service reform and their clear/transparent communications with their people, that was part of their election promise, has meant that we are experiencing a time of unfound clarity when it comes to knowing what our government is up to and where their strategies will lead us! Its just aswell we didnt get what some of us wanted (new politicians, new ideas, new qualifications) because we might not of had the kind of quality within the Dail that we are lucky enough to enjoy today!

beeftotheheels · 10-06-2011 11:50am

Damian_ir wrote: »

Hello to everyone,
my nationality is Greek and i live abroad.

i would like to inform you that many people in Greece thinks that the Greek prime minister will try to sell most of the public property of Greece, in order to satisfy bankers and IMF. What happens in Greece is a vast economical experiment.

I have lived for decades in Greece and i don't think that Greeks will tolerate the surrender of the country to IMF and the bankers.

I really don't want to talk more about the Greek problem, because it is not just economical problem, it is a problem of international chess, it is the problem of a designed migration of middle east to Europe, it is a problem of a war over Aegean sea between Greek F-16s and Turkish F-16s, it is a problem of a war between $ar and Euro.

In 12 JUN 2011 , ON this Sunday, more than half a million people will demonstrate against the thieves and traitors inside Greek parliament that will try to vote in favor of IMF and international bankers and against the human rights of at least 4-5 generations of Greeks.

You can use internet, to see what will occur in Athens, in Syntagma Square, ON SUNDAY night (21.00 local time) and you might see what will happen in O ' Connell street in the future. Your future !

PS: Follows a pic from the last paneuropean demonstration(In Greece, in France and Spain) against international economical killers (bankers and IMF).
Syntagma Square : http://www.agelioforos.gr/files/APortal/aganaktismenoi-syntagma11.jpg

What do the Greek people think will happen?

1. That the German taxpayers will make you a gift?
2. That the EU will cut you loose and allow you partake in an unstructured default?

I am genuinely curious about this given that as things stand your government runs out of money in a matter of weeks.

ei.sdraob · 10-06-2011 1:12pm

swampgas wrote: »

Ireland is a sovereign state, it acts as a single entity on behalf of its people. How individual people within a sovereign state behave is pretty much irrelevant - we are all "tarred with the same brush" in economic terms whether you like it or not.

We certainly <should> not all be "tarred with same brush" and I am getting rather tired of being tarred with same brush and blamed and told to pay for the socialized mistakes of others.
I can get a loan at lower interest rate than the state can for example (then again im not bankrupt), for that matter so can many companies too, didnt ESB get a loan this week at a low rate.

By painting a state and all its people with a single brush all you are doing is furthering ignorance and silliness that is going on lately. Should we also paint all the Germans with one brush for the past sins of their politicians and some people? No so please lumping all the Irish and all the Greeks together. Stereotyping and generalizing doesnt help these arguments.

Cannibal Ox · 10-06-2011 1:39pm

beeftotheheels wrote:

What do the Greek people think will happen?

1. That the German taxpayers will make you a gift?
2. That the EU will cut you loose and allow you partake in an unstructured default?

I am genuinely curious about this given that as things stand your government runs out of money in a matter of weeks.

Maybe someone from the ECB, German government or even the Greek government might brave the crowd, have a talk with them and see exactly what it is they're protesting about?

If the protestors were comprised of mini-Ian Paisley's shouting "NEVER!", you could make the argument to ignore them and that they are being childish.

But I don't think they are saying or doing that and, accepting that the whole thing was a mess in the first place, ignoring them is only aggravating the situation unnecessarily.

Which is bizarre, because we expect German ministers and Greek ministers to compromise but for some reason, we don't expect German ministers and Greek people to compromise.

In the end there has to be some kind of democratic process in this, otherwise I can't see how you could support it or how it will work.

srsly78 · 10-06-2011 2:17pm

Damian_ir wrote: »

Hello to everyone,
my nationality is Greek and i live abroad.

i would like to inform you that many people in Greece thinks that the Greek prime minister will try to sell most of the public property of Greece, in order to satisfy bankers and IMF. What happens in Greece is a vast economical experiment.

I have lived for decades in Greece and i don't think that Greeks will tolerate the surrender of the country to IMF and the bankers.

I really don't want to talk more about the Greek problem, because it is not just economical problem, it is a problem of international chess, it is the problem of a designed migration of middle east to Europe, it is a problem of a war over Aegean sea between Greek F-16s and Turkish F-16s, it is a problem of a war between $ar and Euro.

In 12 JUN 2011 , ON this Sunday, more than half a million people will demonstrate against the thieves and traitors inside Greek parliament that will try to vote in favor of IMF and international bankers and against the human rights of at least 4-5 generations of Greeks.

You can use internet, to see what will occur in Athens, in Syntagma Square, ON SUNDAY night (21.00 local time) and you might see what will happen in O ' Connell street in the future. Your future !

PS: Follows a pic from the last paneuropean demonstration(In Greece, in France and Spain) against international economical killers (bankers and IMF).
Syntagma Square : http://www.agelioforos.gr/files/APortal/aganaktismenoi-syntagma11.jpg

Here's a radical suggestion for you:
Pay your damn taxes!

You make the Irish look fiscally prudent.

later12 · 10-06-2011 4:06pm

Damian_ir wrote: »

In 12 JUN 2011 , ON this Sunday, more than half a million people will demonstrate against the thieves and traitors inside Greek parliament that will try to vote in favor of IMF and international bankers

Sitting on a Sunday?

Jayzis. And they call themselves one of the PIGS? They dont know the first thing about PIGS.

McDave · 10-06-2011 6:26pm

Damian_ir wrote: »

i would like to inform you that many people in Greece thinks that the Greek prime minister will try to sell most of the public property of Greece, in order to satisfy bankers and IMF. What happens in Greece is a vast economical experiment.

I have lived for decades in Greece and i don't think that Greeks will tolerate the surrender of the country to IMF and the bankers.

Why then did the Greeks vote for governments who took all the easy political options? Why were Greeks not protesting in their hundreds of thousands over the years against administrations who fail to collect taxes?

From my perspective the politics of the situation will be decided by the Greek people's willingness to rectify the huge imbalances in their economy. If they show no willingness to do so, their Eurozone partners will have to give serious consideration to cutting Greece loose. And to keep their powder dry for countries they can realistically support.

beeftotheheels · 10-06-2011 6:57pm

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

Maybe someone from the ECB, German government or even the Greek government might brave the crowd, have a talk with them and see exactly what it is they're protesting about?

If the protestors were comprised of mini-Ian Paisley's shouting "NEVER!", you could make the argument to ignore them and that they are being childish.

But I don't think they are saying or doing that and, accepting that the whole thing was a mess in the first place, ignoring them is only aggravating the situation unnecessarily.

Which is bizarre, because we expect German ministers and Greek ministers to compromise but for some reason, we don't expect German ministers and Greek people to compromise.

In the end there has to be some kind of democratic process in this, otherwise I can't see how you could support it or how it will work.

It is not the job of the German ministers to look out for the interests of the Greek people, that is the job of the Greek politicians. The job of the German politicians is to look out for the German people, the job of the ECB is to police price stability in the Eurozone, not to look out for the interests of the Greek people.

Even if the Greek people were to say to a German politician tomorrow that they are protesting against rich people being under taxed in Greece what the hell is that German politician supposed to do about it? He can't levy a tax on Greek rich people, only the Greek government can do that.

If the Greek people wish to over throw their government tomorrow then they can do that, but they cannot do that and expect anyone else to give them money the following morning.

Democracy allows the Greek people to chose their fate, but the only fate they can chose right now, bearing in mind they have no money, is to descend into a disorderly default.

There is just no way to bail out Greece, while allowing the Greek people free reign to spend the money as they see fit, without trampling all over the democratic rights of the German and French and Finnish people, because the taxpayers in the bailing out countries have a right to expect that their governments will only invest their taxes abroad, if there is some hope of getting that money back.

z0oT · 10-06-2011 7:58pm

George Papandreou said that reforms on the political system or the public administration need the voting of Greek people through referendums.

Source - http://english.capital.gr/News.asp?id=1215298

I have to wonder is Papandreou preparing to tell the EU to go to hell? He has to know that the chance of a referendum to appease EU interests passing is nil or close to it.

Raskolnikov · 11-06-2011 12:20am

beeftotheheels wrote: »

What do the Greek people think will happen?

1. That the German taxpayers will make you a gift?
2. That the EU will cut you loose and allow you partake in an unstructured default?

I am genuinely curious about this given that as things stand your government runs out of money in a matter of weeks.

They might get a cut in the interest rate of their bailout, they might get part of their debt written off.

Don't forget, Greece have a much high debt to GDP ratio than Ireland, have instituted almost none of the reforms that they promised, and have been assigned as an even poorer credit risk than Ireland (S&P, Moodys, bond yields, etc.). Despite this, they were able to negotiate a 1% cut in their bailout, bringing their costs below Ireland's.

I suspect that Greece will stamp their feet and they will get some sort of concession from Europe. Ireland on the otherhand will not protest and pay up while Irish citizens will sit back and do nothing, bar moan to Joe Duffy when social welfare payments are cut again in the forthcoming budget.

McDave · 11-06-2011 12:30am

beeftotheheels wrote: »

It is not the job of the German ministers to look out for the interests of the Greek people, that is the job of the Greek politicians. The job of the German politicians is to look out for the German people, the job of the ECB is to police price stability in the Eurozone, not to look out for the interests of the Greek people.

Even if the Greek people were to say to a German politician tomorrow that they are protesting against rich people being under taxed in Greece what the hell is that German politician supposed to do about it? He can't levy a tax on Greek rich people, only the Greek government can do that.

If the Greek people wish to over throw their government tomorrow then they can do that, but they cannot do that and expect anyone else to give them money the following morning.

Democracy allows the Greek people to chose their fate, but the only fate they can chose right now, bearing in mind they have no money, is to descend into a disorderly default.

There is just no way to bail out Greece, while allowing the Greek people free reign to spend the money as they see fit, without trampling all over the democratic rights of the German and French and Finnish people, because the taxpayers in the bailing out countries have a right to expect that their governments will only invest their taxes abroad, if there is some hope of getting that money back.

Excellent post.

Greece has been making poor democratic choices for decades. They only have themselves to blame.

Time to burn Greece?

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