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Does the "e" in e-net stand for evasion?

  • 16-09-2004 9:36am
    #1
    vinnyfitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭


    I listned to the third hilarious installment in the Morning Ireland DSL soap opera at 8.45 this morning.
    Apart from some very frank and to the point contributions from listners, there was a very irritating interview with George McGrath of e-net.
    He seemed to emphasise that the MANs were for business users not consumers.
    He was as good at waffling and changing the subject as any Minister.
    In particular he absolutely failed to explain to R Downes how an ordinary consumer might expect to connect to one of his fibre rings in the event they could not get a DSL connection. (The question I was trying to get at in this thread )


Comments

  • #2
    Dangger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Dangger


    This is an extremely worrying development, and something I very much feared after the awarding of the contract.

    The usefulness for end users, and I would have thought the success of the MAN's for the entity (Managed Services Entity - MSE) who runs them depends on getting as much traffic as possible onto them.

    If E-Net are to behave like Bord Gais, the ESB Esat/Ocean did with their dark unused networks, leaving them buried with little or no use, we are back to square one. The MAN's MUST be open to communities, and businesses who are within reach. This may involve co-location facilities controlled by the MSE but break out where required must be a reality.

    I am deeply concerned by the lack of publicity by E-Net of their network to date. Have they have been given the keys only to change the locks and keep the governments new broadband infrastructure under wraps for the foreseeable future?

    IOFFL should consider opening dialogue with E-Net as soon as possible, and also with the DCMNR to investigate this matter further.

    In Ballina where the fibre ring is complete, I recently visited the Chamer of Commerce who gushed how happy they were they had a fibre ring but blinked blankly when I asked them who was using it. These business groups need a wake up call, yes they lobbied for it to happen, but now you should ensure that it gets out into your community and all of your businesses.

    All this about business only users is rubbish with telecommuting, tech cottages in rural areas a growing phenonemom, and hopes for decentralisation of state departments. An attitude that businesses only need connectivity in their place of business and not into the homes of employees shows total lack of vision from E-Net, and is quoshes the potential for smaller businesses to be attracted to rural areas where the MAN's are present to develop and create employment.

    Also in and around Ballina there is a mesh network (OscarBravo take a bow), that would be happy to take some connectivity from the Ballina ring and bounce it out to its community network. A delegation from the Knockmore broadband network I'm sure would be most interested in having their case heard by the department and E-Net (yes folks in the same room at the same time!) as to why they should be excluded from using the fibre rings.


  • #3
    Dangger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Dangger


    I'd be most greatful if the third RTE piece could be made available as the other pieces were today, it would be most useful. I'm offering to do a transcript if the audio is available, that is if I don;t throw my pc out the window with rage on hearing it!


  • #4
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    am doing as we speak


  • #5
    vinnyfitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭vinnyfitz


    Great C Garvey
    In the meantime the piece can be replayed from the link (low down) this page


  • #6
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    The relevant snip rips are here

    .cg


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  • #7
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Dangger wrote:
    Also in and around Ballina there is a mesh network (OscarBravo take a bow), that would be happy to take some connectivity from the Ballina ring and bounce it out to its community network. A delegation from the Knockmore broadband network I'm sure would be most interested in having their case heard by the department and E-Net (yes folks in the same room at the same time!) as to why they should be excluded from using the fibre rings.
    We're not excluded from using them - we just have to pay the same for access to them as everyone else does. Muck has outlined the pricing in another thread, with a clarification from me.

    e-net's role seems to be, in simple terms, that of fibre brokers. They negotiate with those carriers who have fibre in a given town to connect that fibre to the MAN. They then allow end-users to connect, via the MAN, to whichever carriers have backhaul on the MAN.

    In Ballina at the moment, I gather that means just Esat. Presumably it will at some point also mean Eircom. It won't mean anyone else until and unless ESBT and/or Aurora decide to bring fibre to the town.

    In Kiltimagh, it means nobody, because the only fibre in Kiltimagh is the MAN itself.

    What I think it does mean is that I can get a leased line without paying the ludicrous tail cost to Galway or wherever Eircom wanted to connect me to - I just have to pay for whatever length of fibre it takes to connect me to e-net's PoP, and whatever Esat's bandwidth charge is on top of that.

    I think.

    When I find out more, I'll let youse know.


  • #8
    Jorinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Jorinn


    vinnyfitz wrote:
    I listned to the third hilarious installment in the Morning Ireland DSL soap opera at 8.45 this morning.
    Apart from some very frank and to the point contributions from listners, there was a very irritating interview with George McGrath of e-net.
    He seemed to emphasise that the MANs were for business users not consumers.
    He was as good at waffling and changing the subject as any Minister.
    In particular he absolutely failed to explain to R Downes how an ordinary consumer might expect to connect to one of his fibre rings in the event they could not get a DSL connection. (The question I was trying to get at in this thread )
    Funnily enough I asked the minister ahern the same question in an email yesterday.


  • #9
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    oscarBravo wrote:
    In Kiltimagh, it means nobody, because the only fibre in Kiltimagh is the MAN itself.
    That pretty much sums up the MANs.

    There will be people and companies that benefit from the MANs, but the potential benefit, in the near to medium term, doesn't come anywhere near justifying the costs. And the Kiltimagh MAN is the epitome of what's wrong with the MANs.


  • #10
    dahamsta
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    cgarvey wrote:
    The relevant snip rips are here
    And here.


  • #11
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭De Rebel


    Just when we were starting to see some focus on the real issues, the MANs reappear.

    Somebody really needs to explain that concentrating on these MANs in isolation is like building a main drainage scheme while making no provision to put toilets in peoples houses. We still end up crapping in buckets and emptying them in a drain at the back of the yard. While the main drain is sitting empty and unused.

    Sure the MANs are worthwhile. Sure the MANs are a good investment. Sure the MANs are important for the future.

    But they are not THE solution. They are ONE PART of the solution. And unfortunately some of the other parts are being forgotten about.

    As Noel O'Flynn says, its all about the First Mile.

    Give us our indoor toilets so we are not walking about with the track of the bucket across our arses.


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  • #12
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    IoffL should also follow up on Morning Ireland's mention of bringing McGratch back in 3 or 4 months to detail who is actually using the MANs.

    .cg


  • #13
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    De Rebel wrote:
    Just when we were starting to see some focus on the real issues, the MANs reappear.

    Somebody really needs to explain that concentrating on these MANs in isolation is like building a main drainage scheme while making no provision to put toilets in peoples houses. We still end up crapping in buckets and emptying them in a drain at the back of the yard. While the main drain is sitting empty and unused.

    Sure the MANs are worthwhile. Sure the MANs are a good investment. Sure the MANs are important for the future.

    But they are not THE solution. They are ONE PART of the solution. And unfortunately some of the other parts are being forgotten about.

    As Noel O'Flynn says, its all about the First Mile.

    Give us our indoor toilets so we are not walking about with the track of the bucket across our arses.


    Brilliant analogy. It would make a great IOFFL press release. :D


  • #14
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭De Rebel


    tom dunne wrote:
    It would make a great IOFFL press release. :D

    Stranger things have happened..............


  • #15
    jbkenn
    Registered Users Posts: 919 ✭✭✭jbkenn


    De Rebel wrote:
    Just when we were starting to see some focus on the real issues, the MANs reappear.

    Somebody really needs to explain that concentrating on these MANs in isolation is like building a main drainage scheme while making no provision to put toilets in peoples houses. We still end up crapping in buckets and emptying them in a drain at the back of the yard. While the main drain is sitting empty and unused.

    Sure the MANs are worthwhile. Sure the MANs are a good investment. Sure the MANs are important for the future.

    But they are not THE solution. They are ONE PART of the solution. And unfortunately some of the other parts are being forgotten about.

    As Noel O'Flynn says, its all about the First Mile.

    Give us our indoor toilets so we are not walking about with the track of the bucket across our arses.

    tom dunne wrote:
    Brilliant analogy. It would make a great IOFFL press release. :D

    Regrettably tom, this piece (to continue De Rebel's analogy) of crap, would not make a good press release. It quite simply demonstrates the penchant some boards members have, to, "shoot first, and, ask questions afterwards"

    Has anybody bothered to contact Enet to arrange a meeting on behalf of IOFFL, so that they can determine exactly what Enet's remit is.

    To my knowledge, Enet's remit is to manage the MAN's on behalf of their owners, the Local Authorities, who were funded by the Government to build them. To this end they are tasked with marketing the MAN's to Authorised Operators (Telco's). they are only allowed to deal with AO's, they have no brief to sell to the end user, which would probably explain why George McGrath was unable to answer the questions about last mile delivery.

    jbkenn

    p.s. not all of Enet's staff live in broadband land, some of them actually live in the boonies, and are just as anxious to get broadband access, as everybody else, and are actively working to achieve this.


  • #16
    spongebob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    The (second) last committee met E Net , maybe a word with Christian would be an idea ?

    E Net should have a vision thing that they can express clearly in the media by now . If they keep waffling rather than sound like they will deliver (its a 10 year contract is it not ? ) then they will find themselves at the end of some candid analyses . Consider the above to be a deconstruction if you will .

    A Meet and exchange of views would be a nice idea ......remember that they are in Limerick :) .I believe that they are better able to articulate a vision thing when not on the airwaves.

    M


  • #17
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Muck wrote:
    E Net should have a vision thing that they can express clearly in the media by now . If they keep waffling rather than sound like they will deliver (its a 10 year contract is it not ? )
    15, I think.
    Muck wrote:
    then they will find themselves at the end of some candid analyses . Consider the above to be a deconstruction if you will .

    A Meet and exchange of views would be a nice idea ......remember that they are in Limerick smile.gif .I believe that they are better able to articulate a vision thing when not on the airwaves.
    I don't know that they're in a position to have a vision, as such. They have a mandate, as jbkenn pointed out. It's not their fibre; their job is to do with it whatever the owners have told them to.

    A meeting is a good idea, and from my conversations with them so far, I wouldn't expect it to be a problem.


  • #18
    maxheadroom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭maxheadroom


    jbkenn wrote:
    Regrettably tom, this piece (to continue De Rebel's analogy) of crap, would not make a good press release. It quite simply demonstrates the penchant some boards members have, to, "shoot first, and, ask questions afterwards"

    tbh, I wouldn't see a press release along those lines as targeting E-net, I'd see it as targeting certain politicians who think that if they keep chanting their mantra that the MANs are the solution to every problem with comms in this country that people just might start to believe them.

    To continue the analogy - this isn't complaiing about the presence of a new main drain, its complaining that people cant even access the existing drainage system because they haven't got the plumbing in place EDIT: and that there's no way for them to put their own pluming in to connect to the new drain.


  • #19
    spongebob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    maxheadroom wrote:
    tbh, I wouldn't see a press release along those lines as targeting E-net, I'd see it as targeting certain politicians who think that if they keep chanting their mantra that the MANs are the solution to every problem with comms in this country that people just might start to believe them.
    I'd save my ammo at this point
    To continue the analogy - this isn't complaiing about the presence of a new main drain, its complaining that people cant even access the existing drainage system because they haven't got the plumbing in place EDIT: and that there's no way for them to put their own plumbing in to connect to the new drain.
    Personally I'd make the point that the existing sewers were actually sold to the Rats that inhabit them and that Eircom then celebrated their success by running ads with Rats in them all over the national media for the next 3 years :) .

    M


  • #20
    De Rebel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭De Rebel


    jbkenn wrote:
    Regrettably tom, this piece (to continue De Rebel's analogy) of crap, would not make a good press release. It quite simply demonstrates the penchant some boards members have, to, "shoot first, and, ask questions afterwards"

    Has anybody bothered to contact Enet to arrange a meeting on behalf of IOFFL, so that they can determine exactly what Enet's remit is.

    To my knowledge, Enet's remit is to manage the MAN's on behalf of their owners, the Local Authorities, who were funded by the Government to build them. To this end they are tasked with marketing the MAN's to Authorised Operators (Telco's). they are only allowed to deal with AO's, they have no brief to sell to the end user, which would probably explain why George McGrath was unable to answer the questions about last mile delivery.

    jbkenn

    p.s. not all of Enet's staff live in broadband land, some of them actually live in the boonies, and are just as anxious to get broadband access, as everybody else, and are actively working to achieve this.

    Not sure what your problem with my post was, I can only assume that you misread it. You have a go at me and call my post crap without giving any explenation for doing so. And then go on to have a swipe at other unnamed boards members, again with no attempt to substantiate your comment.

    The MANs are a good thing. The existence of a competent MSE would a good thing. But the MANs are not THE solution to any of the problems we are experiencing today. They are a small part of the solution. What I object to is this repeated promotion of the MANs as being a solution in themselves. For example, the most recent press release from DCMNR on Sept "Dermot Ahern Opens Midland Broadband" includes this little nugget "Broadband is, for us, as dramatic a change as going from the steam age to the space age in one jump. If any of you have not had the broadband experience, I would urge you to do so - you literally do not know what you are missing". Right, so all off on our bikes to Athlone or Mullingar or Portlaoise or Tullamore or Roscommon and plug into the Midland MAN and experience broadband for ourselves ? No. The Midland Man is a lot of fibre in the ground, nothing more. It is not a broadband service.

    Frankly I see little reason for a meeting between IOFFL and e-net at this time. As George McGrath was at pains to point out their remit does not extend to end users. THE MANs are no more useful to you and me than any of the other fibre, lit or unlit, that is running around this country. We have the ESB's figure of 8, the Western Digital corridor and various other projects which are not doing much.

    There is a real need for somebody to join up the dots. The elements necessary to create a backbone are in existence. But there is no cohesive national plan for delivery of services to the end user. And the biggest gap is the absence of a rational plan for the first mile.


  • #21
    DonegalMan
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭DonegalMan


    jbkenn wrote:
    ... Enet's remit is to manage the MAN's ...they are only allowed to deal with AO's, they have no brief to sell to the end user
    So what exactly is wrong with DeRebel's analogy about the empty drain outside the house?


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  • #22
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    jbkenn wrote:
    To my knowledge, Enet's remit is to manage the MAN's on behalf of their owners, the Local Authorities, who were funded by the Government to build them. To this end they are tasked with marketing the MAN's to Authorised Operators (Telco's). they are only allowed to deal with AO's, they have no brief to sell to the end user, which would probably explain why George McGrath was unable to answer the questions about last mile delivery.
    Mr McGrath managed to go through a complete interview deliberately avoiding dealing with this issue - it's not that he didn't have the opportunity to make it clear that the MANs won't be delivering BB to anyones doorstep, he simpley refused to make that clear.

    On more than one occassion in the interview, he was explicitly asked what ENet would do to help residential customers, and he deliberately confused the issue refusing to explicitly state that ENet would not be delivering any services to residential customers. He even said that customers would be able to connect to the MANs using their phone lines!!! and when asked if his MAN systems would be coming in at cheaper than the current residential price of €40/month he said "very much so".

    Frankly, it was a disgusting performance, and it is unfortunate that the Morning Ireland interviewer wasn't able to pin him down.


  • #23
    vinnyfitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭vinnyfitz


    Don't think anyone posted this atrticle from friday 17th?





    ENet chief aims to turn Republic into a broadband global leader
    Jamie Smyth, Technology Reporter




    Michael Tiernan doesn't shy away from big challenges. In the mid-1980s, when many of his friends in the civil-engineering business were boarding planes at Shannon Airport to go to jobs in England, he took a bet on Limerick and set up Tiernan Properties.

    At a time when investing in the regions was unpopular, Mr Tiernan built a shopping centre at Arthur's Quay in Limerick city centre in the late 1980s. Over the following decade he followed the same model, developing shopping centres in regional towns such as Roscrea, Longford and Athlone.

    "I was the one with the idea for the Arthur's Quay project and I made it happen with a joint venture," says Mr Tiernan, who admits failure would have resulted in emigration for him.

    "We have also developed office blocks in the past and are now working on a shopping centre in Tuam."

    Success in the development game has generated a generous income for the father of seven, with one of Tiernan Properties' subsidiaries, Doncove Ltd, posting profits of €3.17 million and net assets worth more than €15.7 million in 2003.

    But not content with the riding the property boom, over the past four years Mr Tiernan has taken on a major challenge: transforming the Republic from a broadband laggard into a global leader.

    ENet, another Limerick-based firm that Mr Tiernan set up in 2000, was recently awarded a 15-year contract to manage the State's €170 million fibre optic networks, which are being constructed in regional areas.

    The high-profile contract will see eNet operate as a wholesale telecoms firm, offering cut-price broadband connectivity to a range of operators who want to offer high-speed internet to customers, many of whom live in areas poorly served by the dominant telecoms operator Eircom and its main rival, Esat BT.

    "The Government's regional broadband initiative is in line with what is happening in Korea, Stockholm and Palo Alto but it is probably more innovative than anywhere else in the world," says Mr Tiernan. "The first 19 metropolitan area networks \ are completed and will be operational by the end of the year."

    The MANs are networks of ducting and fibre optic cable, built around towns by the State, that are capable of delivering telecoms, internet, television, telematics and CCTV services.

    As manager of the State network, eNet will lease capacity to other telecoms operators to enable them to offer more services to businesses and consumers to spur regional development. Revenue generated from the contract will be split between the State and eNet, which has raised €13 million from private individuals, venture funds and investment banks, to fund its operations.

    So how does a Limerick-based property developer get involved in a State-sponsored project to develop the digital economy?

    "I have a strong interest in regional development and from working with Shannon Development, Limerick City Council and the IDA, it became patently obvious that building the Citywest-style business parks of Dublin was just not possible here," he says.

    "Software companies were interested in setting up in Limerick but the lack of suitable broadband and IT infrastructure was a major deterrent."

    Although Shannon has been a major telecoms hub for many years, there were no internet data centres outside Dublin, says Mr Tiernan, who was eager to enter this booming market back in 2000 and create new development opportunities for his main business, Tiernan Properties.

    To try to break the broadband deficit in the region, he formed eNet and began negotiations with Esat BT to try to buy fibre capacity on its Western Digital Corridor. But the talks led nowhere and eNet failed in a separate bid to attract Government funding for the construction of a new fibre optic link between Dublin and the west of Ireland to break the broadband bottleneck that was strangling the region.

    "The ESB is now there and its nationwide fibre network is a key enabler in providing a competitive market for national connectivity... The Government has also now completed construction of its 19 metropolitan-area networks and sanctioned the construction of a further six in the north east," says Mr Tiernan.

    He adds that the lack of broadband connectivity should not prevent firms from locating in Limerick or, indeed, any regional towns covered by the State's €170 million scheme.

    ENet has already assumed control of the regional networks and has resumed all marketing, maintenance and management. It will not offer businesses or consumers a telecoms service but rather become a "carrier's carrier" that leases fibre to other telecoms operators who will use it to provide broadband or telecoms services to their own customers.

    "It is very important that you realise we are completely carrier neutral and won't be becoming a retail telecoms operator," says Mr Tiernan. "We are purely in the wholesale space and deal with operators on a very confidential basis. We only engage with end users from an educational point of view."

    So far, it is going well, he says. "We've already sold fibre to Esat BT, Smart Telecom and Leap Broadband in Limerick and Cork. We are also actively engaged with telecoms operators in Letterkenny and Galway."

    Mr Tiernan admits that getting operators interested in providing new services in smaller towns will be more of a challenge. But he says he is encouraged with the level of inquiries received by eNet and claims the initiative will bring in a lot of new operators that, in the past, haven't been interested in regional locations.

    One potential stumbling block for the State's regional broadband initiative is the hostile reaction of Eircom, which is already losing business on its own national backbone network as a result of the ESB's re-entry into the telecoms sector earlier this year.

    Eircom has not yet decided whether it will link its own telecoms network into the Government exchanges - a failure to collocate would make it more difficult for other fixed-line telecoms firms to use the MAN networks to reach residential consumers to offer broadband.

    "We have initiated contact with Eircom and we expect, over time, they will become one of our biggest customers given the cost-effectiveness of using our infrastructure. Our long-term goal is to create a good relationship and we have asked Eircom to locate at our co-location facilities."

    So far, this invitation has not been accepted by the firm and Mr Tiernan refuses to be drawn on whether the State could enforce co-location in the future.

    "This isn't our role. We aren't in the regulation business."

    Another challenge will be setting an attractive price to attract operators into the regions while proving an appropriate return to both eNet and the State. Commercial details of the State contract have not been released by the Government but Mr Tiernan says he expects it to break even within three years of operation.

    Clearly, eNet will have its venture capital backers in mind when setting tariffs but adopting a purely commercial approach may limit the regional-development ambitions of the State.

    "The Government has set maximum prices that we can charge and we already have customers," says Mr Tiernan. "We feel our rates are similar to those charged in other comparable locations."



    © The Irish Times


  • #24
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    vinnyfitz wrote:
    Don't think anyone posted this atrticle from friday 17th?

    Another challenge will be setting an attractive price to attract operators into the regions while proving an appropriate return to both eNet and the State. Commercial details of the State contract have not been released by the Government but Mr Tiernan says he expects it to break even within three years of operation.
    I'm surprised this hasn't been done. I would have thought this would have been the main subject of the protracted negotiations. How were they able to do a deal with Smart telecom with no prices? Are enet being allowed to negotiatiate on an ad-hoc basis with each telco separately?

    Compare e-net's website (mainly PR guff, no information) with that of AB Stokab (full prices, maps, information). Guess where the investment is going to go.

    If this situation doesn't change soon, none of the potential of these MANs will be realised.
    "The Government's regional broadband initiative is in line with what is happening in Korea, Stockholm and Palo Alto but it is probably more innovative than anywhere else in the world," says Mr Tiernan. "The first 19 metropolitan area networks \ are completed and will be operational by the end of the year."
    It would have been nice if the reporter had asked in what way the Irish networks were more innovative.


  • #25
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    SkepticOne wrote:
    It would have been nice if the reporter had asked in what way the Irish networks were more innovative.
    We're more innovative because we're going to build a world class telecomms infrastructure by totally ignoring the last mile, which is in absolute rag order.

    Insert irony emoticon as appropriate.


  • #26
    jwt
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭jwt


    SkepticOne wrote:
    I'm surprised this hasn't been done. I would have thought this would have been the main subject of the protracted negotiations. How were they able to do a deal with Smart telecom with no prices? Are enet being allowed to negotiatiate on an ad-hoc basis with each telco separately?


    I thought the article meant that the prices hadn't been released to the public?
    Compare e-net's website (mainly PR guff, no information) with that of AB Stokab (full prices, maps, information). Guess where the investment is going to go.

    Both those links go to www.e-net.ie :)

    On the face of it the IT article was reasonably upfront, they will not be selling direct. However it is still not clear how the MAN gets delivered to the home without the telcos scalping the price and for MAN's not on the ESB loop how will they compare to MAN's on the loop. Are we entering a new comercial digital divide. Regions that are on the ESB backbone get to attract investment and regions away are reliant on EIRCOM and hence priced out of the game?


    John


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