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Got caught out calling a non-O2 number

2

Comments

  • #32
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,067 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    krudler wrote: »
    obviously it has to be on one of them,

    here you can borrow mine. :)


  • #33
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    that and competition laws. We need the likes of three and meteor to bring in good deals for people, until number portability came in everyone would just stick with 086 or 087 as they could tell from the prefix. If that stayed in place nobody would move to another challenger network and thus no competition.

    Anyone on bill pay should get their contract based on how many minutes they'd use if all their friends were on different networks. That's the only way to buy a bill phone anything else is a false economy.

    I can't make head nor tail of this, but I completely fail to see how it is good for competition to prevent consumers knowing what a phone call will cost before they make it.
    krudler wrote: »
    knowing a number is on one of the networks, not a specific network, is two different things, if its not o2 it can be 3, tesco, vodafone, meteor or emobile. obviously it has to be on one of them, if you know what network the person is on you know how much its costing them to make calls, its the same reason why you can only see your outgoing and not incoming calls on a phone bill, data protection.

    This is utter cobblers - I see the network of every number I ring when I get my bill. Why is it a data protection issue to have this information before I make the call, but not after I make it?

    And everyone talking up this famous beep as a way to keep track of and control costs takes no account of people calling mobiles from landlines, who have absolutely no way to know the cost of a call to a mobile in advance.


  • #34
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    gizmo555 wrote: »

    And everyone talking up this famous beep as a way to keep track of and control costs takes no account of people calling mobiles from landlines, who have absolutely no way to know the cost of a call to a mobile in advance.

    except when they give you that info when you first take out the plan? its on the contract terms on landlines as well


  • #35
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    krudler wrote: »
    except when they give you that info when you first take out the plan? its on the contract terms on landlines as well

    Give you what info? They don't give you the information to know in advance what a call to a mobile phone will cost, if you don't already know what network it's on.


  • #36
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Give you what info? They don't give you the information to know in advance what a call to a mobile phone will cost, if you don't already know what network it's on.

    That would be covered in the part where they say something like "Calls to customers on the same network as you are X cent per minute. Calls to customers on other networks are Y cent per minute. Calls to landlines are Z cent per minute."

    So it's either X or Y, depending on whether you hear the beep or not. Y is usually more expensive, whereas X is usually free, depending on your network and your particular tariff.


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  • #37
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    That would be covered in the part where they say something like "Calls to customers on the same network as you are X cent per minute. Calls to customers on other networks are Y cent per minute. Calls to landlines are Z cent per minute."

    So it's either X or Y, depending on whether you hear the beep or not. Y is usually more expensive, whereas X is usually free, depending on your network and your particular tariff.

    Please keep up.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    And everyone talking up this famous beep as a way to keep track of and control costs takes no account of people calling mobiles from landlines, who have absolutely no way to know the cost of a call to a mobile in advance.


  • #38
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    I know exactly how much it costs per minute to call a mobile number from my UPC landline.


  • #39
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Please keep up.

    Already ahead of you. Within four clicks, I was able to easily see what eircom charge for calls to mobiles.


  • #40
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Already ahead of you. Within four clicks, I was able to easily see what eircom charge for calls to mobiles.
    gambiaman wrote: »
    I know exactly how much it costs per minute to call a mobile number from my UPC landline.

    You may happen to be on a tariff that charges the same rate for calls to all Irish mobiles. It's very common for landline tariffs to have different rates for calls to different mobile networks.

    For example, I'm on a Vodafone at Home tariff which includes 200 minutes to Vodafone mobiles per month - calls to other mobile networks are 20c/min. So, when I call a mobile from my landline, the call might be free, or it could cost 20c/minute and I have no way of knowing which until I get the bill.


  • #41
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Give you what info? They don't give you the information to know in advance what a call to a mobile phone will cost, if you don't already know what network it's on.

    you dont really seem to be understanding the part where mobile calls are the same charge no matter what network they're on, it doesnt matter, it goes by what your plan details are


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  • #42
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    krudler wrote: »
    you dont really seem to be understanding the part where mobile calls are the same charge no matter what network they're on, it doesnt matter, it goes by what your plan details are

    And you don't seem to understand that many landline tariffs have different rates for calls to different mobile networks - this is especially common on business tariffs, where very often each mobile network is charged at a completely different rate. It's also true for some consumer tariffs, including my own, as I mentioned above.


  • #43
    TeaServer
    Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭TeaServer


    I cannot believe that people are still arguing over this. The original question has been answered several times.

    Any subscriber on any network has the following details provided when they sign-up for the service:
    1. Cost to on-net
    2. Cost to off-net
    3. Cost to landlines
    4. Cost to mobiles (if a landline customer)

    The people wanting to know the specific network would be the first people to complain if you had to decode a series of beeps for each operator or had to listen to an announcement before every call.

    The simplist solution is the solution in place today. A simple beep to indicate if the number is off-net (when the dialed number has the same network prefix as your provider, but has ported out.)

    If your provider have different rates to different mobile providers then I would say that this is something you need to address with your provider. The regulations in place are for consumers, not businesses.

    /T


  • #44
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    TeaServer wrote: »
    I cannot believe that people are still arguing over this. The original question has been answered several times.

    The claimed solution doesn't seem to work for the OP.
    gebbel wrote: »
    I don't hear a beep when I'm calling my sister or my mate on my phone . . . This is how I got caught out. Where is the bloody beep!!
    TeaServer wrote: »
    The simplist solution is the solution in place today. A simple beep to indicate if the number is off-net (when the dialed number has the same network prefix as your provider, but has ported out.)

    It would be equally simple to provide public access to the database of mobile numbers and their associated networks, without any personally identifying information, say on the ComReg website. The arguments made in this thread that this would somehow be a breach of personal privacy are completely groundless.
    TeaServer wrote: »
    If your provider have different rates to different mobile providers then I would say that this is something you need to address with your provider.

    How? Should I ask Vodafone to stop giving me the 200 free minutes a month to Vodafone mobiles?
    TeaServer wrote: »
    The regulations in place are for consumers, not businesses.

    Huh? That's news to me - and to ComReg:

    ComReg enables competition in the communications sector by facilitating market entry through a general authorisation to provide networks and services and by regulating access to networks so as to develop effective choice for consumers both business and residential . . . .Our activities are geared to operators and business & residential users of communications services.


  • #45
    TeaServer
    Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭TeaServer


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    The claimed solution doesn't seem to work for the OP.
    Ok, I have no way of verifying this. I know the off-net tone works for me.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    It would be equally simple to provide public access to the database of mobile numbers and their associated networks, without any personally identifying information, say on the ComReg website. The arguments made in this thread that this would somehow be a breach of personal privacy are completely groundless.
    Simple - yes. Convenient = no.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    How? Should I ask Vodafone to stop giving me the 200 free minutes a month to Vodafone mobiles?
    I expect you get the off-net tone for all mobile calls to 087 and ported out. Otherwise you must assume the calls are not free.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Huh? That's news to me - and to ComReg:

    ComReg enables competition in the communications sector by facilitating market entry through a general authorisation to provide networks and services and by regulating access to networks so as to develop effective choice for consumers both business and residential . . . .Our activities are geared to operators and business & residential users of communications services.

    Fair point. I didn't realise this was the case for business too. But in principla the same tone method should work.

    /T


  • #46
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Repeating something that isn't the answer to my question and bolding it and underlining it shows great capability with boards.ie formatting but doesn't answer my question. Why don't you colour it as well? Perhaps you should focus on the issue, not on show off formatting.

    I simply want to know how much a call will cost me before I decide to make it. An easily overlooked beep half way after the call is dialled is not a proper response to that requirement. Mobile telephony is almost unique in that you cannot ascertain the cost until half through the process. Ths restriction of information suits mobile providers as it prevents me easily getting an O2 sim to ring O2 numbers and a Vodafone sim to ring Vodafone numbers.

    I don't get how you still feel your question hasn't answered. But if answering you in purple letters would help, I can arrange same.

    Seriously though, why do you want to know what network someone is? All you need to know is what it will cost you. Which is off net rate x number of minutes. It's not hard!

    In any event, I highly doubt there is any central database, certainly in my two years working for a mobile network in this country I've never come across one ;) Even if one did exist, it would be in breach of the data protection act for me to tell a customer on demand what network a certain number belongs to; so that idea is void.


  • #47
    4ndroid
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭4ndroid


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    It would be equally simple to provide public access to the database of mobile numbers and their associated networks, without any personally identifying information, say on the ComReg website. The arguments made in this thread that this would somehow be a breach of personal privacy are completely groundless.

    Yeah except that they're not. I give my number to who I choose as do most. I dont want Joe Salesman looking up a database cold-calling just cause they have access or some scammer goin through the list playing the "law-of-average" on getting money and conning people, because this is the reality of the world we live in.

    Learn the prices for on-net and off-net, ask the people you talk to what network they're on and if unsure....text. It's usually cheaper.

    Some of your posts are laughable.


  • #48
    ostrich
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ostrich


    sdeire wrote: »
    I don't get how you still feel your question hasn't answered. But if answering you in purple letters would help, I can arrange same.

    Seriously though, why do you want to know what network someone is? All you need to know is what it will cost you. Which is off net rate x number of minutes. It's not hard!

    In any event, I highly doubt there is any central database, certainly in my two years working for a mobile network in this country I've never come across one ;) Even if one did exist, it would be in breach of the data protection act for me to tell a customer on demand what network a certain number belongs to; so that idea is void.

    The OP should find this website helpful I believe;)
    http://mobile-status.com


  • #49
    4ndroid
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭4ndroid


    ostrich wrote: »
    The OP should find this website helpful I believe;)
    http://mobile-status.com


    Yeah terms and conditions are in German or something.

    http://mobile-status.com/agb.html

    Doesnt look legit but thats my opinion.


  • #50
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    TeaServer wrote: »
    I expect you get the off-net tone for all mobile calls to 087 and ported out. Otherwise you must assume the calls are not free.

    There is no off-net tone for calls from my landline, which is where I get the 200 free minutes to Vodafone mobiles.
    TeaServer wrote: »
    Fair point. I didn't realise this was the case for business too. But in principla the same tone method should work.

    Again, I'm talking about calls from landlines - there is no off-net tone.
    sdeire wrote: »
    ISeriously though, why do you want to know what network someone is? All you need to know is what it will cost you. Which is off net rate x number of minutes. It's not hard!

    As has already been explained several times, if you have more than one phone, a dual SIM phone, or a multi SIM GSM gateway, why wouldn't you want to optimise your call rates?
    sdeire wrote: »
    IIn any event, I highly doubt there is any central database, certainly in my two years working for a mobile network in this country I've never come across one ;)

    How else would operators avoid duplication of numbers?
    sdeire wrote: »
    Even if one did exist, it would be in breach of the data protection act for me to tell a customer on demand what network a certain number belongs to; so that idea is void.

    Mobile operators already tell customers what network each number they call is on - it shows up on the bill after you make the call. If that's not a data protection issue, why is it an issue before the call is made?
    4ndroid wrote: »
    Yeah except that they're not. I give my number to who I choose as do most. I dont want Joe Salesman looking up a database cold-calling just cause they have access or some scammer goin through the list playing the "law-of-average" on getting money and conning people, because this is the reality of the world we live in.

    How can knowing what mobile network a given number is on help cold callers or fraudsters? I'm not suggesting any personal information be made available.
    ostrich wrote: »
    The OP should find this website helpful I believe;)
    http://mobile-status.com

    It doesn't work.


  • #51
    4ndroid
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭4ndroid


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    How can knowing what mobile network a given number is on help cold callers or fraudsters? I'm not suggesting any personal information be made available.

    Neither am I, but you said "It would be equally simple to provide public access to the database of mobile numbers and their associated networks"

    But if its page and page and page,etc, of numbers publically available (this is what it sounds like you're suggesting) then coldcallers and fraudsters have access to a database of opportunity. Yes, I realise that a regular phonebook is publicly available but to me mobile numbers are far more personal. I dont want to argue over something that doesnt exist but I'd rather the mobile networks did something internally between themselves to indicate off-net/on-net calls but they probably dont wanna do anything to fix it cos to them it aint broke.


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  • #52
    TeaServer
    Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭TeaServer


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    There is no off-net tone for calls from my landline, which is where I get the 200 free minutes to Vodafone mobiles.
    Ok. Then this is a specific problem that your provider has. Perhaps they offer an alternative method to check the status of a portable number. I know Meteor offer a service where you can SMS the number to 50004 and the system responds to tell you if the number is a Meteor number or not.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Again, I'm talking about calls from landlines - there is no off-net tone.
    I'm not certain, but I believe our phone services at work are with Eircom, and there is definitely an off-net tone calling certain numbers. (That may be a feature of our PABX though)
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    How else would operators avoid duplication of numbers?
    Each operator is only allowed issue new numbers in their licensed range, they mange all the numbers in their own range.

    As an aside, there is a central DB for all Irish portable numbers that each operator periodically syncs with to ensure that their own individual DBs are updated with the latest network ID of portable numbers.

    /T


  • #53
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    There is no off-net tone for calls from my landline, which is where I get the 200 free minutes to Vodafone mobiles.



    Again, I'm talking about calls from landlines - there is no off-net tone.

    this topic isnt about landlines AT ALL, you're the one whinging about landlines, the op is talking about off net calls on an o2 number, if you're paying different rates for different mobile calls on a landline you're being screwed, talk to your provider.
    How else would operators avoid duplication of numbers?

    what about duplicate numbers? its possible to have the exact same number just with an 086 0r 087 prefix, its even possible to have them on the same account I've seen it on business accounts that have 0851234567, 0861234567 and 0871234567 all on the same account on the same network, rare, but possible.


  • #54
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    How else would operators avoid duplication of numbers?

    While a number can be moved between networks, it can only ever originate with the network that uses its prefix. An 087 number could be with Meteor now, have been with O2 before that - but it started life with Vodafone at some stage (or its predecessor, Eircell).
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Mobile operators already tell customers what network each number they call is on - it shows up on the bill after you make the call. If that's not a data protection issue, why is it an issue before the call is made?

    On my phone bill, no it doesn't...have one in front of me here and it says "other network". Can't say which network I'm with because I work for them but I simply know that if a customer comes in and asks "is X number on your network" I'm not allowed to tell them.


  • #55
    gebbel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,354 ✭✭✭gebbel


    For me now, the issue is that O2 seem to have removed this beep tone when I call other networks with their 086 prefix. It was there before and it is not now.

    Or else my handset is faulty, which is unlikely.


  • #56
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    but I simply know that if a customer comes in and asks "is X number on your network" I'm not allowed to tell them.

    Right, so "data protection" means that you will not tell a customer how much a call to a particular number will cost. Great stuff altogether.


  • #57
    cast_iron
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭cast_iron


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Right, so "data protection" means that you will not tell a customer how much a call to a particular number will cost. Great stuff altogether.
    The Data Protection Act means companies cannot give out any information about someone's account without said persons permission. that's not overly unreasonable.

    What people here are suggesting is that we invent a national database of whose number is on whose network all because there seems to be a somewhat isolated problem with the OP's phone/network where he doesn't get the off network tone before a call.

    That's great stuff altogether.


  • #58
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    interesting one this, as i myself have been caught out more than once as a prepay customer having free meteor to meteor calls, or customers i thought were meteor.

    but anyway, i have a second number here that was ported to 3 from vodafone. i had heard of this beep signal before but had never heard it. so, just to experiment, i called my 3 number, expecting to hear a beep to say the 087 prefix had switched network. NO BEEP.

    so, i rang my wife's meteor number, and only then i copped, so i tried my own 3 number again-

    the only discernable difference was that calling my 3 number had a longer initial first ring than when i called my wife's meteor number.

    in all honesty i would never have noticed this if it hadnt been for this thread and even that is only because i was listening intently for a beep.

    incidentally that mobile status website DOES work, as it was able to identify that my number had been ported fron Vodafone to Hutchinson 3G...


  • #59
    4ndroid
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭4ndroid


    xsiborg wrote: »

    incidentally that mobile status website DOES work, as it was able to identify that my number had been ported fron Vodafone to Hutchinson 3G...

    And youve probly just signed yourself up for loads of premium rate services and crap routines etc. the germans are mad for that shiz :D


  • #60
    4ndroid
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭4ndroid


    xsiborg wrote: »

    incidentally that mobile status website DOES work, as it was able to identify that my number had been ported fron Vodafone to Hutchinson 3G...

    And youve probly just signed yourself up for loads of premium rate services and crap ringtones etc. the germans are mad for that shiz :D


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  • #61
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    cast_iron wrote: »
    The Data Protection Act means companies cannot give out any information about someone's account without said persons permission. that's not overly unreasonable.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Mobile operators already tell customers what network each number they call is on - it shows up on the bill after you make the call. If that's not a data protection issue, why is it an issue before the call is made?

    It really would be nice to get an answer to this question from all the posters who insist there is a data protection issue.

    If you were patient and determined, you could even work out the network for a given number if you yourself had a phone on each network. Just call the number in question from each network's phone in turn. Whichever one didn't give the off-net beep is on the dialled number's network.

    So the fact is, the mobile operators already give this information out all the time.


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