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Will the 'Troubles' ever happen again in N.Ireland?

124

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    junder wrote: »
    I dont march with any groups linked to loyalist paramilitary


    Thats like saying junder ,when marching down the falls road for the easter parade I dont march with republicans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I disagree and so do hundreds of thousands of other people. We all know about the slogan and its meaning who live up here.


    Most Republicans I know and what I have read and from my time living here, are very inclusive of the loyalist and unionist tradition and know quite well that you aren't going away, and welcome that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    i do think that ''the troubles'' will happen again.

    now that money has dried up and the north aint so awash with money peoples mindset begin to change.

    but i do hope that it doesnt happen .. we need to move on and resolve things democratically.

    i think people should focus there energies on social & civil injustices up north and in the south.... a 32 republic will happen all in its own good time.. if the majority want it.


    If you dont mind what do you mean by that above in bold ? as in my mind money had nothing to do with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    release... money had nothing to do with it?

    open your mind to the reality of northern politics.

    money had a lot to do with it.

    the uk govt to their credit pumped the north with funding for investment to which services and things that really matter for people improved dramatically.

    id even go as far as saying that money was a bargaining tool for both the sinners and dup and for what its worth sdlp up

    once the people seen what peace can bring... which to a majority was a better society and services to live in people no longer had the want for ''war'' or ''trouble''

    on another note have a think about the following

    1. Northern bank job.
    2. Canary Wharf bombing.

    IT HAD A LOT TO DO WITH MONEY ON ALL SIDES ... ESP THE BRITS


    Open my mind to the reality of northern politics are you having a laugh ?

    The present troubles started with basic civil rights,with catholics being treated as second class citizens by the ruling unionist government,For you to come along and say it was all about money is insulting and very naive,You can read this it might help you :mad:

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=the%20troubles&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThe_Troubles&ei=qWF9T8TnMsiJhQf_y72pDA&usg=AFQjCNEj-L4Fls1GL6NTBjT87WhZRVKCiA

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=the%20troubles&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CEEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fhistory%2Frecent%2Ftroubles%2F&ei=qWF9T8TnMsiJhQf_y72pDA&usg=AFQjCNHDmSs-EaEkse59a9dSBvpCFD0w8g

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=the%20troubles&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CEgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fnorthernireland%2Fpage%2F0%2C12494%2C1569841%2C00.html&ei=qWF9T8TnMsiJhQf_y72pDA&usg=AFQjCNFp4XgQzNzn5gsqOiTeHSWKiZbRIw

    Everything is not based on or for monetary gain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Kingsmill was a sectarian murder with no political links. The PIRA disowned and denounced the group who carried it out and they were never heard from again.

    except that the weapons used by the 'mysterious group' were used by PIRA before the attack, and then by PIRA after the attack.

    but i'm sure that this is a coincidence, and that in South Armagh people casually leave assualt rifles lying around for others to use on a 'please clean and return after use' basis...

    does PIRA - and its apologists - really believe people are quite that stupid?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    my apologies realise if i am insulting... and i take back the all about money but i strongly feel that it had a lot to do with money

    yes catholic equality and basic civil was a major issue which was achieved eventually.

    everything is not bad for monetary gain - that my friend is my ideals but unfortunately we live in capitalist world where everybody has a price.. everybody.

    Apoligies accepted no probs :)

    Personally I think your ideals are wrong and not everybody or everything can be bought and bartered for.
    Take the up and coming vote for Independence for Scotland,Economically it looks like suicide for Scotland to try and go it alone,But yet there is a large body of people there who wish it to be and imo good look to them,and yes everybody has a price but what price is freedom :D:D








    This last part is from a film I think :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    realies wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    I dont march with any groups linked to loyalist paramilitary


    Thats like saying junder ,when marching down the falls road for the easter parade I dont march with republicans.

    Niether the band I am a member of nor the lodge we parade with are linked to paramilitary so exactly how is it like your Easter parade analogy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Madam


    realies what i am getting at here is as follows.

    what is of more priority:

    another 30 years of war to try get a 32 republic

    or

    working in a brit occupied and administred country that in reality gives you and your family a decent standard of life

    I'm sure like the rest of us realies does that for themselves:rolleyes: Surely it'st the other way around - we work for the country we live in to keep it going, ie, taxes and community!

    As for NI returning to the bad old days - hopefully it won't happen, maybe the odd 'skirmish' by the would be terrorists just to show they can still flex their oul muscles:( NI is moving on - kicking and screaming by some but still moving with the times!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    maccored wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    I am not in the orange but I am in a flute band, one that is 130 Years old and I am very much looking forward to the 12th this year

    Do us a favour and rip down any of those K.A.T. flags on the bonfires. Or give out profusely to anyone you hear singing bad things about the rest of us :p

    Of course I will as long as your prepared to rip Down the KAH flags from the internment bonfires


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm sorry, thats just nonsense. You've made a number of extreme and specific claims thus far and have failed to provide a single piece of evidence to back them up.

    The clear statements of Unionists and Loyalists of how they would react in the case of British state withdrawal dont count as evidence? The way that the UUP came together with the DUP during the Anglo-Irish Agreement crisis at a time with the DUP was forming its own armed wing to prepare for full scale civil war?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTbebWrj560

    The idea that the British state withdraws and everybody than would have a group hug which Sinn Fein officially promoted is nonsense.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    realies wrote: »
    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I disagree and so do hundreds of thousands of other people. We all know about the slogan and its meaning who live up here.


    Most Republicans I know and what I have read and from my time living here, are very inclusive of the loyalist and unionist tradition and know quite well that you aren't going away, and welcome that.

    Sure they are, that's why when ever the orange order is mentioned on this site everybody is respectful of it. Experience has taught me that must republicans respect boils down 'we respect your traditions as long as it's the ones we tell you, you can have'


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    junder wrote: »
    Sure they are, that's why when ever the orange order is mentioned on this site everybody is respectful of it. Experience has taught me that must republicans respect boils down 'we respect your traditions as long as it's the ones we tell you, you can have'

    Asking Catholics or people from a Catholic background to respect the Orange Order to respect the Orange Order given its stated goals and history is almost like asking a Palestinian to respect AIPAC or an Ulster Scot to respect to the Provisional movement. I can understand your attitude to militant Irish Republicanism but I find it hard to understand why you insist in being aggressive to British Catholics like myself who dont wish you any harm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    junder wrote: »
    Sure they are, that's why when ever the orange order is mentioned on this site everybody is respectful of it. Experience has taught me that must republicans respect boils down 'we respect your traditions as long as it's the ones we tell you, you can have'

    Asking Catholics or people from a Catholic background to respect the Orange Order to respect the Orange Order given its stated goals and history is almost like asking a Palestinian to respect AIPAC or an Ulster Scot to respect to the Provisional movement. I can understand your attitude to militant Irish Republicanism but I find it hard to understand why you insist in being aggressive to British Catholics like myself who dont wish you any harm.


    In what way am I being aggressive to British catholics or any other nationality of catholics? I disagree with many parts of the roman catholic faith but I have no issue with people who practice the faith. On a side note I disagree with Organised religion in general.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    junder wrote: »
    Niether the band I am a member of nor the lodge we parade with are linked to paramilitary so exactly how is it like your Easter parade analogy?


    Are all lodges not linked to the Grand lodge of Ireland ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    realies wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    Niether the band I am a member of nor the lodge we parade with are linked to paramilitary so exactly how is it like your Easter parade analogy?


    Are all lodges not linked to the Grand lodge of Ireland ?

    The grand lodge or Ireland is not linked to
    Any paramilitary groups


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    junder wrote: »
    Sure they are, that's why when ever the orange order is mentioned on this site everybody is respectful of it. Experience has taught me that must republicans respect boils down 'we respect your traditions as long as it's the ones we tell you, you can have'


    Experience has taught me that for the main part the OO is and certainly was a sectarian and well connected organisation to loyalist paramilitaries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    junder wrote: »
    In what way am I being aggressive to British catholics or any other nationality of catholics? I disagree with many parts of the roman catholic faith but I have no issue with people who practice the faith. On a side note I disagree with Organised religion in general.

    You might not know this but the Orange Order was pretty active on the mainland during the 19 th century, its whole purpose is to stop any Catholic (Anglo-Catholic as well as Roman if you examine its history) influence in public life; second after that it celebrates a battle which robbed British Catholics of their religious liberty when Protestant (at least Anglican- William of Orange cracked down a bit on the Puritans after he had won) religious liberty was in no way under threat but not only that which led to a horrible disaster for Southern Ireland which in turn led to it separating from the Union and destruction of much of its culture though thankfully a lot of the bad feeling between the Irish and the English has dissipated. Given the circumstances how are 12 th marches not a celebration of Protestant ascendency over Catholics? How is celebrating it not aggressive?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    under wrote: »
    The grand lodge or Ireland is not linked to
    Any paramilitary groups


    Maybe there not linked directly to paramilitary groups,But they certainly don't do themselves any favors when there marching with some of the bands named after leading UVF/UDA loyalist paramilitary members,Are they not linking themselfs and showing support for such ?

    Many nationalists have shown opposition to Orange marches due to the perception that some of the bands hired to appear at their marches openly display support for loyalist paramilitary groups, either by carrying paramilitary flags or having paramilitary names and emblems on their banners.[73]
    The banner of Old Boyne Island Heroes Orange lodge bears the names of John Bingham and Shankill Butcher Robert Bates, who were both members.[74] Another Shankill Butcher, Eddie McIlwaine, was pictured taking part in an Orange parade in 2003 with a bannerette of dead UVF volunteer Brian Robinson (who himself was an Orangeman).[75]
    Other prominent loyalists who were also members of the Orange Order included Gusty Spence,[76] Robert Bates,[77] John Bingham,[78] Richard Jameson[79], Billy McCaughey,[80] Ernie Elliott,[81] and Robert McConnell.[82]


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    realies wrote: »
    Experience has taught me that for the main part the OO is and certainly was a sectarian and well connected organisation to loyalist paramilitaries.

    The OO has had a similar relationship to Loyalist paramilitaries that the GAA has with Republican ones. Its unjust to label the OO in general as being hand in glove with the UVF, etc just like its unjust to label the GAA as being the same with violent Republicanism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Aaah were gone way of topic here again. I am leaving it junder as we will never agree,Good luck and have a nice day.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    realies wrote: »
    under wrote: »
    The grand lodge or Ireland is not linked to
    Any paramilitary groups


    Maybe there not linked directly to paramilitary groups,But they certainly don't do themselves any favors when there marching with some of the bands named after leading UVF/UDA loyalist paramilitary members,Are they not linking themselfs and showing support for such ?

    Many nationalists have shown opposition to Orange marches due to the perception that some of the bands hired to appear at their marches openly display support for loyalist paramilitary groups, either by carrying paramilitary flags or having paramilitary names and emblems on their banners.[73]
    The banner of Old Boyne Island Heroes Orange lodge bears the names of John Bingham and Shankill Butcher Robert Bates, who were both members.[74] Another Shankill Butcher, Eddie McIlwaine, was pictured taking part in an Orange parade in 2003 with a bannerette of dead UVF volunteer Brian Robinson (who himself was an Orangeman).[75]
    Other prominent loyalists who were also members of the Orange Order included Gusty Spence,[76] Robert Bates,[77] John Bingham,[78] Richard Jameson[79], Billy McCaughey,[80] Ernie Elliott,[81] and Robert McConnell.[82]

    The choice of band is down to
    Individual lodges and as I already said
    Niether my band nor the lodge we are walking with are linked to paramilitary groups. However I find it a bit rich that republicans complain about alleged paramilitary links of important unionist / loyalist traditions and yet justify the naming of say gaa grounds and gaa cups after republican paramilitarys


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    I think that UKIP have Ulster right- non-sectarianism and respect for Irish culture which they rightly think should be promoted along with opposition to Provos being in government. However I think their economic liberalism would be a disaster for Ulster.

    A lot more carrot as well as a lot more stick should have been used against militant Republicanism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    junder wrote: »
    In what way am I being aggressive to British catholics or any other nationality of catholics? I disagree with many parts of the roman catholic faith but I have no issue with people who practice the faith. On a side note I disagree with Organised religion in general.

    You might not know this but the Orange Order was pretty active on the mainland during the 19 th century, its whole purpose is to stop any Catholic (Anglo-Catholic as well as Roman if you examine its history) influence in public life; second after that it celebrates a battle which robbed British Catholics of their religious liberty when Protestant (at least Anglican- William of Orange cracked down a bit on the Puritans after he had won) religious liberty was in no way under threat but not only that which led to a horrible disaster for Southern Ireland which in turn led to it separating from the Union and destruction of much of its culture though thankfully a lot of the bad feeling between the Irish and the English has dissipated. Given the circumstances how are 12 th marches not a celebration of Protestant ascendency over Catholics? How is celebrating it not aggressive?

    My band will be escorting an English lodge in parade in London this June to celebrate the queens jubilee, is that an aggression action against Catholics?


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    junder wrote: »
    My band will be escorting an English lodge in parade in London this June to celebrate the queens jubilee, is that an aggression action against Catholics?

    Are Republican commemoration aggressive towards the Ulster British?


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    junder wrote: »
    My band will be escorting an English lodge in parade in London this June to celebrate the queens jubilee, is that an aggression action against Catholics?

    Are EDL demonstrations aggressive towards Muslims?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    junder wrote: »
    My band will be escorting an English lodge in parade in London this June to celebrate the queens jubilee, is that an aggression action against Catholics?

    Are Republican commemoration aggressive towards the Ulster British?

    What kind of republican parade?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    junder wrote: »
    My band will be escorting an English lodge in parade in London this June to celebrate the queens jubilee, is that an aggression action against Catholics?

    Are EDL demonstrations aggressive towards Muslims?

    Is celebrating the queens jubliee the same as a edl parade


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The clear statements of Unionists and Loyalists of how they would react in the case ............promoted is nonsense.

    You posted that the Provisional movement carried on the campaign in the belief that the conflict would become yet greater. You have yet to present any evidence to back that up, or any of your other far fetched claims.


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Nodin wrote: »
    You posted that the Provisional movement carried on the campaign in the belief that the conflict would become yet greater.

    Are you seriously telling me that they believed that British state withdrawal would not make things ten times worse?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Are you seriously telling me that they believed that British state withdrawal would not make things ten times worse?
    To be fair republican groups helf meetings with loyalists and protestant community leaders before they were openly talking with the British government.
    To be honest, if the british had been defeated by force alone there would have been loyalist resistance simular to the 1920's and burning of bombay street in the '60's.
    If an end to British involvement in Ireland comes about peacefully there is likely to be less Loyalist resistance since the atmosphere would alloy for inclusive talks.
    If you look at the old Sinn Fein/OIRA Eire Nua model it shows how Ulster protestants would not be in a minority in Ireland since each provence would have its own local government in a federal system.


This discussion has been closed.
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