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Head Shop in Roscommon

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    #62
    Theponylady
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭Theponylady


    Chipboard wrote: »
    No, its not the same thing, its a similar thing. I'll say it again - an analogy doesn't have to be identical to be relevant.

    You are talking apples and apple tarts-they aren't close enough to make the anology useful.



    Soooo, if we change the laws, everyone will be doing drugs and the world will turn to sh1t. Or, is it, its ok for one person to do it but if everyone does it there will be chaos. My point was that just because there is an exception to a rule, it doesn't mean we should change the rule. What was your point?

    My point being, the roads in Ireland can't support "everyone" driving at high speeds, they aren't built for high speed travel. We know for a fact if it was legal to drive faster, a lot of people, particularly younger inexperienced drivers, would be going a lot faster, and would be killing themselves and others. It's an anology that doesn't work, is not similar to what we are discussing, and has nothing to do with what we are discussing.




    The headshops are being dealt with. You can't do much about someone who gets a kick out of sniffing jeyes fluid or sticking nails in himself but then again unless he's a very good marketeer and he manages to convince a lot of people to join him, its not a big problem.

    My point being-how is this helping? People walking into those shops and buying stuff are also often buying stuff illegally. I'd rather see them buying stuff legally, paying tax on it, and having them know exactly what they are sniffing etc, then have them buy stuff from some dodgy guy on a street corner who is going to pull a gun and shoot at some other dodgy guy on another street corner-possibly shooting me or you while he's at it. Putting head shops out of business isn't going to stop ANYONE from putting foriegn substances into their bodies, it just changes where they get it and how it's sold.
    The Gardai, judges etc are subject to the same laws as the rest of us. Just because its not possible to achieve 100% enforcement, doesn't mean you just give up.

    True. However, humans have been self medicating since the beginning of time, and will always continue to do so. I would prefer no one use illegal drugs, or abuse legal drugs. But since I know that's not going to happen, and I know that when drugs are illegal and are driven underground, and I know a very dangerous nasty underground criminal system that kills many many people will grow, I would rather see drug legal. And I'd rather see tax revenue from those drug sales going to a good education/mental health program, so FEWER kids will be inclined to start taking drugs.

    One of the most socially acceptable of drugs. I personally am not terribly concerned about cannabis. Lets talk about the fun stuff, the stuff that makes you think you should beat an innocent newborn baby to death.

    So, you DO consider cannabis to be socially acceptable? Do you believe it should be legal, as alcohol is?



    Not so. Many of the drugs sold by headshops are not designed for the purpose they are sold for and it even says so on the packaging. Furthermore they are not tested or certified as being safe.

    No arguement from me there. It says pretty clearly on the majority of packaging "NOT INTENDED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION". Seems to me, educating people of the real dangers of doing that stuff would be more helpful than banning people from buying it.


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    #63
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    Facepalm

    Doesn't work on boards. Make a valid argument or don't.

    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    Majorities of ignorant un-educated assholes

    Thats democracy. If you don't like it go elsewhere.

    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    I wouldn't dream about telling them not to take drugs, that would be hypocritical

    In my view, its ok to be hypocritical when you're a parent. You don't want you kids to learn the hard way, especially if you learnt the hard way.

    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    Your backward approach changes nothing, prohibition hasn't worked for the last 50 years and all its done is create a big market for criminals. There are thousands of non-criminals out there who recreationally take drugs and don't rob or steal to provide for them. Instead of campaigning to close the headshops we should be regulating them, we should be watching what they sell, to whom and we should make them display ingredients on the packaging. We should also educate our children of the dangers and effects of drink and drugs, but we first need to educate the ignorant majority who are keeping this country from moving forward.

    You want the minority to tell the majority how to live. It doesn't work like that.


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    #64
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    Theponylady wrote: »
    You are talking apples and apple tarts-they aren't close enough to make the anology useful.

    The original analogy was perfectly useful, but you have dug a huge hole which you can't get out of and you've starting concentrating on the analogy rather then the issue at hand. You're correct - this isn't about speeding cars, its about people thinking that we should change the law to suit the desires of a minority.
    Theponylady wrote: »
    My point being, the roads in Ireland can't support "everyone" driving at high speeds, they aren't built for high speed travel. We know for a fact if it was legal to drive faster, a lot of people, particularly younger inexperienced drivers, would be going a lot faster, and would be killing themselves and others. It's an anology that doesn't work, is not similar to what we are discussing, and has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

    True. See above.
    Theponylady wrote: »
    My point being-how is this helping? People walking into those shops and buying stuff are also often buying stuff illegally. I'd rather see them buying stuff legally, paying tax on it, and having them know exactly what they are sniffing etc, then have them buy stuff from some dodgy guy on a street corner who is going to pull a gun and shoot at some other dodgy guy on another street corner-possibly shooting me or you while he's at it. Putting head shops out of business isn't going to stop ANYONE from putting foriegn substances into their bodies, it just changes where they get it and how it's sold.

    They don't have to buy off the the dodgy guy. They can have some self respect.
    Theponylady wrote: »
    True. However, humans have been self medicating since the beginning of time, and will always continue to do so. I would prefer no one use illegal drugs, or abuse legal drugs. But since I know that's not going to happen, and I know that when drugs are illegal and are driven underground, and I know a very dangerous nasty underground criminal system that kills many many people will grow, I would rather see drug legal. And I'd rather see tax revenue from those drug sales going to a good education/mental health program, so FEWER kids will be inclined to start taking drugs.

    Prostitution and murder and several other undesirable actions have been around longer than drugs and yes it is illegal to commit murder and this has driven it underground. You have to go to some dodgy guy who lives in a bad area, and probably owns a gun, but thats ok. Thats as it should be. Be assured, the tax wouldn't go to good education or mental health programs, for the same reason that car tax doesn't go to build roads - because the government needs the tax to pay for all the Mercs. Even if it did, I don't see the logic in creating a problem and using the tax revenue to try and solve it.
    Theponylady wrote: »
    So, you DO consider cannabis to be socially acceptable? Do you believe it should be legal, as alcohol is?

    I wouldn't be worried if it was but I have no desire to legalise it. I know what your getting at - if I say its ok you'll use that as the thin end of the wedge to argue that other drugs are too. I recognise that many fully functioning people use it but I don't think it in enhances their lives. Its up to them. I don't care what people do behind closed doors (within reason) as long as it does no harm to innocent people (especially children).
    Theponylady wrote: »
    No arguement from me there. It says pretty clearly on the majority of packaging "NOT INTENDED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION". Seems to me, educating people of the real dangers of doing that stuff would be more helpful than banning people from buying it.

    Maybe they shouldn't have abused their position when they had it good.


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    #65
    PogMoThoin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    Chipboard wrote: »
    In my view, its ok to be hypocritical when you're a parent. You don't want you kids to learn the hard way, especially if you learnt the hard way.

    Learn what the hard way? Whats there to learn, that taking drugs can be enjoyable? That a man and a woman can go out for a night out taking them to enjoy themselves and be intimate? That its possible for people to gather together under the influence to dance and not fight. That its possible to take drugs and still live a normal life?
    Chipboard wrote: »
    They don't have to buy off the the dodgy guy. .....................You have to go to some dodgy guy who lives in a bad area, and probably owns a gun, but thats ok.

    Thats where You're completely wrong, there are no such thing as drug pushers, there is no shady character, people buy drugs off friends, most often people they've known for years.

    You have no idea, honestly.


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    #66
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    Learn what the hard way? Whats there to learn

    Good for you that knew it all from the age of 2. Are you honestly saying that you haven't learned anything in your time on earth. I think you're twisting the truth to suit you're argument again. I would be first to admit that I didn't always do things the best way, but I learned from my mistakes and I'd hope to pass some of it on to my sons.

    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    Thats where You're completely wrong, there are no such thing as drug pushers, there is no shady character, people buy drugs off friends, most often people they've known for years.

    You have no idea, honestly.

    and earlier...
    Theponylady wrote: »
    They don't realize that they just took millions in taxable revenue that the government could have used for drug awareness and rehab programs, and put it in the pockets of drug dealers. They may as well have given the bad guys the green light.

    Make up your mind. The drug dealer is your friend or he is a bad guy, or here's a novel idea, maybe your friends are bad guys.

    Or do you think that the guys burning down the headshops are doing it so that they will have the honour of supplying the drugs in the town. Their not in it for the money. Don't be so naive.


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    #67
    PogMoThoin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    Chipboard wrote: »
    Good for you that knew it all from the age of 2. Are you honestly saying that you haven't learned anything in your time on earth. I think you're twisting the truth to suit you're argument again. I would be first to admit that I didn't always do things the best way, but I learned from my mistakes and I'd hope to pass some of it on to my sons.

    Course, I've learned lots, but the vast majority of drug takers in this country do so and don't mess up their own lives or anyone elses. I grew up in a pub and saw first hand that alcohol causes a much greater threat to society. I was also a smoker and saw how unhealthy that made me. I pass this on to my children.
    Chipboard wrote: »
    Make up your mind. The drug dealer is your friend or he is a bad guy, or here's a novel idea, maybe your friends are bad guys.

    Or do you think that the guys burning down the headshops are doing it so that they will have the honour of supplying the drugs in the town. Their not in it for the money. Don't be so naive.

    You just quoted two different people :confused:

    Criminal gangs control the substances coming into this country, they have no direct dealings with the ordinary drug user who gets them in a "friend of a friend has this deal". You want to close the headshops and give the market back in the control of the criminal gangs or even worse have them down the alleyways sniffing tipp-ex thinners, lighter gas or any other aerosol they can get their hands on easily, this is what my generation were taking 20 yrs ago as there was a shortage of hash. Regulation is what we need, not close them down. Banning substances doesn't make them go away, everything sold in the headshops is available online anyway or there's always something better available from the criminal gangs. It also wont make people stop taking substances, they'll just find something else to take.

    The whole world is looking for a new approach, in Liverpool, Manchester and all over the UK, Police completely turn a blind eye to soft drugs, feel they don't cause a problem. Germany has de-criminalised cannabis and has it available in coffee shops like in Holland. Its looking like California are going to legalise cannabis very soon. Even a top UK Health advisor has argued that the risk of taking ecstasy was similar to horse riding. But in Ireland We are stuck in the dark ages


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    #68
    srfc19
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭srfc19


    Chipboard wrote: »


    I wouldn't be worried if it was but I have no desire to legalise it. I know what your getting at - if I say its ok you'll use that as the thin end of the wedge to argue that other drugs are too. I recognise that many fully functioning people use it but I don't think it in enhances their lives. Its up to them. I don't care what people do behind closed doors (within reason) as long as it does no harm to innocent people (especially children).


    But you don't think it enhances lives because you haven't seen the effects it can have. I have never seen someone have a few spliffs or take some pills and go out looking for trouble, it just doesn't happen. It can enhance a night in a big way, some people just want to enjoy themselves.
    The problem here is that people taking illegal drugs behind closed doors does do damage to innocent people through the actions of drug dealers, if these drug dealers were forced off the streets as they almost were before the closing of the head shops, the damage to innocent people could be severely limited.


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    #69
    Jamiekelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭Jamiekelly


    yessam wrote: »
    Donna,

    I applaude all the work you are doing in roscommon to highlight the dangers of the products being sold in the Head Shops. I also have young children and I do often wonder what will be ahead of then when they are teenagers.

    I am not sure that the closing of these Head Shops will do anything to curb the use of drugs in our villages and towns, after all drugs and different substances are around for a long number of years.

    Would you consider going down the road of licencing these shops and try and get some control on some of the drugs that are around.

    By licencing the shops you could;

    1. control who runs or manages the shop
    2. have licencing hours
    3. have all products to a standard
    4. ensure trading is only done in the shop
    5. strictly only over 18s or even 21s
    6. product liability

    Donna, as for delivery service, I heard it mentioned on the Joe Duffy radio programme.

    Actually, by these shops doing a delivery service, is,nt that the same as the drug pusher on the corner..

    Finally a protester that makes sense! They should be regulated and taxed appropriately. Since the actual ban now, drug dealers have made such a profit its unbelievable! and if it was taxed it could have helped create employment opportunities for your kids in the future! I seen a protester banner on the news a few months back that read "Just because it's legal, doesn't mean its safe!" Well DUH!!!!!


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    #70
    Jamiekelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭Jamiekelly


    Sorry for the double posting but I had to tell this guy where hes an idiot lol sorry I couldn't resist. The [] is the comment left by the guy im responding to, who was quoting another poster known as Theponylady

    Originally Posted by Theponylady
    I have MANY friends who are very respected good people. Doctors, solicitors, etc. And a large number use cannabis regularly.

    [I don't believe you. What kind of circles do you hang around in that you, who doesn't even drink, are surrounded by all these Hedonists? Suits your argument methinks.]

    I know 2 army soldiers that smoke weed on a regular basis and detox themselves before the planned medical and even get news on surprise medicals months before they happen so they can still keep their jobs. I also know a 48 year old mechanic who smokes weed everyday. Just because you don't deal with these "Hedonists" doesn't mean others don't aswell.


    Originally Posted by Theponylady
    But alcohol, a VERY dangerous drug that kills many people(including those who do not use it but are killed by others who do while they are driving cars, or who do insane things while drunk), and destroys many many lives(I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of severe alcoholics I know personally, who have destroyed their lives and often those of their families thanks to drink), is legal, while cannabis is not. What is the sense in that?

    [I'll say it again, that while everyone admits that alcohol does damage, you can't use it to justify even more damage.]

    Of course you can't. Because we DON'T want to do more damage. Most want it regulated. Take out the mephodrone and leave in the lightweight "joints" they sell. That didn't do much damage, only to stupid teens who didn't know how to handle themselves and would have most likely have done something worse if they were off their face on drink.


    Originally Posted by Theponylady
    Why is it that alcohol, which is dangerous, very mind altering, dangerous to unborn children if the mother is drinking, dangerous to any person in the vicinity of a drunk person, why is that okay, and many other relatively benign drugs are not? I have met alcoholics who were every bit as much a mess as those on heroin. I know of alcoholics who steal so they can go out on a binge. Where is the difference?

    [Do you feel in danger when you go into a pub?]

    That is the stupidest response I have ever heard (and i spend alot of time on youtube). Just because you don't feel in danger when you go into a pub, does not mean that something dangerous won't happen. Where is the most common place fights and brawls start? Pubs and night clubs. What are involved in the majority of these fights? Alcohol. Face the facts.


    Originally Posted by Theponylady
    I have met alcoholics who were every bit as much a mess as those on heroin.

    [Have you really met someone who is addicted to heroin?]

    What ****ing Utopia are you living in? Like I said before. Just because you don't know someone like that, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. Take a walk around the Curragh camp in Kildare or Athy. I have seen plenty of Heroin addicts in Dublin before.


    Originally Posted by Theponylady
    I find it terribly hippocritical to say "well, this drug is okay, cause everyone else is doing it, but this one isn't, cause less people are doing it".

    [I never said alcohol is ok. I said that it was socially acceptable. There's a difference.]

    So it doesn't matter if its dangerous as long as its "socially acceptable"? I actually lol'd when I read that originally.


    Originally Posted by Theponylady
    Either ban everything, or allow everything, and tax the heck out of it and use if for drug/alcohol education and rehab.

    [Even you don't believe this.]

    This is the main problem with "protesters" such as you. You want to tell people what they believe and what they should think. They can believe it if they want. Just because you don't want them to, doesn't mean they can't do it. Start respecting others. It will help you become more "socially acceptable" ;)

    Sorry for the length of the post but I had to reply to that poster. Sorry to any mod who sees the huge size of the post. I just hate people that don't want anyone to have their own opinion.


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    #71
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    I think you might want to consider retracting that comment about me being an idiot.

    I'm only going to ask once.


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    #72
    Jamiekelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭Jamiekelly


    Chipboard wrote: »
    I think you might want to consider retracting that comment about me being an idiot.

    I'm only going to ask once.

    Is it because you don't want me to express my opinion about you? Oh and don't worry, what I have posted is not against the rules in any way. Since I am not randomly calling you an idiot without backing up my claim it is not known as flaming and is my right to do so. I suppose you probably want to ban me from expressing my opinion since it is clear we are on opposite sides of the debate..

    P.S don't take it to heart. This thread is basically a debate now and to be honest I really wanted to get IBTL.


This discussion has been closed.
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