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Poll - Treatment of 97 yr old Erich Priebke

  • 06-10-2010 3:30pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭


    I thought this was an interesting story :

    http://roma.repubblica.it/cronaca/2010/10/04/foto/la_spesa_di_priebke-7720094/2/

    http://breakingnews.ie/world/fury-as-ex-ss-massacre-officer-allowed-to-shop-476673.html

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32883&sid=15de2e88e0252b8fba4e8a98deb24ae5

    130103.JPG


    A 97 year old man is serving a life sentence for 2 counts of murder. The terms of his sentence call for a house arrest with being permission to leave his home in order to attend his church, his doctor and shopping for things like food.

    His sentence relates to an incident in 24 March 1944 in which 33 SS Polizei men were killed by partisans. 345 civilians were then killed in retaliation.

    Erich Priebke admitted to shooting 2 civilians and assisting in the round up. His insistence was that he was following orders.

    Does anyone think it is jusfitied that a 97 yr old can leave house arrest to attend church, the doctor and to go food shopping ? Or would you disagree with him being permitted to leave his home to attend Doctor, Church and for food shopping ?

    Erich Priebke - House Arrest terms 28 votes

    Yes - he should be permitted to leave for shopping/ Doctor / church
    0%
    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    60%
    Manachthe_sycotoxofCJhaugheyTristramMahatma coattriskellMorlarFratton Fredpsycho-hopejonniebgood1TigerbabyGneezLeeg17R.Dub.FusilierFuinseogILA 17 votes
    Unsure -
    39%
    Agent Smithjam_mac_jambad2daboneSgt. SensibleSr. Pirotecnicleincararnhem44tfitzgeraldprinzHarryPotter41chainsaws 11 votes


«1

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    Always the same Lobby Groups Crying about Shoite like this, feckin sickens me, The Man was an SS Captain, Fair enough, but To cry foul about his being let out to go to the Supermarket, thats just petty and smallminded, but hey, who really expects more from the complainants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    from 2nd article

    Elan Steinberg:
    “Holocaust survivors have reacted with shock and disbelief to news that this convicted Nazi killer could be allowed shopping trips and other excursions although sentenced to life imprisonment for his crimes,”

    good old "Elan Stienberg", the daddy of all 'Holocaust hucksters' :rolleyes:
    why do i get the impression he's lying? (below)



    trustworthy ?

    our survey said "EH-ERRRRRR!!"

    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭chainsaws


    Unsure -
    Always the same Lobby Groups Crying about Shoite like this, feckin sickens me, The Man was an SS Captain, Fair enough, but To cry foul about his being let out to go to the Supermarket, thats just petty and smallminded, but hey, who really expects more from the complainants.

    The man is a mass murdering monster.:mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    I’m all for war criminals facing justice, but if Mr Steinberg wants to make a meaningful gesture with regards to punishing war criminals, he could begin by looking a little closer to home, instead of whinging about people who are long dead.

    What’s the point in punishing someone for something that happened 60 years ago, if you’re going to conveniently ignore what’s going on under your nose today.

    Some consistancy would be nice. Unfortunately, for humanity, Steinberg and his ilk are not interested in Justice, just his pound of flesh, his position of privilige, and securing funding for his never ending hunt for Nazis under the Stairs, as usual.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭chainsaws


    Unsure -
    marcsignal wrote: »
    I’m all for war criminals facing justice, but if Mr Steinberg wants to make a meaningful gesture with regards to punishing war criminals, he could begin by looking a little closer to home, instead of whinging about people who are long dead.

    What’s the point in punishing someone for something that happened 60 years ago, if you’re going to conveniently ignore what’s going on under your nose today.

    Some consistancy would be nice. Unfortunately, for humanity, Steinberg and his ilk are not interested in Justice, just his pound of flesh, his position of privilige, and securing funding for his never ending hunt for Nazis under the Stairs, as usual.

    Did Priebke participate in mass murder? Yes he did.

    He is a criminal and a mass murderer.
    Whether the crimes he committed them last year or 60 years ago whether he is his 37 or 97 years old makes no difference.
    Whether war crimes are being committed today is beside the point.
    Priebke should not be free to go to the shops.
    He should be in a cell and never released for any reason.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    chainsaws wrote: »
    Whether war crimes are being committed today is beside the point.

    Really ?

    you know the difference between 'Justice' and 'Revenge' don't you ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    marcsignal wrote: »
    I’m all for war criminals facing justice, but if Mr Steinberg wants to make a meaningful gesture with regards to punishing war criminals, he could begin by looking a little closer to home, instead of whinging about people who are long dead.

    What’s the point in punishing someone for something that happened 60 years ago, if you’re going to conveniently ignore what’s going on under your nose today.

    Some consistancy would be nice. Unfortunately, for humanity, Steinberg and his ilk are not interested in Justice, just his pound of flesh, his position of privilige, and securing funding for his never ending hunt for Nazis under the Stairs, as usual.

    You got some nice whataboutery going on there. And a bit of godwinning too, well done, don't often see a two for one like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    Unsure -
    You got some nice whataboutery going on there. And a bit of godwinning too, well done, don't often see a two for one like that.

    Can you godwin if you are talking about the nazis?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    You got some nice whataboutery going on there. And a bit of godwinning too, well done, don't often see a two for one like that.

    you've lost me there BlaasForRafa, as regards priebke, i'm one of only two who voted 'unsure' on the poll. Yes he should by all means pay for his crime, but i also think other people should practice what they preach.

    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭chainsaws


    Unsure -
    marcsignal wrote: »
    Really ?

    you know the difference between 'Justice' and 'Revenge' don't you ?

    The man - if you can a monster like Priepke a man - is lucky to live in a society which does not still hang draw and quarter murdering scum like him.

    During the Second World War when the 45th Division liberated more than 30,000 prisoners at Dachau. They were so shocked and outraged at their horrendous treatment that they gunned down the SS camp guards or handed them over the able-bodied prisoners who killed them.

    That was justice. Justice and revenge are one and the same.

    If I got my hands on that Nazi puke, he would die screaming in agony.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Can you godwin if you are talking about the nazis?

    If you throw in the holocaust for sure.

    I'm not sure why holocaust advocates are involved anyway. Wasn't this a massacre of italians and not jews?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    Unsure -
    If you throw in the holocaust for sure.

    I'm not sure why holocaust advocates are involved anyway. Wasn't this a massacre of italians and not jews?

    I thought the whole point of Godwin law was that you mention it when not relevent?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    chainsaws wrote: »
    they gunned down the (unarmed) SS camp guards (who afaik arrived at the camp 48hrs before) or handed them over the able-bodied prisoners who killed them.

    fyp
    chainsaws wrote: »
    That was justice. Justice and revenge are one and the same.

    Is that a fact ? well that's certainly news to me :rolleyes:

    Justice
    Revenge
    chainsaws wrote: »
    If I got my hands on that Nazi puke, he would die screaming in agony.

    Tell me, do you feel that way about all war criminals? Or just German ones?

    .....somehow i think i already know the answer.
    I'm not sure why holocaust advocates are involved anyway. Wasn't this a massacre of italians and not jews?

    neither do i tbh, (i'm talking about Steinberg here). As far as I'm concerned the evidence against Priebke is strong, he's serving a sentence for his crimes, and rightly so. However I also think the world would be a better place if more attention was paid to the precedent set by these trials, so we can try to ensure such things don't happen again, and that adherence to these precedents should apply to everyone in the future, without exception.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    Ah Marc, its Everyone Without Exception, except the Israelis ;) Obviously.

    I'm still disgusted at this, the man Killed some people, There was a WAR on,thats what his Job was (distasteful as some may find that) His Job was to maintain the Nazi Rule of Law, that he did, theonlyway the Nazis knew how, Brutally, There is no suggestionthat he was the one who decided onthis course of action, so HeFollowed orders, Orders that would have made perfect sense to him at the time. Only after the War did these men begin to be deprogrammed.

    So Seing as I cant see this guy becoming a repeat offender, I cant see what the issue is.

    Also its interesting to note that its a Jewish Group doing most of the Shouting, when there would have been very Few Jews killed that day, goes back to Marcsignals point about Nazi's under the stairs.
    What was the quote from another thread
    Jewish Groups admiting that there are no more Nazis to persecute
    is akin to
    Concern saying 'Ah them lads in the Third World are OK for Food this Year'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    Your ridiculous, hyperbolic outbursts add nothing.
    chainsaws wrote: »
    The man - if you can a monster like Priepke a man -

    Yes he is a man so you can call him a man. It is surprisingly factually correct. Your attempts at childish dehumanising of the subject of this discussion add nothing to this thread.
    chainsaws wrote: »
    is lucky to live in a society which does not
    still hang draw and quarter murdering scum like him.

    Again with the dehumanising of a feeble 97 yr old. Western society has not 'hung drawn and quartered' for hundreds of years and even then it was often the innocent people or people convicted of crimes of conscience and being politically unfashionable - in any event your 'point' if there is one is millions of miles off the mark. Medieval punishments and more dehumanising - is this the limit of your reach when it comes to contributing to an adult discussion ?
    chainsaws wrote: »
    the 45th Division liberated more than 30,000 prisoners at Dachau. They ... gunned down the SS camp guards or handed them over the able-bodied prisoners who killed them.

    These were not the only warcrimes committed by the allies during the 2nd world war.
    chainsaws wrote: »
    That was justice. Justice and revenge are one and the same.

    There you go being confused again. Real history is not like a comic book cartoon. Murdering unarmed prisoners is not justice it is a warcrime which you in your twisted little worldview are attempting to justify. As has been pointed out those men executed at dachau included those from the hospital ward and also the new arrivals.
    chainsaws wrote: »
    If I got my hands on that Nazi puke, he would die screaming in agony.

    As above, internet tough guys are not as impressive as you think and also in the context of this discussion yet again add nothing whatsoever. If I had voted as you did in this poll I would consider your contribution an embarrassment to my side of this discussion. Why dont you roll up your sleeves and start posting 'Whay Ay Oughtta !!!' and punch the air a few times, smash a keyboard or two ? That would only be a marginal disimprovement on your posts here so far but would at least be more amusing. Or maybe you could take the other route and grow up a bit before you post back on this thread ?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    Its all well and good for the Keyboard Warriors to make threats against a 97 Year old man, Chainsaw, had you met him in his 1944 Prime You would have Shat Yourself, he would have laughed at you, and then probably put a bullet betwen your eyes for threatening him


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    I would be curious to know tho, why a doctor can't attend to Priebke in prison? Can't a priest say mass for him in prison? Can't someone shop for him ?

    What reason was given for his being allowed to do all of the above like a normal person ?

    In the article, it also mentioned something about him working in his lawyers office as a translator. Was he being paid for this ? If not, were these translations relevant to his case? Might he have been assisting his Lawyers with translating relevant wartime documents, pertaining to his own defence ? If so, is their anything wrong with a client seeing his legal representative ?

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    marcsignal wrote: »
    I would be curious to know tho, why a doctor can't attend to Priebke in prison? Can't a priest say mass for him in prison? Can't someone shop for him ?

    please disregard this question. In all the emotional 'foo-fa' about priebke, I got a little confused regarding his confinment, and forgot he was under 'house arrest' as opposed to being in a prison, as such.

    I don't have an issue with him leaving the house, under escort, for reasons like church and doctor tbh, dunno about shoping, and I'd like to know more about the exact meaning of 'excursions' mentioned in the article.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Ah Marc, its Everyone Without Exception, except the Israelis ;) Obviously.

    I'm still disgusted at this, the man Killed some people, There was a WAR on,thats what his Job was (distasteful as some may find that) His Job was to maintain the Nazi Rule of Law, that he did, theonlyway the Nazis knew how, Brutally, There is no suggestionthat he was the one who decided onthis course of action, so HeFollowed orders, Orders that would have made perfect sense to him at the time. Only after the War did these men begin to be deprogrammed.

    As usual you are wrong. There are rules to how war is fought, which is especially pertinent to those who are losing a war .ie

    ""The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him""

    There were german personnel who refused to carry out executions of civilians and jews and were usually just moved to another unit. Personnel were not under pain of death to execute civilians so he dosen't have the excuse of "I was only following orders"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    ""The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him""

    That 'rule' didn't exsist until the Nuremberg trials. Which took place after the events in question. Previous to that a soldier was not responsible for carrying out orders. His superior was. The rules on this were changed specifically at the post ww2 Nuremberg trials.

    Taking the assumption that a captain in the SS at a point in time late in the war, when the tide had turned, could just 'decide' to refuse orders (without personal consequences being a factor) is a big assumption to make from the comfort of looking back at this from 2010. This is notwithstanding the fact that the above 'following orders' defence is not outlawed - it IS still grounds for a lesser sentence - just no longer grounds for a complete acquital.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    marcsignal wrote: »
    forgot he was under 'house arrest' as opposed to being in a prison, as such.

    As far as I know Italy has a general rule that no man over the age of 72 is kept in prison. They instead are given house arrest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭who what when


    Is there any statistics for allies who were tried for war crimes during and after world war 2? Did arthur harris, churchill, roosevelt, stalin or any of the allied commanders have to take accountability for there actions?
    Or is just the case that the winners make the rules?

    And of course the same can be said of americas actions in the middle east right now! Are people brainwashed by western history into thinking that all germans were automaticly bad and all allies automatically good?

    Take the russians. They had no respect for the lives of their own men, let alone any other countries! Yet there seems to be no accountability at all!
    I often wonder why this is the case


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    Take the russians. They had no respect for the lives of their own men, let alone any other countries! Yet there seems to be no accountability at all!
    I often wonder why this is the case

    Two prominent candidates who never stood at an allied warcrimes trial were both communists (and both jewish as it happens), Ilya Ehrenburg who wrote the famous 'Kill Kill Kill' ;

    If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German before combat. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another - there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days; do not count miles. Count only the number of Germans you have killed. Kill the German - this is your old mother's prayer. Kill the German - this is what your children beseech you to do. Kill the German - this is the cry of your Russian earth. Do not waver. Do not let up. Kill.

    And Laventy Beria - (wiki no longer mentions his being jewish) but if you read some of his atrocities committed before the war (vast purges that counted up to millions) during the war (which would include Katyn massacre of 22,000 poles) and throughout post war Russia (rape of children, murder etc etc) it would make your hair stand on end. At least the russians gave him a trial of sorts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭chainsaws


    Unsure -
    Morlar wrote: »
    Your ridiculous, hyperbolic outbursts add nothing.



    Yes he is a man so you can call him a man. It is surprisingly factually correct. Your attempts at childish dehumanising of the subject of this discussion add nothing to this thread.



    Again with the dehumanising of a feeble 97 yr old. Western society has not 'hung drawn and quartered' for hundreds of years and even then it was often the innocent people or people convicted of crimes of conscience and being politically unfashionable - in any event your 'point' if there is one is millions of miles off the mark. Medieval punishments and more dehumanising - is this the limit of your reach when it comes to contributing to an adult discussion ?



    These were not the only warcrimes committed by the allies during the 2nd world war.



    There you go being confused again. Real history is not like a comic book cartoon. Murdering unarmed prisoners is not justice it is a warcrime which you in your twisted little worldview are attempting to justify. As has been pointed out those men executed at dachau included those from the hospital ward and also the new arrivals.



    As above, internet tough guys are not as impressive as you think and also in the context of this discussion yet again add nothing whatsoever. If I had voted as you did in this poll I would consider your contribution an embarrassment to my side of this discussion. Why dont you roll up your sleeves and start posting 'Whay Ay Oughtta !!!' and punch the air a few times, smash a keyboard or two ? That would only be a marginal disimprovement on your posts here so far but would at least be more amusing. Or maybe you could take the other route and grow up a bit before you post back on this thread ?

    Why do you feel it necessary to defend filth like Priepke? You seem to be trying a bit too hard for my liking.:confused::rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Is there any statistics for allies who were tried for war crimes during and after world war 2? Did arthur harris, churchill, roosevelt, stalin or any of the allied commanders have to take accountability for there actions?

    Robert Mc Namara alludes to his and Curtis Le May's arrest as war criminals, had the Allies lost the war @ 40mins here. Interesting Movie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    marcsignal wrote: »
    Robert Mc Namara alludes to his and Curtis Le May's arrest as war criminals, had the Allies lost the war @ 40mins here. Interesting Movie.

    Interesting stuff indeed!

    Also of interest would be the fact that Grand Admiral Donitz was convicted of the "war crime" of conducting unrestricted submarine warfare. No sentance was considered for this because Admiral Chester Nimitz stated that the United States also conducted unrestricted submarine warfare.

    Thus if you extrapolate from that then in theory at least Nimitz and Dudley Pound on the allied side were war criminals. Personally I don't think unrestricted submarine warfare should be considered a war crime except in situations like where hospital ships or civilian liners like perhaps the SS Athenia are considered but again its the victors who choose what is and what isn't a war crime.

    I guess its not too well known by the public at large but the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff (and other ships like the Goya and Steuben) was a terrible war crime committed by the russians but because it was committed against german civilians no-one gave a damn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭ddef


    in my opinion, People need to move on from Nazi Germany.
    Remember the people who suffered, and let history remember the rest.
    This is a past generations bussiness, not ours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭chainsaws


    Unsure -
    ddef wrote: »
    in my opinion, People need to move on from Nazi Germany.
    Remember the people who suffered, and let history remember the rest.
    This is a past generations bussiness, not ours.

    This is not history yet.

    There are still survivors of the Holocaust alive.

    There are still Nazi criminals alive who were never brought to justice.:mad:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    No - he should not be permitted to leave his home
    And some of those Holocaust Survivors went on to Commit their own War Crimes :(


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    chainsaws wrote: »
    There are still survivors of the Holocaust alive

    ..and there will still be tens of thousands of Holocaust survivors still alive (and needing compensation money) by the year 2035* according to Elan Steinberg :rolleyes:

    *Thats 90 years after the end of WW2 folks


    .


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