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Why aren't Irish composers more rated?

  • 03-07-2012 4:45pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 363 ✭✭


    Some of today's younger British composers have 'made it' already. In the sense that their CDs are on sale in the shops, their music is regularly performed, and they get written about in the media. So why are so few Irish composers doing as well? Even the older ones are little known. Are they just not good enough or is it due to little support for classical music in this country?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Norrdeth


    FishBowel wrote: »
    Some of today's younger British composers have 'made it' already.
    In the sense that their CDs are on sale in the shops, their music is regularly performed,
    and they get written about in the media.
    So why are so few Irish composers doing as well?
    Even the older ones are little known.
    Are they just not good enough or is it due to little support for classical music in this country?

    There would be a few seemingly good reasons why this is the case,
    for example we have no PROMs here, a lower population density
    which = less money for funding and also a smaller number of ensembles
    dedicated to contemporary from living Irish composers music.

    While the scene may appear healthy enough there definitely isn't as much
    support as lets say our colleagues in Austria or Germany.

    I believe it's more down to attitude than anything else.
    Most performers see contemporary music as a risk,
    and feel it's necessary only to pursue it if they seemingly fail at great interpretations of the past masters.
    It's an attitude that really has to change, and we can't be performing late 19th century music forever(great as it may be),
    culture can't really take the strain.

    That said there are some quite young composers making waves at the moment abroad,
    I would cite some of the people I most admire in this respect as Piaras Hoban, Ann Cleare, & Gráinne Mulvey.

    If you're interested in how Irish composers are doing the best places to hear
    about them is on cmc.ie or from the journal of music in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Norrdeth wrote: »

    That said there are some quite young composers making waves at the moment abroad,
    I would cite some of the people I most admire in this respect as Piaras Hoban, Ann Cleare, & Gráinne Mulvey.

    If you're interested in how Irish composers are doing the best places to hear
    about them is on cmc.ie or from the journal of music in Ireland.

    I think Grainne would be quite pleased (or maybe not) to hear you call her a young composer considering she is 46 years of age! :)
    My opinion, there simply isn't an appetite for contemporary classical music in this country, as least not on a large scale. You have to remember that Ireland has NO history of art music unlike Germany or Britain and the concept of Irish contemporary music is quite a new concept, with the first works produced only in the last 60 years or so. Also composers of contemporary music never really reach fame and commercial success as the music simply doesn't appeal to the masses. Look at the British composers who are successful, John Tavener and Karl Jenkins, there music is much more accessible and 'listener friendly' than the music written by most contemporary composers. There are some Irish composers who have had commercial success, most noteworthy Bill Whelan with Riverdance but also other composers such as Kevin Volans who string quartet "white man sleeps" is one of the biggest selling classical records since it was recorded by the Kronos Quartet. As a composer myself I can only hope the situation improves, although honestly most composers I know are not particularly interested in commercial success.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 363 ✭✭FishBowel


    You're an Irish composer so where do we stand compared with other countries? Do our composers deserve being ignored, should they emigrate to achieve success or recognition, or is a lot of the stuff being done here just derivative and unoriginal? It saddens me going into my local charity shop and seeing unopened CDs from the CMC on sale! Also, why do Irish composers work year after year if they've no interest in 'commercial success'? Isn't that a bit arrogant? Surely they want their work to be heard and get noticed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    FishBowel wrote: »
    You're an Irish composer so where do we stand compared with other countries? Do our composers deserve being ignored, should they emigrate to achieve success or recognition, or is a lot of the stuff being done here just derivative and unoriginal? It saddens me going into my local charity shop and seeing unopened CDs from the CMC on sale! Also, why do Irish composers work year after year if they've no interest in 'commercial success'? Isn't that a bit arrogant? Surely they want their work to be heard and get noticed?

    When I say no interest in commercial success I mean that composers won't alter their natural style in order to achieve commercial success. If a composer writes in a particular atonal style for example, that is never going to achieve widespread popularity, but I don't think many composers would adopt a different style just to sell CD's.

    As to your first question, I think other countries have a higher level of interest in contemporary music but I think is more due to countries such as Germany and France having a much longer history of art music. Some of the music being written here is a bit derivative in the same way that some of the music in other countries is derivative but there are some very good composers active in this country who enjoy artistic success. Examples being Ian Wilson, Kevin Volans, Gerald Barry, John Buckley, Jane O' Leary etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    pconn062 wrote: »
    there are some very good composers active in this country who enjoy artistic success. Examples being Ian Wilson, Kevin Volans, Gerald Barry, John Buckley, Jane O' Leary etc.

    Damn straight. I'm a young composer myself, and it's not easy to get a career in Ireland. I'm sure it's difficult everywhere, but Ireland is pretty small and traditionally doesn't support classical music/art music particularly well.

    That said, there are some composers doing very well in Ireland - the trick seems to be in making your own opportunities (though again, not as easy as it sounds). The ICC (plug plug plug) and Ergodos are two groups that come to mind that present music primarily by young composers.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5 CecilBlunt


    Any YouTube links to your work?


  • Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭richardh330


    I can see I'm a bit late to this post but I'm very keen in becoming a composer but my only problem is, are there any jobs for the future. I'm only 17 years old so I still have a while to decide but I need to be thinking about college courses. As of now, my first choice would be a BA in Composition at RIAM. So is there any hope for future irish composers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    I can see I'm a bit late to this post but I'm very keen in becoming a composer but my only problem is, are there any jobs for the future. I'm only 17 years old so I still have a while to decide but I need to be thinking about college courses. As of now, my first choice would be a BA in Composition at RIAM. So is there any hope for future irish composers?

    I did that course - feel free to PM me if you want to chat about it.

    What do you mean by "hope for future Irish composers"? You're probably not going to walk out of college into a salaried job, but there's other ways of making a living while being a composer. Teaching is the main one, and in fairness everyone in music in Ireland has to teach.

    And, sorry this is such a late response; I don't have any work on youtube, but I do have a soundcloud.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Linda Buckley is doing quite well for herself these days.

    Internationally, new composers are finding it tough. I don't think it's necessarily an Irish phenomenon


  • Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭richardh330


    Undergod wrote: »
    What do you mean by "hope for future Irish composers"? You're probably not going to walk out of college into a salaried job, but there's other ways of making a living while being a composer. Teaching is the main one, and in fairness everyone in music in Ireland has to teach.

    When I say hope I mean a future career and a good means to live. Also, what will a composer teach? Composition or an instrument? Because I've never heard of a composition teacher, apart from the lecturers in college. Here's my soundcloud as well.


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  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence



    When I say hope I mean a future career and a good means to live. Also, what will a composer teach? Composition or an instrument? Because I've never heard of a composition teacher, apart from the lecturers in college. Here's my soundcloud as well.

    To be frank, rarely is composition a career as such. The cmc usually tries to support budding talent but it will never be your day job


  • Site Banned Posts: 224 ✭✭SubBusted


    Stupid question but is Linda John Buckley's daughter?


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Dunno, quite possibly. I had a quick google there and found nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    When I say hope I mean a future career and a good means to live. Also, what will a composer teach? Composition or an instrument? Because I've never heard of a composition teacher, apart from the lecturers in college. Here's my soundcloud as well.

    I teach piano and clarinet; some places do have composition teachers outside of college but it is rare alright. You'd probably be able to teach theory as well.

    Very few people have composition and no other career, and composers are expected to do more nowadays than we used to. As well as composing, you have to be able to self-promote, prepare your own scores and parts, and it's very useful to be able to conduct.

    Other than teaching, you could also work in arts administration (working in public or private bodies that facilitate the arts), curate an ensemble, typeset music, or a number of other things. This is known as a "portfolio career" and to be honest, is the norm nowadays and expected from most people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    To be frank, rarely is composition a career as such. The cmc usually tries to support budding talent but it will never be your day job

    While it is not that common I know of several composers in Ireland who make a living purely from composition, Ian Wilson and Kevin Volans to name two.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    I can see I'm a bit late to this post but I'm very keen in becoming a composer but my only problem is, are there any jobs for the future. I'm only 17 years old so I still have a while to decide but I need to be thinking about college courses. As of now, my first choice would be a BA in Composition at RIAM. So is there any hope for future irish composers?

    Agree with Undergod, composition is not a career you choose if you are interested in making money! I have a degree in music, an MA in composition and am currently doing a PhD in compositions, have been writing seriously since 2008 and apart from some competition prize money I haven't earned a penny from my music. I (like most other composers) work as well as a piano teacher and also some part time hours lecturing. It's a bit like becoming a nun, a vocation rather than a career!

    Sure while we are sticking up soundcloud pages!


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    pconn062 wrote: »
    While it is not that common I know of several composers in Ireland who make a living purely from composition, Ian Wilson and Kevin Volans to name two.

    Aye I'm not denying it happens, but I'm not saying it's a viable career as such. Even the most talented composers have day jobs for the most part.

    It is more usual to earn money in order to make music rather than the other way around :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    pconn062 wrote: »
    While it is not that common I know of several composers in Ireland who make a living purely from composition, Ian Wilson and Kevin Volans to name two.

    By his CMC bio, Ian Wilson has been involved with universities in some capacity, and has done artistic direction work. Kevin Volans teaches privately a little bit I think.

    We're basically agreeing though; it's the exception rather than the rule.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    pconn062 wrote: »
    Agree with Undergod, composition is not a career you choose if you are interested in making money! I have a degree in music, an MA in composition and am currently doing a PhD in compositions, have been writing seriously since 2008 and apart from some competition prize money I haven't earned a penny from my music. I (like most other composers) work as well as a piano teacher and also some part time hours lecturing. It's a bit like becoming a nun, a vocation rather than a career!

    Sure while we are sticking up soundcloud pages!

    I see you're in the ICC too! You had a piece played in the piano/sax concert? I did as well, but I wasn't actually able to make it that night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭richardh330


    To join CMC do you have to have any qualifications or anything special to be a member. Well, apart from the obvious of plenty of compositions is there anything you need to do to be part of CMC?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Undergod wrote: »
    I see you're in the ICC too! You had a piece played in the piano/sax concert? I did as well, but I wasn't actually able to make it that night.

    Yes I did! It was a lovely concert, I really enjoyed your piece that night, all the pieces were great that night.
    To join CMC do you have to have any qualifications or anything special to be a member. Well, apart from the obvious of plenty of compositions is there anything you need to do to be part of CMC?

    You don't really join the CMC per se, you have to be accepted. I recently applied (and was accepted, should have a page up soon!) to the CMC and the application involved sending in scores, bios, recordings, CV etc and then they are sent off to be adjudicated by an external panel. You have to be seen to show a commitment to composition as a major factor in your professional life in order to be accepted. The CMC is a professional organisation that represents you and promotes you so they try to make sure the composers they select are as committed as possible (so I was told!).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    pconn062 wrote: »
    Yes I did! It was a lovely concert, I really enjoyed your piece that night, all the pieces were great that night.

    Cheers!
    To join CMC do you have to have any qualifications or anything special to be a member. Well, apart from the obvious of plenty of compositions is there anything you need to do to be part of CMC?

    In addition to what Richard said, it usually expects a master's level degree in music, or a significant amount of professional experience, before it will accept you - that's the "major factor" they look for.

    You're still very young from their point of view, the youngest member as far as I know is 24. In the meantime, to get serious about things, get pieces played - you've mentioned you're still in school, are there other students you could write for, or local ensembles you could approach? Consider joining the ICC (Irish Composers' Collective) - Patrick and I are both members of this group and I would recommend it to anyone beginning a composition career. It's based in Dublin so that's obviously not ideal right now, but if you do the BA in the RIAM it'll be easier.


  • Site Banned Posts: 224 ✭✭SubBusted


    Undergod wrote: »
    In addition to what Richard said, it usually expects a master's level degree in music, or a significant amount of professional experience, before it will accept you - that's the "major factor" they look for.
    Surely if you're any good or succesful you would be accepted? Frank McNamara is a more successful composer than most in this country but he's not a member. Seems to be an elitist organisation for people who compose atonal music with no audience?


  • Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭IceFjoem


    SubBusted wrote: »
    Surely if you're any good or succesful you would be accepted? Frank McNamara is a more successful composer than most in this country but he's not a member. Seems to be an elitist organisation for people who compose atonal music with no audience?

    Don't get me started, it's like some kind of centre for those who write contemporary classical music, where only the composers are promoted, talk about elitism!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    SubBusted wrote: »
    Surely if you're any good or succesful you would be accepted?

    Um, yes.
    SubBusted wrote: »
    Frank McNamara is a more successful composer than most in this country but he's not a member.

    Maybe he doesn't want to? I'm not familiar with his work.
    SubBusted wrote: »
    Seems to be an elitist organisation for people who compose atonal music with no audience?

    Like those Darmstadt fascists Bill Whelan and Shaun Davey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    SubBusted wrote: »
    Surely if you're any good or succesful you would be accepted? Frank McNamara is a more successful composer than most in this country but he's not a member. Seems to be an elitist organisation for people who compose atonal music with no audience?

    You seem to be equating success with being good, lots of people are successful, doesn't mean they are good! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭IceFjoem


    pconn062 wrote: »
    You seem to be equating success with being good, lots of people are successful, doesn't mean they are good! :)

    Yea, like Lex Luthor.


  • Site Banned Posts: 224 ✭✭SubBusted


    Undergod wrote: »
    Like those Darmstadt fascists Bill Whelan and Shaun Davey.
    Well, why isn't Ronan Hardiman a member? He's a successful and famous Irish composer whose music is mainstream and available on CD. Some of those members in the CMC no-one's heard of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭IceFjoem


    SubBusted wrote: »
    Well, why isn't Ronan Hardiman a member? He's a successful and famous Irish composer whose music is mainstream and available on CD. Some of those members in the CMC no-one's heard of.

    Contemporary Music Conspiracy


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    SubBusted wrote: »
    Well, why isn't Ronan Hardiman a member? He's a successful and famous Irish composer whose music is mainstream and available on CD. Some of those members in the CMC no-one's heard of.

    Don't hurt your back moving the goalposts there.

    I'm afraid I don't know why Ronan Hardiman hasn't joined the CMC - personally, I don't know his work, but from a quick google he seems to write chiefly music for dance and theater. The CMC is more for people who write concert and chamber music, as far as I can tell, so maybe that's why? Or maybe he doesn't need it for the promotion of his own career? Or he's never gotten around to it?

    I'm not sure why this is relevant to be honest.


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