Laws Question? Ask here!

gooch2k9 · 14-01-2012 10:24pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

anywhere behind where the ball went out

Thought so, got called back after doing it today, must of been for something else.

Cheers for the clarification.

Losty Dublin · 14-01-2012 10:25pm

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Can a quick throw be taken anywhere behind where the ball went out or does it have to be at the spot the actual lineout would occur?

Anywhere from behind the line of touch suffices, once it's a lawful line out. If the ball goes out beyond the 5 metre lines a line out can be taken quickly behind the line of touch but in practice it isn't possible to do so

MyKeyG · 14-01-2012 10:34pm

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Can a quick throw be taken anywhere behind where the ball went out or does it have to be at the spot the actual lineout would occur?

Yes anywhere behind the point the ball went out (but why would you want to lose ground). For a quick throw it must be the ball that went out of play and before the opposition lineout has formed.

gooch2k9 · 14-01-2012 10:43pm

MyKeyG wrote: »

Yes anywhere behind the point the ball went out (but why would you want to lose ground). For a quick throw it must be the ball that went out of play and before the opposition lineout has formed.

We were behind and they weren't at all organised, would have been worth a shot. They were stealing a lot of our lineouts too.

Ordinarily I'd probably agree with you though.

Losty Dublin · 14-01-2012 10:59pm

MyKeyG wrote: »

For a quick throw it must be the ball that went out of play and before the opposition lineout has formed.

That actually applies to both teams as anybody approaching the mark is considered to be there to form the line out. FTR, a line out can't be formed by the non throwing in team. You may arrive at the mark in readiness but until the throwing in team makes a call on the numbers involved you can't correctly "form" the line out

Similarly, if a call is made for less numbers than are present then you must be afforded a chance to retreat 10.

rje66 · 15-01-2012 8:06pm

Originally Posted by gooch2k9
Can a quick throw be taken anywhere behind where the ball went out or does it have to be at the spot the actual lineout would occur?

Anywhere from behind the line of touch suffices

Not so.
senario
red 10 just outside 22, kicks directly into touch and ball crosses line at halfway , opposition can only take a quick throw from halfway back to their corner flag OR where the lineout will take place.But not in the space between halfway and where lineout will take place.

Reloc8 · 15-01-2012 11:03pm

Correct

Law 19 Touch & Lineout includes :

"19.2 QUICK THROW-IN

(a) A player may take a quick throw-in without waiting for a lineout to form.

(b) For a quick throw-in, the player may be anywhere outside the field of play between
the place where the ball went into touch and the player’s goal line..."

The reference point is 'where the ball went into touch' not the line of touch.

Losty Dublin · 16-01-2012 12:16am

Reloc8 wrote: »

Correct

Law 19 Touch & Lineout includes :

"19.2 QUICK THROW-IN

(a) A player may take a quick throw-in without waiting for a lineout to form.

(b) For a quick throw-in, the player may be anywhere outside the field of play between
the place where the ball went into touch and the player’s goal line..."

The reference point is 'where the ball went into touch' not the line of touch.

rje66 wrote:

Not so.
senario
red 10 just outside 22, kicks directly into touch and ball crosses line at halfway , opposition can only take a quick throw from halfway back to their corner flag OR where the lineout will take place.But not in the space between halfway and where lineout will take place.

You both are getting a little bit mixed up in words here.

The line of touch is an imaginary line that crosses the field of play from where and when the ball is thrown in at the line out. It's not created by where the ball went out but from where the throw itself is taken; this is where the offside line is set for players during the line out. Were you to bring the ball back then it wouldn't be a quick line out, would you?

Reloc8 · 16-01-2012 6:06pm

Ok...we've been saying 'the line of touch' as a reference to where the line out would take place if not taken quickly which is not correct...but the point is...

Rule 19 where quick throw ins are concerned isn't governed by the line of touch - its governed by where the ball went into touch...if a quick throw in can be taken anywhere between 'where the ball went into touch' and 'the players goal line' then where Red 10 kicks direct to touch during play from outside 22 and ball crosses line on the half way line 'where the ball went into touch' is the half-way line.

Blue (opposing team) can only take a quick throw in from between 'where the ball went into touch' to their own goal line, although the place where the lineout will take place in normal course if not taken quickly will be just outside the 22 from where Red 10 kicked it.

Blue can't take a quick throw in from between the half-way line, and the point just outside the 22 from where Red 10 kicked it as that is not between 'where the ball went into touch' and their own goal line.

This by the way is yet another reason why the Wales try v Ireland in 2011 should have been disallowed. The Ball goes out on the full. Wales can take a quick lineout from where it goes out to their own line. They take a quick throw from ahead of where the ball went out (aside from the fact that its the wrong ball) - very clear at 2:38 onwards in this video :

vRp1sYiQQVU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRp1sYiQQVU

Losty Dublin · 16-01-2012 8:27pm

Reloc8 wrote: »

Ok...we've been saying 'the line of touch' as a reference to where the line out would take place if not taken quickly which is not correct...but the point is...

Rule 19 where quick throw ins are concerned isn't governed by the line of touch - its governed by where the ball went into touch...if a quick throw in can be taken anywhere between 'where the ball went into touch' and 'the players goal line' then where Red 10 kicks direct to touch during play from outside 22 and ball crosses line on the half way line 'where the ball went into touch' is the half-way line.

Blue (opposing team) can only take a quick throw in from between 'where the ball went into touch' to their own goal line, although the place where the lineout will take place in normal course if not taken quickly will be just outside the 22 from where Red 10 kicked it.

Blue can't take a quick throw in from between the half-way line, and the point just outside the 22 from where Red 10 kicked it as that is not between 'where the ball went into touch' and their own goal line.

Nobody's arguing about this except you at this stage, it's settled and all now. Free kick for time wasting

MyKeyG · 16-01-2012 9:09pm

Reloc8 wrote: »

Ok...we've been saying 'the line of touch' as a reference to where the line out would take place if not taken quickly which is not correct...but the point is...

Rule 19 where quick throw ins are concerned isn't governed by the line of touch - its governed by where the ball went into touch...if a quick throw in can be taken anywhere between 'where the ball went into touch' and 'the players goal line' then where Red 10 kicks direct to touch during play from outside 22 and ball crosses line on the half way line 'where the ball went into touch' is the half-way line.

Blue (opposing team) can only take a quick throw in from between 'where the ball went into touch' to their own goal line, although the place where the lineout will take place in normal course if not taken quickly will be just outside the 22 from where Red 10 kicked it.

Blue can't take a quick throw in from between the half-way line, and the point just outside the 22 from where Red 10 kicked it as that is not between 'where the ball went into touch' and their own goal line.

This by the way is yet another reason why the Wales try v Ireland in 2011 should have been disallowed. The Ball goes out on the full. Wales can take a quick lineout from where it goes out to their own line. They take a quick throw from ahead of where the ball went out (aside from the fact that its the wrong ball) - very clear at 2:38 onwards in this video :

vRp1sYiQQVU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRp1sYiQQVU

Thanks for the reminder:(:(:(:(:(

Reloc8 · 17-01-2012 10:31am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Nobody's arguing about this except you at this stage, it's settled and all now. Free kick for time wasting

You earlier said you could take a quick throw in from 'anywhere behind the line of touch' and in your last post that we were getting mixed up in words - I was only responding to you.

errlloyd · 17-01-2012 10:52am

Knocks ons.

Here this should be simple, but its apparently not.

At the weekend a Glasgow player knocked the ball on, it traveled a few inches to Sexton who also knocked it on. It was awarded as a scrum to Glasgow for Sextons knock on.

In the later kick off, a Sarries player knocked on, it traveled several feet (without bouncing) till hitting a Biaritz player who knocked on, it was awarded as a Biaritz scrum because of a sarries knock on.

Did the ref just not see the Glasgow knock on, or is it not a knock on until it touches the ground or another player or something.

Downtime · 17-01-2012 1:55pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Knocks ons.

Here this should be simple, but its apparently not.

At the weekend a Glasgow player knocked the ball on, it traveled a few inches to Sexton who also knocked it on. It was awarded as a scrum to Glasgow for Sextons knock on.

In the later kick off, a Sarries player knocked on, it traveled several feet (without bouncing) till hitting a Biaritz player who knocked on, it was awarded as a Biaritz scrum because of a sarries knock on.

Did the ref just not see the Glasgow knock on, or is it not a knock on until it touches the ground or another player or something.

Didn't see the knock on in question - it does not have to touch the ground for it to be a knock on. When in the game did it occur? Maybe Owens missed it.

Actually just saw it - in 3rd minute. Difficult one to spot for the referee. Came off a Glasgow foot and then hand into Sexton. Should have been a Leinster scrum. The touch judge didnt help much in saying it came off white and Nigel Owens was playing advantage to Leinster and didnt spot the Sexton knock on.

Shelflife · 17-01-2012 2:41pm

How much abuse do you "allow" players to give you after a game?

Reffed a match a few weeks back and awarded a pen try in the last few mins, 6 pens within 15m of the line, warning that its on the cards followed by blatent pen at next ruck.

After the game a few of the players stood near me and made snide comments that were loud enough for me to hear, ie hasnt a fkn clue, cheat etc. at u17 level do you just let it go or pick them up on it ?

kensutz · 17-01-2012 2:50pm

I'd report it back to the branch about comments made and they might ask you for a full report of it. There's no excuse for clubs to make that sort of comment about you after a game.

MyKeyG · 17-01-2012 3:39pm

I've only reffed a few times but personally if it's after the game I let it go. I've vented myself after games and it's usually a whole lot of nothing. If there was any abuse directed directly towards me that's a different matter but general venting I've better things to be doing than getting bent out of shape over angry 17 year olds.

Losty Dublin · 17-01-2012 4:34pm

Shelflife wrote: »

How much abuse do you "allow" players to give you after a game?

Reffed a match a few weeks back and awarded a pen try in the last few mins, 6 pens within 15m of the line, warning that its on the cards followed by blatent pen at next ruck.

After the game a few of the players stood near me and made snide comments that were loud enough for me to hear, ie hasnt a fkn clue, cheat etc. at u17 level do you just let it go or pick them up on it ?

I wouldn't worry too much if it's just post match grumbling, even if it's aimed your way; chances are that it's forgotten about by the time their boots are off.

Now if it's a bit nastier or uncalled for, depending on the level of abuse or how it's directed I'd make two calls. If it's a friendly game, call over the coach and the captain and make it clear to them that it is not acceptable to abuse, even after the whistle and that it needs to be sorted out ASAP. If it's a competitve game then remember that you still have the right to card if need be and to report any party if need it, this includes people and bystanders on the line. Chances are that it's happening a lot if it happens once so you can do worse than to report it. There was a youths game in November where a coach actually took off a team after sledging went too far and the game was abandoned; this is just why it needs to be nipped in the bud before the off.

Podge_irl · 18-01-2012 2:24am

Shelflife wrote: »

Reffed a match a few weeks back and awarded a pen try in the last few mins, 6 pens within 15m of the line, warning that its on the cards followed by blatent pen at next ruck.

I'd have a word with he coach and captain. It's unacceptable and you'd hope they would reign it in in future.

That said, the bolded above is of no relevance to awarding a penalty try and is a particular bug bear of mine.

castie · 18-01-2012 5:13am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'd have a word with he coach and captain. It's unacceptable and you'd hope they would reign it in in future.

That said, the bolded above is of no relevance to awarding a penalty try and is a particular bug bear of mine.

Have to agree. More of a situation to start carding someone.

Where was the infringement when you awared the penalty try?
If you were 10m out and awarded I would personally be fuming.

End of the day though everyone makes mistakes or judging things wrong at times. In the same way that players lose judgement after such things too.

Unless they went up to your face and said these things I would leave it go.

Shelflife · 18-01-2012 10:34am

Camped inside the 10m line and yellow cards were not an option, reds only in this competition.

What other option do you have without rewarding blatent cheating?

Reloc8 · 19-01-2012 9:35am

That's fairly weird because it effectively takes 10.3 out

('a player must not repeatedly infringe any law. Repeated infringement is a matter of fact. The question of whether or not the player intended to infringe is irrelevant.

A player penalised for repeated infringement must be cautioned and temporarily suspended.')

Where the offending team intentionally infringing ?

Law 10.2

'(a) A player mus not intentionally infringe any law of the game or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.

(b) A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored..."

If the infringement was intentional you could send the player off.

You still have to be happy in all circumstances that a try would probably have been scored to give a penalty try irrespective of how many penalties you've awarded.

What was the competition ?

Shelflife · 19-01-2012 12:38pm

I feel that a red card would be deemed over the top for technical/offside/team offences esp at underage level, different where a player is on a yellow and offends again, but a straight red for offside at the ruck is a bit much imo.

It was a lge game, my feelings were at the time that the attacking team, had they been allowed to play the quick ball that they were generating that they would have scored.

castie · 19-01-2012 2:04pm

Shelflife wrote: »

I feel that a red card would be deemed over the top for technical/offside/team offences esp at underage level, different where a player is on a yellow and offends again, but a straight red for offside at the ruck is a bit much imo.

It was a lge game, my feelings were at the time that the attacking team, had they been allowed to play the quick ball that they were generating that they would have scored.

Thats very strange that you couldnt yellow someone.

(looking back at it we all have a great view of course)
I would of pulled the captain and told him this is your yellow card warning.
And that take it as if you have just gotten one as if this keeps up it will be red next.

Samich · 19-01-2012 7:17pm

Was the match u-17 or u-16, u-16 there's no red cards, but there is red cards. In u-17 there is yellow and red cards, lasts for 7 mins.

Shelflife · 19-01-2012 11:13pm

Samich wrote: »

Was the match u-17 or u-16, u-16 there's no red cards, but there is red cards. In u-17 there is yellow and red cards, lasts for 7 mins.

It was an u16 game .

castie · 20-01-2012 3:00am

End of the day if your hands are tied and you have no real options to resolve the situation its not your fault.

While I disagree with the penalty try im at a loss to what else could of been done within the constraints.

Downtime · 20-01-2012 9:41am

Samich wrote: »

Was the match u-17 or u-16, u-16 there's no red cards, but there is red cards. In u-17 there is yellow and red cards, lasts for 7 mins.

Where is this? Under IRFU Game Regulation Variations for Schools & Youths Rugby there is red card at all levels (U13 and U14 allows replacement) and yellow cards from U17 upwards - so none at U16.

Reloc8 · 20-01-2012 10:28am

Yeah - Going by the Game Regulation Variations for Schools & Youth Rugby on the arlb.net site U17's have yellow card for 7 minutes, and full reds.

Losty Dublin · 20-01-2012 11:40am

castie wrote: »

End of the day if your hands are tied and you have no real options to resolve the situation its not your fault.

While I disagree with the penalty try im at a loss to what else could of been done within the constraints.

A few seasons ago in the day of no red cards at SCT cup, there was referee (who shalt remain nameless) who heard a player racially abuse an opposition player during a high profile schools game. He blew up, stopped the watch and called over the coach and captain to tell them that the game would not continue until the guilty party was substituted.

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