Black powder et al. Initial post.

tac foley · 05-12-2016 5:27pm #1

Right.

As the subject of shooting black powder firearms has risen to the surface, and having been given a figurative green light to discuss the subject in broad terms as a matter that has enlivened the interests of posters here, I'm more than happy to start a thread about it.

Since the subject matter is truly vast, and covers almost 800 years in Western Europe, it would be good if any questions could be addressed to the shooting of BP firearms as a target sport, entering into martial history only where there is a crossover of interests or of developments in the history of BP arms. Broadly-speaking, BP arms are divided into muzzleloading and cartridge arms, and I'm happy to discuss either, as well as the alternatives to the use of BP as a propellant that are readily available these days.

I don't offer myself as any kind of expert, but I can post a lot from personal experience as a keen BP shooter since the late 1960s. Like anybody who takes an interest in a subject, I have a very extensive library on the subject. Add to that the fund of knowledge of my many BP shooting friends at home in Canada and in the USA, where we live part of the year, and many years posting and reading on a few fora based over there will enable me to give an answer to most any question that might appear here.

One point I would like to make quite clear is that I am fully au fait with the current legislation in the Republic regarding this kind of firearm, and I will not enter into any kind of discussion in which questions about the illegal use of such firearms is mentioned.

I shoot my BP firearms for the great craic of doing so, and enjoying all that goes along with it - handgun and rifle - with firearms dating from 1861 to last week. figuratively speaking.

It goes without saying that, because I live in another country, the laws here are substantially different to your laws, so a discussion of the fairness or otherwise of your laws, vis-á-vis MY laws, would not be fair to either of us. There are many countries in Europe in which a single-shot muzzleloading rifle or pistol is not even considered to be a firearm of any kind, but you and I both live in countries where that does not pertain.

So let's make this an interesting thread, and if there is anybody here from the North who enjoys the sport of BP shooting, please join in with your experiences.

tac

clivej · 06-12-2016 2:01pm

All I know is when I'm at the Phoenix comp. in Bisley and go to watch the black powder shooters it's exciting to see.

The command to fire goes and there are several almighty bangs followed by the big cloud of smoke from the lads & lassies. A short interval to all reload then they are off again. If only we could have it here.

Tac I follow your posts here and on other forums. You are a mind full of information that many, like myself, would love to have.

gunny123 · 06-12-2016 3:56pm

A fly in the ointment is of course most BP firearms are large calibre, there would have to be an exemption to the .308 limit for bp rifled firearms or they would be restricted. A bit of an anomally like the pistol calibre lever actions for gallery being restricted.

tac foley · 06-12-2016 6:06pm

Gunny123, with the exception of the tiny .31cal Colts pocket pistol and the .32cal long rifle used over the way for squirrelling, they are ALL .36cal or bigger - sometimes MUCH bigger.

Bigger, of course, does not mean monstrously more powerful, although a .45cal muzzleloading rifle could easily take any size of deer hereabouts - up to about 75 yards, and a .54cal definitely drop one at 100 - 120 yards. Which means, gentlefolk, that your stalking skills would definitely have to be up to snuff, right?

Let's just imagine for a moment that one fine day we could all not just shoot one of the lovely old Mausers that landed at Houth, but make the ammunition for it as well. All the components are readily available, the new brass cartridge cases would come from Henry Krank in Pudsey, Yorkshiree, the bullets from TrueFlight in Birmingham [or cast them youself] and the BP from a local dealer, or, if you really MUST, one of the substitutes from the same source...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn6B8hvrXC8

Wouldn't that be great?

For those fans of the Big Hammer - the Sharps rifle - you don't need cartridges at all for the early versions as they used loose loading or nitrated paper cartridges.

tac

tac foley · 06-12-2016 6:58pm

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I REALLY have to get a handle on posting images here - it is just SO darned difficult!

tac

gunny123 · 06-12-2016 7:29pm

tac foley wrote: »

Gunny123, with the exception of the tiny .31cal Colts pocket pistol and the .32cal long rifle used over the way for squirrelling, they are ALL .36cal or bigger - sometimes MUCH bigger.

Bigger, of course, does not mean monstrously more powerful, although a .45cal muzzleloading rifle could easily take any size of deer hereabouts - up to about 75 yards, and a .54cal definitely drop one at 100 - 120 yards. Which means, gentlefolk, that your stalking skills would definitely have to be up to snuff, right?

Let's just imagine for a moment that one fine day we could all not just shoot one of the lovely old Mausers that landed at Houth, but make the ammunition for it as well. All the components are readily available, the new brass cartridge cases would come from Henry Krank in Pudsey, Yorkshiree, the bullets from TrueFlight in Birmingham [or cast them youself] and the BP from a local dealer, or, if you really MUST, one of the substitutes from the same source...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn6B8hvrXC8

Wouldn't that be great?

For those fans of the Big Hammer - the Sharps rifle - you don't need cartridges at all for the early versions as they used loose loading or nitrated paper cartridges.

tac

To the doj calibre equals power tac. A .38spl lever action for gallery is restricted, but a .300 win mag is unrestricted. I explained this to the inspector in the local station, and i might as well have been speaking chinese i reckon.

tac foley · 06-12-2016 7:31pm

While you are waiting this glossary contains a load in useful [and useless] information about all forms of BP shooting. apart from the oftimes 'interesting' spelling of some words and terms, it's a useful reference that saves me a lot of time writing my own.

http://www.bersachat.com/forums/showthread.php?1261-Glossary-of-Muzzleloading-Terms

My thanks to Ronald Carstairs of the Bersa Chat Forum.

Please note that on a personal level, I have 100% no experience of shooting the modern 'in-line' black powder firearms. In that respect I am strictly a traditionalist, and like to shoot old guns or modern replications of old guns.

Apropos my comment on shooting larger game, bear in mind that over here there is a minimum muzzle energy level for shooting full-size deer, and VERY few muzzleloaders are compliant. In Scotland, one has to have velocity AND muzzle energy of a certain level, and there there is not a single muzzleloader of my acquaintance that could meet the dual requirement.

That said, remember that before all these requirements were ever dreamed up, hunters had been happily dropping 300 - 400 pound deer and half-ton buffalo, not to mention lions and tigers, who, it seemed, just didn't know that the stuff that was dropping them was below a certain level of ballistic efficiency.

tac

tac foley · 06-12-2016 8:02pm

gunny123 wrote: »

To the doj calibre equals power tac. A .38spl lever action for gallery is restricted, but a .300 win mag is unrestricted. I explained this to the inspector in the local station, and i might as well have been speaking chinese i reckon.

I know these things, Sir. That's why I posted that I was aware of the problems in the RoI with regard to calibre and muzzle energy. there is, of course, absolutely NO corollary between the two. Muzzle energy is a matter of the relationship between the weight of the shot and the velocity as it leaves the barrel, and has nothing to do with the diameter of that projectile, but its physical weight.

An example -

.308 bullet weighing 150gr @2700 fps = 2519 ft lbs m/e.

.45cal round ball weighing 146gr @1500 fps = 749 ft lbs m/e.

By the time that ball has gone a hundred yards, it has less than 450 ft lbs of energy. That .308 bullet has lost less than 280 ft lbs m/e.

A pistol calibre bullet is more than often STILL being fired at more or less pistol calibre velocities, since you don't presently reload. That would allow you to safely up the velocity a bit, but it's moot. Most of you shoot the .357Magnum or .38Special pistol loads in the underlevers that you have - factory ammunition that is, frankly, squeakpip compared with ANY centrefire rifle calibre. It's ALL restricted by virtue of its calibre, but try shooting a 300 pound buck with it at 300m and it would stand there laffin'.

tac

tac foley · 06-12-2016 9:15pm

Unlike shooting a modern centre or rimfire firearm, the BP shooter likes to encumber him or herself with a ton of so-called 'necessities'. Like any form of shooting, if you are not careful, some of these really ARE needful, and a lot are not.

Let's pretend for a minute that you are off to the hills for the day, huntin' the deer, and let's look at a few that are positively vital if you shoot a muzzle-loading arm, long or short, and ignited either by flint or percussion.

Apart from the gun itself, 'corse.

1. A powder flask to hold your bulk powder.

2. A powder measure to actually measure the load. You NEVER load dreckly from the flask into the muzzle. Ever. Period. The measure measures charges by volume, not by weight, although you migh like to actually weigh a charge out by grain weight to set the measure up. Thereafter it will probably measure withing a few grains or so - with BP it really doesn't matter much.

3. A decent ramrod, not the POS that usually accompanies the mass-produced BP arm, that's made of a bit of easy-split dowel and not the preferred ramrod material - hickory.

4. If you are shooting a flintlock, then a couple of spare flints. The best ones, as they always did, come from Brandon in Norfolk, England, but there are artificial items made of, uh, artificial stuff.

5. A touch-hole pricker - both flint and percussion arms DO clog up and hang fire - clean out after each shot with the pricker.

6. A supply of the correct diameter ball.

7. A supply of the correct thickness patch.

8. If you are shooting a percussion firearm, then a supply of spare caps of the correct size. It's not a lot of fun to find that the caps you bought in haste the other day either fall off the nipple, or simply don't go on it in the first place.

9. A short/long ball starter. This is a simple but vital tool for loading the patched ball. It is a wooden ball about three inches in diameter, with a 1" long stub set in it, and a 6" long stub that acts as a grip. You place the short end over the patched ball, and give it a whack with the palm of the hand - this sets the patched ball about an inch down the bore. You then turn it around and used the longer end to whack it down a further six inches or so, THEN use the ramrod in one motion down onto the powder until you hear the end of the ramrod make a 'ting' sound, rather than a 'thud'. This is vital to your safety, and the survival of the gun. ANY airspace 'twixt powder and ball will, when fired, turn your rifle into a very efficient pipe bomb - one that YOU are holding up to your face with both hands. So pay attention.

10. The most important thing to take along is patience. If you were shooting live game, then you'd need that in large amounts to get near enough to the game to ensure an accurate and humane shot - you are not Kit Carson. Kit Carson wasn't even Kit Carson. Most deer are taken, where legal, with a shot between 50 and 75 yards with a .45cal rifle, and not more than 100 yards with a .50, .54 or .58cal. YOU, on the other hand will have been knocked cross-eyed by the 150gr charge of FFg powder required to get a relatively flat-shooting ball out of your rifle at that range with the requisite degree of accuracy - open sights, remember?

All this, however, is an aside, as you'll only be creeping up on a piece of paper at 50 or a 100 yards of so if you are shooting a patched round ball - known as PRB, and not a nice long bullet. More of that another time.

So much for the vital bits.

Nice to have things are a set of doo-dads that screw on to the end of the ramrod to help you do stuff, like swabbing out the barrel after every shot, or, heaven forfend, pulling the ball out after doing something that EVERYBODY will do at some time, but will strenuously deny - the dreaded 'dry-balling'.

This happens when, in the heat of action, you ram that ball down the barrel, and follow it instantly by the charge of powder. Already you know that this is wrong. How to remove the ball? First, dump the powder someplace safe, and cast it to the winds. Then, put the screw on the end of the ramrod and very carefully screw it into the ball. Using a set of handy ball-pulling tongs [you HAVE got a set of handy ball-pulling tongs, right?] remove it and start again, remembering the correct order - powder, ball.

If you haven't got a set of handy ball-pulling tongs - a fancy set of handles that grips the ramrod and acts to pull it out of the barrel - you may have bought something that Kit Carson never heard of, but would have been grateful to have had. It is a CO2 ball discharger. Simply remove the nipple of the percussion rifle and insert this one, squeeze the trigger and the 12g CO2 capsule simply blows the ball out. Very nifty, and a great Christmas gift, I'm told. If, on the other hand, you dry-balled a flinter..................that can be a real problem, one that we'll look at later, AFTER you've spoiled the charge by pouring water into the touch-hole, that is.

More late - it's supper time in the tac household.

tac

Cass · 06-12-2016 9:46pm

tac foley wrote: »

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I REALLY have to get a handle on posting images here - it is just SO darned difficult!

tac

Not sure on image hosting sites as i don't use them, but to post pictures directly from your computer.

With the picture on your computer open it with paint or some similar program. Resize the image so it is not too big.
Close the image and save it as the new smaller size.
Open Boards.ie/shooting in your browser.
Go into the thread you wish to post the pictures on.
Click new reply.
Click on "Manage Attachments".
A new window will appear.
Click on "Choose File".
A new window appears that leads to the files on your computer.
Click on pictures or whatever folder contains your pictures.
Click on the file name for the picture, and then "open" in the bottom right corner of the window.
The file location appears in the "Attachment" window.
Click "upload".
Repeat this for as many pictures as you wish to upload.
Once you have all the pictures selected scroll down the attachment window, and click on "Close this window".
You are now back on the main reply box for the thread.
You may post the pictures as attachments or alternatively you can click on the attachments under the reply box.
This will open the picture in a new tab.
Click on the address/header bar of the new tab.
Go back to the tab that has the reply box open.
Click on the "Insert image icon",
Right click on the pop up, and click paste to insert the header/address into the pop up window.
Click "OK".
Repeat as necessary for all pictures.
Once done click "Post Reply".
The post will now have both pictures, and attachments.

tac foley · 07-12-2016 4:58pm

Thanks for that, Cass. It still seems a heck of palaver, TBH.

Anyhow, most of what I've been mentioning so far has been concerned with muzzleloading muskets, rifles and carbines, and harking on the flintlock era. Great fun, but can be major finicky for the newcomer. Much easier to manage are the percussion arms that rely on a small percussion cap to fire them off, rather than a complex entanglement of hammers, cocks, flint, frizzens, pans and so on.

Instead, with a percussion arm, you simply put the hammer on half-cock, place a percussion cap on the nipple, haul the hammer back to full cock, aim and shoot. There a millions of movies on Youtube showing how all this works, BTW.

As percussion arms took over from flintlocks, so too did the shape of the projectile, until by the beginning of the 1860s most everybody was shooting a variation of the so-called Minié ball. Not a ball at all, that's a translation from the French word baille, for which we get both 'ball' and 'bullet - [baillette], it was used in the Crimean War by the British and the French [who invented it]. By the time that the Americans went to war with each other, it was THE definitive bullet form and with a diameter of about .577/590", weighed in at around 535 - 565gr. Needless to say, the wounds were truly horrendous, right out to the maximum range of about 800 or so yards.

These days many of us shoot this calibre in target competition using either replica or original Pattern 53 Enfield rifles. Bullets can be bought or made, and with the sun just right, can be seen all the way to the target. On a dank day, shooting long range, they leave a contrail on their way...

See tac's guns - Musketoon, for some idea of the commotion at the shooting end.

tac

tac foley · 08-12-2016 12:23pm

Ah, one thing I haven't mentioned is actually quite important to a lot of folks here, and that's the expense of shooting BP firearms.

Well, to tell the truth, it's not only pretty cheap, but can be almost [but not quite] the cheapest element of shooting sport that you'll ever find.

See, after you've bought the rifle or musket, sorted out the cabinet and secure powder storage box, the only other tww things you'll have to replenish are the actually projectiles themselves, and, if you shoot a percussion gun, the little caps.

Caps sell for about £6/C, but the ball is something that you can easily make at home. A little gas stove, an old saucepan and some kind of a ladle are all you need - and, of course, the lead. Most of mine came from a local church roof, legally, I must add, after they had been robbed so many times that they replaced all the roofing with fake stuff that our itinerant metal dealers have no need to 'trade'. Net result, about a quarter ton of the good old-fashioned Victorian lead that they couldn't reach in their midnight escapades in 'metal dealing'. I can make around 1500 .44cal ball for less than the price of buying a hundred ready-mades. Moulds seem to last forever if cared for - none of mine are younger than 30, and are pretty cheap to buy anyhow - less than £30 here for a double ball mould.

Add to that that for economic reasons of manufacture, most BP handguns, particularly revolvers, can be bought NEW for less than £350. Many of my acquaintance were second-hand, with all the necessary accessories, for less than £250 - sold by folks giving up for one reason or another.

Never has so much fun been so cheap.

Two Youtube sites to watch, folks -

1. duellest1954 - the rather odd-shaped but VERY knowledgeable Mike Beliveau, and

2. capandball - Balász Németh of Hungary - THE man in middle Europe, and a very fine fella.

tac

tac foley · 08-12-2016 12:27pm

gunny123 wrote: »

A fly in the ointment is of course most BP firearms are large calibre, there would have to be an exemption to the .308 limit for bp rifled firearms or they would be restricted. A bit of an anomally like the pistol calibre lever actions for gallery being restricted.

So shoot smooth-bore - muskets and pistols.

Even some single-shot high end target pistols can be gotten as smooth-bored as well as rifled.

Remember the Brown Bess musket?

Smoothie.

tac

gunny123 · 08-12-2016 7:02pm

tac foley wrote: »

So shoot smooth-bore - muskets and pistols.

Even some single-shot high end target pistols can be gotten as smooth-bored as well as rifled.

Remember the Brown Bess musket?

Smoothie.

tac

That would not make any difference, if shooting a solid projectile from a smoothbore, such as a shotgun slug, then the ammunition becomes restricted. They gottcha everyway you turn.

tac foley · 08-12-2016 9:08pm

Ah, gunny, the whole thread is really one of 'what if', and not 'what is'. The idea is to get people here thinking, and any of the PTB people who might be looking in, thinking what all the fuss is about.

Ireland has a totally unblemished and honourable history of long-range target rifle shooting that stretches back to the late 1870's, when the Irish team, armed with muzzleloaders, almost cleaned the collective clocks of the American Creedmore team, shooting the latest breechloaders. But for an unlucky shot on the wrong target at the final 1000 yards, Ireland would have won the match.

As it is, a 68-year-old Irish shooter scored the unbeaten 15x15 bulls in an Olympic Games - a record that will never be broken. This was shot at a range of 1000yards, with open sights.

tac

Nekarsulm · 18-12-2016 2:45am

tac foley wrote: »

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I REALLY have to get a handle on posting images here - it is just SO darned difficult!

tac

Tac, set yourself up a Imgur.com account.
Save you selected photos to your imgur account.
Click on the desired photo, and "copy" its address.
Click on the reply box on the Boards thread you are following and "paste" the address.
Photo appears on Boards.
Don't delet photo from imgur.

tac foley · 18-12-2016 1:00pm

The trouble with these 'remote' image storage facilities is that once accessed, anybody else can also view them. And that, I don't like.

Four of the other fora I attend have direct access image posting - I click on the add image icon, select the image from my PC file, and voilá! It's there on the thread. It would be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good to be able to do that here.

tac

Grizzly 45 · 18-12-2016 3:22pm

Ok ,here's one..
Say you want to aquire a sharps rifle here in the ROI cal say 45/70
This is a BP firearm that uses metallic cartridges loaded with BP.

Is this firearm treated as;
A normal centre fire single shot rifle? IE liscenseable as unrestricted?[caliber notwithstanding]

A prohibited firearm because of the "explosive" BP ammo that might be used for evil deeds by emptying out the 100 odd shells after stealing them and making a pipe bomb??

Treated as "normal" ammo? And if so how is it imported as BP is treated as an explosive and has to be shipped Hazmat seperate from smokeless ammo?

Answers on a postcard please...

tac foley · 18-12-2016 5:04pm

Say you want to aquire a sharps rifle here in the ROI cal say 45/70
This is a BP firearm that uses metallic cartridges loaded with BP.

Not unless you load it yourself. TMK there is no BP-loaded .45-70 Govt ammunition in Europe. In the USA Buffalo Arms/Bullets make it at huge cost, but their laws and rules are quite different to those enjoyed[?] by the rest of us - http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=158179

Is this firearm treated as;
A normal centre fire single shot rifle? IE liscenseable as unrestricted?[caliber notwithstanding]

Well, all it is is a single-shot rifle, fully proofed for nitro loads, BTW, that can also shoot BP loads if required. As the calibre exceeds the .308" limit in the RoI, I'd opine that that would make it restricted under your laws?

A prohibited firearm because of the "explosive" BP ammo that might be used for evil deeds by emptying out the 100 odd shells after stealing them and making a pipe bomb??

If you have a license to hold BP, and if you also live in a part of the world where you can reload ammunition, then there is no problem. Remember that this is an ordinary rifle calibre by any standards. The ammunition is not, of itself, explosive unless detonated, usually when firing. It does not shoot an explosive [Jacobs type] projectile that is intended to explode on impact.

Treated as "normal" ammo? And if so how is it imported as BP is treated as an explosive and has to be shipped Hazmat seperate from smokeless ammo?

It IS normal ammunition, and has been since its inception back in 1870-something in its current BP format. But it is not, again AFAIK, available as factory ammunition in Europe, and, apart from Buffalo Arms Co in the USA, that's it.

tac

gunny123 · 18-12-2016 5:42pm

I seen an absolutely stunning .45-70 lever action on a dealers shelf before, it might have been his own, it was beautifully engraved as a commemeration to something or other that i can't remember now. Just the job for wild piggies, but of course restricted due to calibre.

tac foley · 18-12-2016 6:10pm

From what I've read here, restricted just means that you need to have a restricted license for it, not that it is a prohibited firearm - else even the dealer could not have it, assuming that you saw it in the Republic. In the North, of course, it's just another calibre.

So, having established that rifles in this calibre ARE available in Ireland, what's stopping you, or anybody else, from owning one and shooting it in long-range single-shot rifle shooting comps? Shooting readily-available .45-70 nitro loads of 300, 405 or 500gr bullets. At least in RoI you are spared the PITA requirements to be licensed to acquire and possess soft-point ammunition without a separate and justifiable 'good reason' as we are here in yUK. Finding just one of these rounds in my possession here opens up a five-year career opportunity as a resident of a secure room plus three squares and hard-wearing grey suit.

Sure, ammunition is never going to be bargain basement, nor is shooting .338LM like many of you do, or even .300WM?

The Midlands would appear to have ideal ranges for 1000 yard shoots..................

Just like Irish shooters used to do.

tac

Cass · 18-12-2016 6:43pm

tac foley wrote: »

I click on the add image icon, select the image from my PC file, and voilá! It's there on the thread. It would be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good to be able to do that here.

tac

You caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan! I laid out, in explicit detail the process above. Seems like a lot but its the exact same. My post shows how to embed the picture too. If you only want an attachment then skip some of the steps.

Here it is again. You only need points 3-15 and points 3, 4, 5 and 6 are just explaining how to open a new reply which you already know.

Cass wrote: »

Not sure on image hosting sites as i don't use them, but to post pictures directly from your computer.
With the picture on your computer open it with paint or some similar program. Resize the image so it is not too big.

Close the image and save it as the new smaller size.

Open Boards.ie/shooting in your browser.

Go into the thread you wish to post the pictures on.

Click new reply.

Click on "Manage Attachments".

A new window will appear.

Click on "Choose File".

A new window appears that leads to the files on your computer.

Click on pictures or whatever folder contains your pictures.

Click on the file name for the picture, and then "open" in the bottom right corner of the window.

The file location appears in the "Attachment" window.

Click "upload".

Repeat this for as many pictures as you wish to upload.

Once you have all the pictures selected scroll down the attachment window, and click on "Close this window".

You are now back on the main reply box for the thread.

You may post the pictures as attachments or alternatively you can click on the attachments under the reply box.

This will open the picture in a new tab.

Click on the address/header bar of the new tab.

Go back to the tab that has the reply box open.

Click on the "Insert image icon",

Right click on the pop up, and click paste to insert the header/address into the pop up window.

Click "OK".

Repeat as necessary for all pictures.

Once done click "Post Reply".

The post will now have both pictures, and attachments.

tac foley · 18-12-2016 7:04pm

Cass - thanks for your patience and forbearance - I'll give it a try after supper.

tac

Cass · 18-12-2016 7:13pm

No need for thanks at all. The list looks very foreboding, but it's actually not that bad.

tac foley · 18-12-2016 7:52pm

Cass, my mom raised me to be polite and say please and thank you. Forgetting either was what we called a whaling matter. She got to give me a good whaling, and as a result, I, in turn, wailed.

tac

Nekarsulm · 18-12-2016 8:04pm

tac foley wrote: »

Cass - thanks for your patience and forbearance - I'll give it a try after supper.

tac

Its a whole lot easier if you are on a lap top, awkward as can be if on a tablet or phone.

Grizzly 45 · 19-12-2016 1:05pm

tac foley wrote: »

From what I've read here, restricted just means that you need to have a restricted license for it, not that it is a prohibited firearm - else even the dealer could not have it, assuming that you saw it in the Republic. In the North, of course, it's just another calibre.

So, having established that rifles in this calibre ARE available in Ireland, what's stopping you, or anybody else, from owning one and shooting it in long-range single-shot rifle shooting comps? Shooting readily-available .45-70 nitro loads of 300, 405 or 500gr bullets. At least in RoI you are spared the PITA requirements to be licensed to acquire and possess soft-point ammunition without a separate and justifiable 'good reason' as we are here in yUK. Finding just one of these rounds in my possession here opens up a five-year career opportunity as a resident of a secure room plus three squares and hard-wearing grey suit.

Sure, ammunition is never going to be bargain basement, nor is shooting .338LM like many of you do, or even .300WM?

The Midlands would appear to have ideal ranges for 1000 yard shoots..................

Just like Irish shooters used to do.

tac

Only thing stopping me is simply I have ten smoke poles as it stands and both of the Henry St denizens have said they wouldn't be looking too favourbly on any more being issued to me.Plus I'm short about 3K for a Sharps or a nice marlin Alaskan survivor lever action.:pac:

tac foley · 19-12-2016 3:08pm

IF [big if, here, but hey, you never know, right?] a replication of the old-style Creedmore Match ever got off the ground in Ireland, it would be shot with a far cheaper Remington Rolling Block or Winchester High Wall.

Both are available from Pedersoli, Uberti and Euro Arms/Chiappa, at less adventurous prices. My three-month old High Wall from Uberti, complete with a mid-range tang sight and the remains of a box of ammunition, cost me just £600 last year.

You can see a pal's young son [aged 14, and built like an elf] shooting it on Youtube tac's guns High Wall. He's laffin' like a loon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwTYQzcyics

Home-cast 500gr bullets and 28gr of the relevant powder - not black powder = great fun @25p a shot...

tac

gunny123 · 27-12-2016 9:30pm

tac foley wrote: »

At least in RoI you are spared the PITA requirements to be licensed to acquire and possess soft-point ammunition without a separate and justifiable 'good reason' as we are here in yUK. Finding just one of these rounds in my possession here opens up a five-year career opportunity as a resident of a secure room plus three squares and hard-wearing grey suit.

tac

Not so no more Tac, the countryside alliance have lobbied and succeeded in getting expanding bullets back to section one, no longer section 5.

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/countryside-alliance-welcomes-success-amendments-improve-firearms-legislation/

tac foley · 27-12-2016 9:55pm

Well that IS some good news, for sure. Thanks for the heads-up there, Gunny. 'snot often we actually win anything back over here, but that really IS a win.

It will mean that those of us who shoot guns that actually need an old-fashioned RN bullet, like the pre-WW1 Mausers, to get any kind of accuracy at all, can actually do so.

And the Savage Model 99 owners, who have longed for an orginal-style bullet for their own guns in 30-30 can now buy the 150gr RNSP bullets they need to make it work as a magazine-fed gun, rather than a single shot.

Me, I'm off to my local store to get some 175gr RNSP for my three Mausers......Woooohoooo!

x 100

Well, I WILL after the Queen gives the Bill the nod with her signature...

Thanks again.

gunny123 · 27-12-2016 11:31pm

tac foley wrote: »

Well that IS some good news, for sure. Thanks for the heads-up there, Gunny. 'snot often we actually win anything back over here, but that really IS a win.

It will mean that those of us who shoot guns that actually need an old-fashioned RN bullet, like the pre-WW1 Mausers, to get any kind of accuracy at all, can actually do so.

And the Savage Model 99 owners, who have longed for an orginal-style bullet for their own guns in 30-30 can now buy the 150gr RNSP bullets they need to make it work as a magazine-fed gun, rather than a single shot.

Me, I'm off to my local store to get some 175gr RNSP for my three Mausers......Woooohoooo! x 100

Well, I WILL after the Queen gives the Bill the nod with her signature...

Thanks again.

Well it shows that the worm doesn't turn in one direction alone. Someone in the home office or whatever, listened to a reasoned argument, and made a sensible decision.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Black powder et al. Initial post.

Comments

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County