Irish Water Smart<de><del>Dumb meters

liamf · 28-01-2014 12:03am #1

Perhaps this is old news, but I had not heard anything specific about this, so I went and found out.

So the Irish Water company is going to install, for every household, at our expense, water meters which have (according to their website) Automated Meter Reading technology.

Today, as a tax payer with more than a passing interest in technology and such, I emailed Irish Water customer support, to ask about this metering.

I asked:
"Hi,
I would like to know if the water meter to be installed for my home will allow me to view, in real time, the water consumption of my house? How will I be able to see this?

Will it be online? If I cannot see the water consumption in real time, what will the granularity of the reports on water consumption. Basically I want to know how I can tell "live" what my water consumption is, so that I can know what the consumption of the house is (washing machine, dish washer, showers ...) rather than get a monthly quantity statement, which would not be very useful. Kind Regards
"

In fairness to Irish Water, they answered pretty promptly.

"Dear Mr. Friel,

Thank you for your recent email.

Should you wish to read your meter, please follow the following guidelines:

To obtain access to the meter box, there are three recesses on the surface of the meter box lid. You can open the lid using a flat headed screw driver. Ensure that you insert the screw driver correctly as there is a rubber seal which protects the meter from rainwater. You then remove the lid and the frost plug.

We hope you have found this information helpful.

Yours sincerely,"

I thought that was comedy gold. Just genius.

Silly taxpayer. You want modern technology, go live someplace else.

Technoprisoner · 28-01-2014 12:06am

the smart meter is for there use not yours...these meters are equipped with rfid which sends out a signal....so all the meter reader has to do is drive by the meter to take a reading

ted1 · 28-01-2014 12:07am

In fairness the cost of implementing what you want would mean that Evain would be cheaper than mains.
While they may have AMR, the technology to auto upload to a site would cost a fortune, the added strain on the battery would add more costs as would supporting the model.

They should however provide a pulse output which would enable customers to do what they want with the outputs

liamf · 28-01-2014 12:08am

Technoprisoner wrote: »

the smart meter is for there use not yours...these meters are equipped with rfid which sends out a signal....so all the meter reader has to do is drive by the meter to take a reading

Oh I know that. But why can't they tell me how to read the RFID device, or whatever other technology they are using? I am paying for the thing after all.

Is the spec and protocol public?

drunkmonkey · 28-01-2014 12:11am

Technoprisoner wrote: »

the smart meter is for there use not yours...these meters are equipped with rfid which sends out a signal....so all the meter reader has to do is drive by the meter to take a reading

Are they seriously going to have people driving by every house in the country every month? That's nuts.

liamf · 28-01-2014 12:17am

ted1 wrote: »

In fairness the cost of implementing what you want would mean that Evain would be cheaper than mains.
While they may have AMR, the technology to auto upload to a site would cost a fortune, the added strain on the battery would add more costs as would supporting the model.

They should however provide a pulse output which would enable customers to do what they want with the outputs

Oh I don't care a whit if they only do a little drive by once per 4 months and send me a bill once per year engraved on parchment.

So long as they publish how *I* can do the reading, locally.

They might not have the technological ability, but I do.

We are paying for the meters. We should have the right to read the data from then, whenever we want. And not by using a screwdriver, neither ...

cerastes · 28-01-2014 12:21am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Are they seriously going to have people driving by every house in the country every month? That's nuts.

Probably estimate it and do that every 6 months, somewhere?
Suprised they aren't trying to sell some means for the customer to do it and allow them to update it without opening the thing up, rather than suggesting everyone open the things up, or that the readable part of the meter was possible to view through a window rather than opening the entire case.

ted1 · 28-01-2014 11:18am

liamf wrote: »

Oh I don't care a whit if they only do a little drive by once per 4 months and send me a bill once per year engraved on parchment.

So long as they publish how *I* can do the reading, locally.

They might not have the technological ability, but I do.

We are paying for the meters. We should have the right to read the data from then, whenever we want. And not by using a screwdriver, neither ...

Liam, your paying for the water not the meter.

Open the lid and you can read the meter.

the meters don''t have the technological ability to be continuously read. makes you think that you do? you don't seem to be able to comprehend what you are asking for.

to make the data available for all , would deem that a common protocoll be used. and that the costs of the product be increased to cover the additionally costs.

the iskra p2G logger would be the market leading in AMR for water meters. they'll need a pulse output for this. the meter costs about €190, the battery life is 5 years, there's text costs every day, then they must develop software to capture the data. they also have to add tech support.

most meters will be located in the ground at the end of peoples drive ways for them to use a wireless product they would need to significantly boost the signal which will mean the battery life is to short. then you'll find if there a car or skip on the driveway the signal will disappear completely.

so tell us about your technological capabilities and how you are going to put in a system.

ted1 · 28-01-2014 11:21am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Are they seriously going to have people driving by every house in the country every month? That's nuts.

well at the moment you have an ESB reading taking 4 times a year and if you have gas you have someone reading the gas meter, as Irish Water is a subsidy of the Board Gais, they may team up adn read both meters at the same time.

hell they could set up a new meter reading quango that'll read the three meters

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 28-01-2014 11:29am

ted1 wrote: »

Liam, your paying for the water not the meter.

Open the lid and you can read the meter.

the meters don''t have the technological ability to be continuously read. makes you think that you do? you don't seem to be able to comprehend what you are asking for.

to make the data available for all , would deem that a common protocoll be used. and that the costs of the product be increased to cover the additionally costs.

the iskra p2G logger would be the market leading in AMR for water meters. they'll need a pulse output for this. the meter costs about €190, the battery life is 5 years, there's text costs every day, then they must develop software to capture the data. they also have to add tech support.

most meters will be located in the ground at the end of peoples drive ways for them to use a wireless product they would need to significantly boost the signal which will mean the battery life is to short. then you'll find if there a car or skip on the driveway the signal will disappear completely.

so tell us about your technological capabilities and how you are going to put in a system.

As far as I can make out you are actually being charged for the meter. At a vastly inflated cost to what its actually worth too.

liamf · 28-01-2014 2:30pm

ted1 wrote: »

Liam, your paying for the water not the meter.

Incorrect. I am also going to pay for the meter and the installation cost of the meter, over a number of years. At a hugely inflated cost, no doubt. So are you.

What, you think they are installing the meters *for free*?

ted1 wrote: »

Open the lid and you can read the meter.

Ah seriously now. We are going to the trouble of digging up the entire country to install water meters everywhere and are you seriously suggesting that they install 19th century technology which we will have to make do with for the next 30 years?

<large random rambling deleted>

I installed (myself) a solar powered battery backed current sensor on my main electricity feed into my property. I built the system to read that data myself, mainly using open source hardware and software, and designed the solar power battery charger myself. It shows me the electricity consumption for my home, in realtime, reading taken every 15 seconds, logged to a database.

I can do that because the feed into my house is easily accessible.

It is genuinely useful in helping energy conservation, because it allows you to see (and read) the actual consumption of electricity in your home.

A total that you get once per 2 or 4 months is utterly useless in reducing consumption, because the granularity of the readings is too low: you cannot see a change you make having an immediate impact.

the meters don''t have the technological ability to be continuously read.
...
to make the data available for all , would deem that a common protocoll be used.

That is precisely my point. Exactly. Why, if you are going to the trouble of putting in meters which will last for 30 years, are we *not* putting in meters which can give instantaneous flow readings and which use open protocols for transmitting data, so that a homeowner can monitor their own consumption.

Irish Water state that they will have the ability to read the meters without lifting lids on meters.

Either a) they are telling porkies, or b) if they are not, I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to publish how to do this.

So that I can do it for my own house. I am not suggesting that I do it for the entire country.

ted1 · 28-01-2014 5:51pm

liamf wrote: »

Incorrect. I am also going to pay for the meter and the installation cost of the meter, over a number of years. At a hugely inflated cost, no doubt. So are you.

What, you think they are installing the meters *for free*?

Ah seriously now. We are going to the trouble of digging up the entire country to install water meters everywhere and are you seriously suggesting that they install 19th century technology which we will have to make do with for the next 30 years? The Meter have no where near a 30 year life span

<large random rambling deleted>

I installed (myself) a solar powered battery backed current sensor on my main electricity feed into my property. I built the system to read that data myself, mainly using open source hardware and software, and designed the solar power battery charger myself. It shows me the electricity consumption for my home, in real time, reading taken every 15 seconds, logged to a database.I have designed many large scale commercial systems, from hardware to software and am currently the senior engineer with one of the worlds leading energy management systems provider. electricity is very easy to measure and monitor in relation to water and gas

I can do that because the feed into my house is easily accessible. So why not do the same for water, the mains more than likely goes under the kitchen sink then up to the attic. P.S its bad practice to sample electricity in 15 second intervals

It is genuinely useful in helping energy conservation, because it allows you to see (and read) the actual consumption of electricity in your home.

A total that you get once per 2 or 4 months is utterly useless in reducing consumption, because the granularity of the readings is too low: you cannot see a change you make having an immediate impact.

That is precisely my point. Exactly. Why, if you are going to the trouble of putting in meters which will last for 30 years, are we *not* putting in meters which can give instantaneous flow readings and which use open protocols for transmitting data, so that a homeowner can monitor their own consumption.
its very bad practice to use flow rates, you need a quantified signal. you have not addressed the issue of how to get a reliable signal from a meter encased in concrete and steel at a property boundary to transmit without interference to a property

Irish Water state that they will have the ability to read the meters without lifting lids on meters.

Either a) they are telling porkies, or b) if they are not, I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to publish how to do this.
why should they publish it, Water meters can be read via AMR.

So that I can do it for my own house. I am not suggesting that I do it for the entire country.

see above

liamf · 31-01-2014 11:48pm

I have had some highly entertaining conversations with Irish Water customer support.

Basically, the meters to be installed are manufactured by either Itron or Diehl.

Both meter types for domestic houses are standard analog types (probably rotary piston type) with a clip on module to allow remote reading.

The Diehl ones are their IZAR brand, which transmits data using the M-Bus system. I imagine that the Itron ones are also M-Bus, for compatibility. And this is an industry standard.

The IZAR meters claim 15-year lifetime using a lithium cell in the clip-on module.
Transmission is in the 868Mhz standard unlicensed band.

This technology has a theoretical max range of 100m, on those modules, according to IZAR documentation, however I bet you that is in air. However I have had good success with 868MHz radio modules through concrete walls and such at a range of 10-20m. So reading my meter from my house would, in principle, be no problem.

You can buy M-Bus receiver modules easily from any number of places. Like here: http://amber-wireless.de/409-1-AMB8426-M.html for instance.

That, of course, is where the good news ends, for the moment.

All the data transmitted by the meters is encrypted, standard AES encryption. This is fair enough: if it was not encrypted, then any technically competent housebreaker could drive about an estate and determine to a very high degree of accuracy which houses were unoccupied.

However I don't want to read the data from all the houses. I just want to read *my* data. When I asked Irish Water if the encryption keys are unique per water meter (I believe that they are, that would be typical), they just ignored the question. They have ignored it several times, in fact.

Their statement is that "The data being transmitted from the meter is encrypted and can only be read by and stored on Irish Water technology in order to remain compliant with Data Protection regulations"

I sort of doubt if Data Protection regulations require that they encrypt my personal consumption data, and refuse to tell me what the decryption key is.

Irish Water have no interest at all in letting you read your own meter. It is somewhat unclear why. Well, apart from the obvious: the purpose of the water meters is not to help you conserve water, it is to make it easier for them to charge you for water. They do not care at all if you have a leak, so long as you pay for the water that leak consumes.

Paradoxically the fact that they can read the meter remotely means that they can make it *less* accessible to homeowners: homeowners did not get a choice to install the meter inside their premises, where it would be easy to read. Now, officially, if I want to read my meter, I need to open meter cases outside on the footpath.

All terrifically entertaining, so I am still going to see if I can get Irish Water to give me the decryption key for my (yet to be installed) meter.

cerastes · 01-02-2014 1:43pm

I never really considered they might install them inside , but its probably not a bad idea,
Upsides would be they should be less susceptible to freezing, and maybe have access to power/network connection.

I can see the downsides, maybe people might be more inclined to try and tamper with them or bypass them, and then access to read them woould not be as easy given m ost kitchens will be at the back of the house, not to mention having to access the property, which might be a concern for abuse by anyone intent on crime/deceitfully gaining access.

Would it not be just as useful for a homeowner to have their own meter, ie a flow meter, as a means to confirm the usage, something inline accessible to verify the water meter readings?

liamf · 01-02-2014 1:48pm

cerastes wrote: »

Would it not be just as useful for a homeowner to have their own meter, ie a flow meter, as a means to confirm the usage, something inline accessible to verify the water meter readings?

Yes, and probably that's what we'll have to do.

i.e. pay for two meters, because they won't give us access to the live data from the one they are installing outside (which we are also paying for).

HandoLogan · 15-02-2014 12:20pm

All this talk of water meters, their installation, how easy it can be to read them and not one comment about refusing to pay the water charges or preventing the installation of the meters, what are you all, fecken sheep, the parasites that run this country say jump and you people ask, how high, for Christ sake stop drinking that fluoridated poison and stand up for yourselves.

Here is the list Alain O Donaile used to keep #IrishWater or chuir ort do geansaí glas #UisceÉireann from installing a water meter outside his house. Alain has graciously given me permission to share his genius.

Hope it helps many others in the fightback against what the IMF call Structural Adjustment aka sell-out of our country. GRMA Alain a chara.

1) A copy of the road opening certificate obtained by the contractors, from Fingal Co.Co. dated and signed by the council engineer.

2) Documentation that grants permission to restrict and/or block access or egress to my address.

3) A contractors method statement outlining the methods, schedule and duration of any works to be carried out.

4) A current company health and safety statement.

5) Copies of the safe passes and trades certification of the personnel involved in the operation.

6) Copies of the certification of competency for operators of heavy machinery / mechanical excavators.

7) A signed statement from the contractors and /or his agents declaring unequivocally that I bear no responsibility, now or in the future for any mechanical device that may be installed adjacent to, but outside the boundary walls of my property.

I demand respectfully that no works are carried out without my agreement, pending the receipt of the above documentation.

drynne · 28-02-2014 12:10am

As far as I know contractors are working on behalf of Irish Water so under the Water Services act so arent they allowed to install meters in public property? With regards the qualifications and the like im assuming thats protected under data protection or something? People are hardly going to give irate householders a copy of their cert with their picture and personal information on it. Im sure they will argue that theres some Health and Safety reasoning behind blocking access and egress so you dont fall into a great big dirty hole and get a massive claim.

If people dont want to pay for water they get off local authorities then drill a well on their own private property and pay for the treatment and the maintenance and all those costs. I find it daft how we are one of the only counties in Europe that doesnt pay for water and has probably pumped the most money into upgrading ancient crocks of water supply systems because it has to match the EU standards. Money has to be recouped some way.....

championc · 27-03-2014 7:32am

Anyone find a decent flow meter that could be installed in the house, AFTER the stopcock, that could then be hooked up to my Raspberry Pi and output the data to Xively.com ?

I already use my Pi to send my Electricity Usage (from an Airtricity badged CurrentCost cc128) and my Kingspan Solar system data to Xively

ted1 · 28-03-2014 5:26pm

whats your budget?

there's any endless amount of meters

a simple pulse meter connected to a p2g or p2w logger would be the easiest way to do it. http://www.iskraemeco.co.uk/index_files/Page485.php

then send the data to http://www.smsmetering.co.uk/my-account/

has anyone asked Irish Water if they can provide a pulse output?

championc · 28-03-2014 7:33pm

ted1 wrote: »

has anyone asked Irish Water if they can provide a pulse output?

Even with a pulse output, I have no intention of digging my driveway and path outside to lay a cable.

Dr Turk Turkelton · 28-03-2014 7:40pm

championc wrote: »

Even with a pulse output, I have no intention of digging my driveway and path outside to lay a cable.

Will people's driveways have to be dug up to install these meters?

championc · 28-03-2014 7:44pm

ted1 wrote: »

has anyone asked Irish Water if they can provide a pulse output?

Even with a pulse output, I have no intention of digging my driveway and path outside to lay a cable.

ted1 · 28-03-2014 9:48pm

championc wrote: »

Even with a pulse output, I have no intention of digging my driveway and path outside to lay a cable.

That's why I suggested those data loggers. They've a super cap that lasts for 6 years and a sim.
Designed for remote locations.

ted1 · 28-03-2014 9:50pm

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Will people's driveways have to be dug up to install these meters?

No not the way I said it.
Failing that most people's fed goes to the kitchen and then up to the attic do a meter fitted behind the sink will capture the while supply

DeVore · 20-05-2014 2:27pm

Arise Thread!!

So, today they came and installed meters outside my house. They laid out all their kit and then (as per irish workmen rules) went for a cuppa.

I nipped out and snapped a pic of the meter which has some identifying stuff on it. A QR code by the looks of it, a P/N number and a S/N number...

Anything I can do with these numbers?

liamf · 20-05-2014 2:34pm

DeVore wrote: »

Arise Thread!!

So, today they came and installed meters outside my house. They laid out all their kit and then (as per irish workmen rules) went for a cuppa.

I nipped out and snapped a pic of the meter which has some identifying stuff on it. A QR code by the looks of it, a P/N number and a S/N number...

Anything I can do with these numbers?

Ah, you remind me about this little issue.

Well definitely keep them safe for the moment.

What does the QR code encode, as a matter of interest? (Don't post anything specific/identifying, but just in general, what does it encode? A URL or a string of digits?)

No idea when I will be getting a meter installed, but I have been considering asking my local representatives to go see if they can force Irish Water to release AES keys for individual meters in response to a request from a homeowner.

vicwatson · 03-10-2014 1:39pm

I read my meter two weeks ago and it read (Black Numbers) 00055 (Red) 790

1 week later I checked it again, it read (Black Number) 00058 (Red) 492

Anyone please advise what in effect amount of water I've used?

What's the Maths here? I know it's subtraction but don't get what's hundreds of litres and thousands of litres

TIA

EDIT - Maybe this is the wrong place to ask this? is there a specific thread for such questions? Cheers

drynne · 03-10-2014 2:20pm

Black numbers are cubic metres, red numbers are litres. There is 1000 litres in 1 cubic metre. So the original reading is 55.790 cubic metres (m3) or 55790 litres.

Average consumption is roughly between 150-200 litres per day per person.

Technoprisoner · 03-10-2014 2:21pm

vicwatson wrote: »

I read my meter two weeks ago and it read (Black Numbers) 00055 (Red) 790

1 week later I checked it again, it read (Black Number) 00058 (Red) 492

Anyone please advise what in effect amount of water I've used?

What's the Maths here? I know it's subtraction but don't get what's hundreds of litres and thousands of litres

TIA

EDIT - Maybe this is the wrong place to ask this? is there a specific thread for such questions? Cheers

about 3000 ltrs

Andy From Sligo · 03-10-2014 5:08pm

vicwatson wrote: »

I read my meter two weeks ago and it read (Black Numbers) 00055 (Red) 790

1 week later I checked it again, it read (Black Number) 00058 (Red) 492

Anyone please advise what in effect amount of water I've used?

What's the Maths here? I know it's subtraction but don't get what's hundreds of litres and thousands of litres

TIA

EDIT - Maybe this is the wrong place to ask this? is there a specific thread for such questions? Cheers

glad to hear you can actually read your meter with ease - on my one the stupid cyber blue wireless module thats attached on top is nearly covering the digits on mine, couple that with the fact the digits are small and the meter is way down in the ground and covered in dirt and sh1te and that i have bad eyesite this is gonna be a pain in the *rse for me to read it reguarly in the future!

RainyDay · 03-10-2014 5:26pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

couple that with the fact the digits are small and the meter is way down in the ground and covered in dirt and sh1te and that i have bad eyesite this is gonna be a pain in the *rse for me to read it reguarly in the future!

A half-decent camera with a half-decent zoom and flash should do the job.

Irish Water Smart<de><del>Dumb meters

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