If Catholic Church had a new leader...

Doc · 02-03-2012 3:33am #1

Reading the other thread I wondered if the pope was to pass away and a new pope was chosen who attempted to modernise the church and did the following:

1: Apologised unreservedly for the sins perpetrated by members of the Catholic Church in the past and to refuse to offer protection to said parties, help bring them to justice and to bring any future criminals to justice.

2: Preached that tolerance and respect for one and other was the most important teaching of the church and that though some aspects of modern life went against the traditional teaching of the church, (such as homosexuality and contraception) it was no ones else’s place to judge these choices or people but the person in question and God.

3: Started selling off buildings and the huge collections of art owned by the church and funneling most of the funds directly into charity work for the poor in society and the rest to purchasing more meager functional properties.

Would your attitude toward the Catholic Church change for the better? I appreciate that the artiest or people of other religions are not going to suddenly believe in anything they didn’t before but would you have more respect for the religion or its practitioners?

Would agnostics or lapsed Catholics be tempted to return to the church?

Would you want the new head of the church to do more and if so what?

I always hear a lot of negativity about the current pope that you would not necessarily have heard about the previous pope or leaders of other religions such as the Dalai Lama.

Do currently practicing Catholics see the three points above as unreasonable or unrealistic things to happen?

(To clarify my own thoughts I am Agnostic but like most Irish people was brought up within the traditional Catholic church. I would welcome these changes and it might make me more inclined to go to church.)

Sindri · 02-03-2012 3:38am

Doc wrote: »

2: Preached that tolerance and respect for one and other was the most important teaching of the church and that though some aspects of modern life went against the traditional teaching of the church, (such as homosexuality and contraception) it was no ones else’s place to judge these choices or people but the person in question and God.

Wouldn't happen, they've lured quite a few North American conservative protestants to Rome by their stances on social issues.

Bidness doing good!

Sauve · 02-03-2012 3:38am

It wouldn't convince me to go back to the Church, for me the damage has been done. Long before the current popes' time too.
Then again, I'm dubious about organised religion for various other reasons, so I'm biased to begin with.
It might however help a new wave of younger children into the church, say, those that are in primary school now. Our generation and the ones above us have seen too much.

krudler · 02-03-2012 3:41am

No, because the concept is still batsh1t insane no matter who's calling the shots. The damage has been done and long may it continue.

Sauve · 02-03-2012 3:42am

krudler wrote: »

The damage has been done and long may it continue.

Huh?

krudler · 02-03-2012 3:45am

Sauve wrote: »

Huh?

the damage the church has done to itself, falling attendences, people disenchanted with the organisation etc, the longer that goes on the better

Doc · 02-03-2012 3:45am

krudler wrote: »

No, because the concept is still batsh1t insane no matter who's calling the shots. The damage has been done and long may it continue.

Don't really understand the last part of this but in relation to the first, do you feel the same towards all other religions?

Fromthetrees · 02-03-2012 3:45am

Lets just eat some cheese, sit back and listen to 60s music, is that cool?

Doc · 02-03-2012 3:47am

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Lets just eat some cheese, sit back and listen to 60s music, is that cool?

What kind of cheese?

Bipolar Joe · 02-03-2012 3:47am

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Lets just eat some cheese, sit back and listen to 60s music, is that cool?

I don't really like cheese, so fuck you and your party.

fcussen · 02-03-2012 3:48am

Doc wrote: »

3: Started selling off buildings and the huge collections of art owned by the church and funneling most of the funds directly into charity work for the poor in society and the rest to purchasing more meager functional properties.

What would this charity work involve? Preaching to the poor that they should accept their lot and not to try to improve their situation because they will be rewarded in the kingdom of heaven? Denying painkillers to dying people a la Mother Teresa because their suffering and poverty will bring them closer to Jesus? Telling uneducated Africans that AIDS is evil but condoms are worse?

Sauve · 02-03-2012 3:49am

krudler wrote: »

the damage the church has done to itself, falling attendences, people disenchanted with the organisation etc, the longer that goes on the better

Agreed. I can't see a major turnaround having a fast enough impact.
That said, as humans, we (society) need something to gravitate towards/worship.
Whats the alternative to organised religion? Or is it just the Catholic church that you've a problem with?

Warper · 02-03-2012 3:49am

It took me years to realise this but anyone that believes in religion is not thinking. Whose religion is best then? Its all bull and the sooner, we as a human race faces up to this fact, the better we will all be.

alandublin33 · 02-03-2012 3:49am

I think bravestar would be an excellent leader of the church , he'd take no crap yet be fair, and if things got hairy he'd call on 30 30 and his Sarah Jane to sort things out.

Doc · 02-03-2012 3:50am

fcussen wrote: »

What would this charity work involve? Preaching to the poor that they should accept their lot and not to try to improve their situation because they will be rewarded in the kingdom of heaven? Denying painkillers to dying people a la Mother Teresa because their suffering and poverty will bring them closer to Jesus? Telling uneducated Africans that AIDS is evil but condoms are worse?

Ah yes Im sure no Catholic charity work has ever helped anyone how silly of me to think that it might.

fcussen · 02-03-2012 3:56am

There are plenty of organisations such as Oxfam that help the needy but manage to refrain from preaching the evils of johnnies

krudler · 02-03-2012 3:56am

Sauve wrote: »

Agreed. I can't see a major turnaround having a fast enough impact.
That said, as humans, we (society) need something to gravitate towards/worship.
Whats the alternative to organised religion? Or is it just the Catholic church that you've a problem with?

do we though? more and more people are beginning to realise that maybe, just maybe, basing morals and ethics based on a book written by bronze age people is...kinda nuts. religion has been the cause of so much, hatred, mysogny, suffering, war, fearmongering, and downright evil acts its hard to think we need that in our lives anymore.

Sauve · 02-03-2012 4:00am

krudler wrote: »

do we though? more and more people are beginning to realise that maybe, just maybe, basing morals and ethics based on a book written by bronze age people is...kinda nuts. religion has been the cause of so much, hatred, mysogny, suffering, war, fearmongering, and downright evil acts its hard to think we need that in our lives anymore.

Maybe I phrased it wrongly. Personally I don't need a religion or something to worship, but I think a lot of people would seek out guidance/rules/someone to tell them what to do. I could be wrong, but to me modern society reeks of rule-following, sheepish behaviour.

krudler · 02-03-2012 4:01am

Doc wrote: »

Ah yes Im sure no Catholic charity work has ever helped anyone how silly of me to think that it might.

depends on your definition of help really doesnt it, Mother Teresa "helped" people by teaching suffering and poverty was a way to be closer to god, had draconian opinions on womens views and abortion and set up establishments where people went to die in misery instead of being helped or cured. the church has brought the word of god to African villages but not the knowledge of birth control or safe sex, because god doesnt like that does he, apparently he'd much rather see AIDS spread around than a thin piece of rubber used to stop disease spreading and people having a better knowledge of disease and how to protect themselves.

krudler · 02-03-2012 4:03am

Sauve wrote: »

Maybe I phrased it wrongly. Personally I don't need a religion or something to worship, but I think a lot of people would seek out guidance/rules/someone to tell them what to do. I could be wrong, but to me modern society reeks of rule-following, sheepish behaviour.

this is a question Bill Maher asked someone so it suits this topic "do you really think if it wasnt in the bible we wouldnt have figured out it was wrong to murder each other and take each others stuff by now?"

Doc · 02-03-2012 4:04am

fcussen wrote: »

There are plenty of organisations such as Oxfam that help the needy but manage to refrain from preaching the evils of johnnies

So because there are organisations such as Oxfam you believe that the Catholic Church should not use its money to help the needy? Don't get me wrong I understand what you are saying about trying to convert people they are helping to a certain extent but the Catholic Church dose do a lot of good charity work in the world too and I think it would be good if it made an effort to do more.

Napper Hawkins · 02-03-2012 4:05am

Sauve wrote: »

Agreed. I can't see a major turnaround having a fast enough impact.
That said, as humans, we (society) need something to gravitate towards/worship.
Whats the alternative to organised religion? Or is it just the Catholic church that you've a problem with?

What's this 'we' business? Speak for yourself.
EDIT: Ah I get ya. Never mind.

Sauve · 02-03-2012 4:09am

krudler wrote: »

this is a question Bill Maher asked someone so it suits this topic "do you really think if it wasnt in the bible we wouldnt have figured out it was wrong to murder each other and take each others stuff by now?"

No I hear ya, I was referring to society in general needing rules to follow, which was kind of off-topic.
I do believe that organised religion is on the way out, and quickly too, with the Catholic one being the first to go. People are afraid though, I think that's half the reason why it's still there. There's a deep-rooted belief from childhood of the 'God sitting on a cloud' who'll send you to hell if you touch yourself and don't say your prayers.
Something that was drilled into us by our parents and teachers can be difficult to fully remove.

fcussen · 02-03-2012 4:13am

Sauve wrote: »

No I hear ya, I was referring to society in general needing rules to follow, which was kind of off-topic.
I do believe that organised religion is on the way out, and quickly too, with the Catholic one being the first to go. People are afraid though, I think that's half the reason why it's still there. There's a deep-rooted belief from childhood of the 'God sitting on a cloud' who'll send you to hell if you touch yourself and don't say your prayers.
Something that was drilled into us by our parents and teachers can be difficult to fully remove.

The Catholic Church might be on the wane in Ireland but it's certainly not if you look at the entire world

Sauve · 02-03-2012 4:15am

fcussen wrote: »

The Catholic Church might be on the wane in Ireland but it's certainly not if you look at the entire world

Ah I dunno, the decline may be slower in other countries, but I think it's still happening. Though this is just my perception, I don't have any facts to back this up.

krudler · 02-03-2012 4:18am

Sauve wrote: »

No I hear ya, I was referring to society in general needing rules to follow, which was kind of off-topic.
I do believe that organised religion is on the way out, and quickly too, with the Catholic one being the first to go. People are afraid though, I think that's half the reason why it's still there. There's a deep-rooted belief from childhood of the 'God sitting on a cloud' who'll send you to hell if you touch yourself and don't say your prayers.
Something that was drilled into us by our parents and teachers can be difficult to fully remove.

thats the thing, so many people , catholics especially, just follow whatever religion they're raised with,why? because....well thats the why. I lost my faith, or what little I had anyway when I was in my early teens, even in primary school I kinda twigged that...maybe this is all bullsh1t, the more I thought about it the more I knew it just doesnt add up, a belief system based on assumptions that people in the bronze age knew what would happen after this life (they didnt , nobody does, end of) and not only that but with such descriptive terms for stuff that not one single person in the history of mankind has any, ANY knowledge or actual experience of is just crazy to me. its all morality tales and fables that have gotten jumbled up into false truths and used to keep people in check for centuries along with being a great tax free money earning enterprise. jesus taught the way of a simple life without the need for money or treasure, the vatican is a palace with immeasurable wealth, yeah that adds up alright.

Doc · 02-03-2012 4:19am

Sauve wrote: »

Ah I dunno, the decline may be slower in other countries, but I think it's still happening. Though this is just my perception, I don't have any facts to back this up.

From Wikipedia:

Membership statistics
Further information: Catholicism by country

Total church membership (both lay and clerical) in 2007 was 1.147 billion people,[40] increasing from the 1950 figure of 437 million[41] and the 1970 figure of 654 million.[42] On 31 December 2008, membership was 1.166 billion, an increase of 11.54% over the same date in 2000, only slightly greater than the rate of increase of the world population (10.77%). The increase was 33.02% in Africa, but only 1.17% in Europe. It was 15.91% in Asia, 11.39% in Oceania, and 10.93% in the Americas. As a result, Catholics were 17.77% of the total population in Africa, 63.10% in the Americas, 3.05% in Asia, 39.97% in Europe, 26.21% in Oceania, and 17.40% of the world population.

Of the world's Catholics, the proportion living in Africa grew from 12.44% in 2000 to 14.84% in 2008, while those living in Europe fell from 26.81% to 24.31%.[43] Membership in the Catholic Church is attained through baptism or reception into the Church (for individuals previously baptised in non-Catholic Christian churches).[44] For some years until 2009, if someone formally left the Church, that fact was noted in the register of the person's baptism.

At the end of 2007, Vatican records listed 408,024 Catholic priests in the world, 762 more than at the beginning of the year. The main growth areas have been Asia and Africa, with 21.1 per cent and 27.6 per cent growth respectively. In North and South America, numbers have remained approximately the same, while there was a 6.8 per cent decline in Europe and a 5.5 per cent decrease in Oceania from 2000 to 2007.[40]

Napper Hawkins · 02-03-2012 4:20am

krudler wrote: »

thats the thing, so many people , catholics especially, just follow whatever religion they're raised with,why? because....well thats the why. I lost my faith, or what little I had anyway when I was in my early teens, even in primary school I kinda twigged that...maybe this is all bullsh1t, the more I thought about it the more I knew it just doesnt add up, a belief system based on assumptions that people in the bronze age knew what would happen after this life (they didnt , nobody does, end of) and not only that but with such descriptive terms for stuff that not one single person in the history of mankind has any, ANY knowledge or actual experience of is just crazy to me. its all morality tales and fables that have gotten jumbled up into false truths and used to keep people in check for centuries along with being a great tax free money earning enterprise. jesus taught the way of a simple life without the need for money or treasure, the vatican is a palace with immeasurable wealth, yeah that adds up alright.

Bang on.

Sauve · 02-03-2012 4:21am

krudler wrote: »

thats the thing, so many people , catholics especially, just follow whatever religion they're raised with,why? because....well thats the why. I lost my faith, or what little I had anyway when I was in my early teens, even in primary school I kinda twigged that...maybe this is all bullsh1t, the more I thought about it the more I knew it just doesnt add up, a belief system based on assumptions that people in the bronze age knew what would happen after this life (they didnt , nobody does, end of) and not only that but with such descriptive terms for stuff that not one single person in the history of mankind has any, ANY knowledge or actual experience of is just crazy to me. its all morality tales and fables that have gotten jumbled up into false truths and used to keep people in check for centuries along with being a great tax free money earning enterprise. jesus taught the way of a simple life without the need for money or treasure, the vatican is a palace with immeasurable wealth, yeah that adds up alright.

Summed up perfectly.
All I can add to this is the following statement;

Dinosaur bones were put there by evil-doers to test your faith in God.
Have blind faith and all will be well.

Doc · 02-03-2012 4:21am

krudler wrote: »

its all morality tales and fables that have gotten jumbled up into false truths and used to keep people in check for centuries along with being a great tax free money earning enterprise. jesus taught the way of a simple life without the need for money or treasure, the vatican is a palace with immeasurable wealth, yeah that adds up alright.

So if they did implement the 3rd point I said surely you would have more respect for them?

Sauve · 02-03-2012 4:22am

Thanks Doc -
Bit of an eye-opener there, I wouldn't have thought that at all.

Edit: Re the increasing numbers in Catholic church.

If Catholic Church had a new leader...

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