Shooting Incident in Newport, Co Tipp

02-02-2012 9:40pm

BrianD wrote: »

Still doesn't stack up.

Let's say every division or county had an armed response unit. Would they have got there in the time that this event unfolded? Unlikely. Put this incident another 10K into the countryside and they probably wouldn't even find them.

The only solution to reverse this state of affairs is to arm all members. There is no public appetite for this and nor do I believe a necessity. Armed units are required but in my view these units - as in the UK - aren't really being trained to respond to this type of event i.e where somebody may appear be in a confused or distressed state and armed . It's rare that you hear of a successful outcome to this type of event.

Gardai since the foundation of the State have accepted that they are policing the community unarmed. There have always been armed criminals and situation where supposedly 5 people in 100 have a legal firearm.

However, I would agree that you do tend to take a cop with a gun more seriously in any situation.

Just because you only read about armed incidents in the news doesn't mean they don't happen. Most of the encounters the members are lucky and get the gow or they get away.

d3exile · 02-02-2012 10:44pm

BrianD wrote: »

Gardai since the foundation of the State have accepted that they are policing the community unarmed. There have always been armed criminals and situation where supposedly 5 people in 100 have a legal firearm.

It's not 1922 anymore.

90years on and the scrotes on the street are a hell of a lot tougher than the public seem to understand.

Zambia · 03-02-2012 12:21am

BrianD wrote: »

Still doesn't stack up.

Let's say every division or county had an armed response unit. Would they have got there in the time that this event unfolded? Unlikely. Put this incident another 10K into the countryside and they probably wouldn't even find them.

I agree totally I am for arming all members.

BrianD wrote: »

The only solution to reverse this state of affairs is to arm all members. There is no public appetite for this and nor do I believe a necessity.

I was the Irish public and if the Garda said the need was there then I would see no reason to cause a fuss. If I called 999 for help due to an armed incident I want someone to come and help not keep me company while they radio someone else.

BrianD wrote: »

Gardai since the foundation of the State have accepted that they are policing the community unarmed. There have always been armed criminals and situation where supposedly 5 people in 100 have a legal firearm.

Times change in the end its up to the rank and file to demand this.

brinks_18476 · 03-02-2012 9:53am

savagecabbages wrote: »

But what do you arm Gardai with? Where do you stop?
I cant see rank & file being given high powered weapons.
As mentioned the man had a long range weapon, if he wanted to take on armed Gardai he would simply out-range them. But then again if he had ill intentions towards Gardai from the outset he would have done that anyway before the altercation started...

I think this was a one-off case with someone who had lost the plot, not an indication of a trend.

Tazer would be a good measure. Non lethal and very effective at close range.

If these brave gardai were equipped with Tazer thet would have been in a position to preserve ALL lives as well as drastically reducing the risk they were exposed to.

A basic risk assessment of this or similar scenarios which can and does occur at any time will show that gardai at UNNECESSARILY being put at risk when there are feasible control measures available (eg Tazer) which would reduce the risk substantially.

AGS are breaching health and safety law IMO.

Look at UK police. Every other cop is issued with Tazer thesr days. Why? Because risk assesments have identified the dangers and Tazer is a further control measure to reduce the risk.

Zambia · 03-02-2012 10:39am

With the greatest respect brinks a tazer is not a alternative for a firearm. Its a great device and as an add on to a Firearm its great.

But Sean Connerys quote is correct
If he brings a knife you bring a gun.

The cops should always be one level of force up from the offender.

Interesting read here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7608882.stm

Its all about risk management of the police the offender can give up at any time.

POGAN · 03-02-2012 11:08am

Zambia wrote: »

With the greatest respect brinks a tazer is not a alternative for a firearm. Its a great device and as an add on to a Firearm its great.

But Sean Connerys quote is correct
If he brings a knife you bring a gun.

The cops should always be one level of force up from the offender.

Interesting read here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7608882.stm

Its all about risk management of the police the offender can give up at any time.

My idea will work give traffic tazers, there trained drivers have units in every town . They wouldn't cost that huge amount

What ye think?

Locust · 03-02-2012 11:15am

i dont think you should taser someone who has their finger on a trigger... Im for arming uniform members. 1st responders MUST be able to deal with worst case scenario.

That scenario could have easily turned very nasty - national tragedy.

Its a disgrace that law enforcement would have little choice but to confront an angry deranged person with.... pepper spray or a steel pipe... or have to run and hide and be left defenseless behind a car whilst he could shoot them one at a time, whilst waiting for armed members coming from god know how far away.

Respect to the guys. But its a joke that they are required to risk their lives like that. Yes this is just one incident but 'angry deranged type' people snapping are a trend on the rise in this day and age, the world is going mad remember?

The old quote "its better to have a firearm and not need it, than to need a firearm and not have one!"

Zambia · 03-02-2012 11:30am

POGAN wrote: »

My idea will work give traffic tazers, there trained drivers have units in every town . They wouldn't cost that huge amount

What ye think?

Depends what you are aiming for.

If I have a a 15 Shot semi auto pistol with rounds that should penetrate most clothing

You have a 1/2 shot tazer with a range of 6 metres that fires a barb that could easily get tangled on a padded heavy coat( Irish weather).

Who is more likely to win?

Zambia · 03-02-2012 11:30am

POGAN wrote: »

My idea will work give traffic tazers, there trained drivers have units in every town . They wouldn't cost that huge amount

What ye think?

Depends what you are aiming for.

If I have a a 15 Shot semi auto pistol with rounds that should penetrate most clothing

You have a 1/2 shot tazer with a range of 6 metres that fires a barb that could easily get tangled on a padded heavy coat( Irish weather).

Who is more likely to win?

MagicSean · 03-02-2012 12:15pm

You can't really advocate arming gardai unless you are willing to support them when they use them and come up with acceptable rules of engagement too. Let's say there is a man with a knife who refuses to drop it. At present a Garda can spray him and use his baton. This would be an effective counter measure. Now let's add a pistol to his equipment. What equipment should now be used? Are we prepared for this man to be shot when previously he would have been subdued? When you look at the cases of gardai being prosecuted and sued for rough arrests I don't think the protection would be provided to allow gardai to use their firearm.

brinks_18476 · 03-02-2012 12:28pm

Zambia wrote: »

With the greatest respect brinks a tazer is not a alternative for a firearm. Its a great device and as an add on to a Firearm its great.

But Sean Connerys quote is correct
If he brings a knife you bring a gun.

The cops should always be one level of force up from the offender.

Interesting read here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7608882.stm

Its all about risk management of the police the offender can give up at any time.

Ref comment in bold above I agree. I also appreciate and understand the limitations of Tazer. My suggestion was a practical one to further equip AGS members with additional protective equipment.

The fact is that arming of all members of AGS will not happen in my lifetime ( and i'm not old!)
Arming all gardai with Tazer could happen very quickly (costs aside). It is a suggestion that could be introduced. Arming all gardai with guns wont happen.

Issue some/most/all with Tazer. Guns for ordinary gardai on regular units would only ever follow the introduction of Tazer to regular units anyway.

In the context of this thread (from what i have read **i recognise this is NOT fact***) it is likely that the members exposed to this terrible situation could have subdued the offender using Tazer results in avoidance of the danger that followed and the loss of life.

Zambia · 03-02-2012 1:10pm

brinks_18476 wrote: »

Ref comment in bold above I agree. I also appreciate and understand the limitations of Tazer. My suggestion was a practical one to further equip AGS members with additional protective equipment.

It would of course be a step in the right direction but why get a little bit pregnant.

brinks_18476 wrote: »

The fact is that arming of all members of AGS will not happen in my lifetime ( and i'm not old!)
Arming all gardai with Tazer could happen very quickly (costs aside). It is a suggestion that could be introduced. Arming all gardai with guns wont happen.

Why not if you have the cash to buy Tazers a load of 40 Cal Glock's would not be that far a stretch. Quite possibly cheaper.

brinks_18476 wrote: »

Issue some/most/all with Tazer. Guns for ordinary gardai on regular units would only ever follow the introduction of Tazer to regular units anyway.

In the context of this thread (from what i have read **i recognise this is NOT fact***) it is likely that the members exposed to this terrible situation could have subdued the offender using Tazer results in avoidance of the danger that followed and the loss of life.

In the case yes one Garda could have deployed a Tazer. The scenario would be just as bad had the offender exited the vehicle before the Gardai came within tazer range. The scene in the film "The Guard" comes to mind.

Would you play a game of poker if your opponent got to use the ace and you did not.

Locust · 03-02-2012 4:13pm

MagicSean wrote: »

You can't really advocate arming gardai unless you are willing to support them when they use them and come up with acceptable rules of engagement too. Let's say there is a man with a knife who refuses to drop it. At present a Garda can spray him and use his baton. This would be an effective counter measure. Now let's add a pistol to his equipment. What equipment should now be used? Are we prepared for this man to be shot when previously he would have been subdued? When you look at the cases of gardai being prosecuted and sued for rough arrests I don't think the protection would be provided to allow gardai to use their firearm.

I'd back and support them to the hilt

Every scenario is different - If i thought there was no threat by the knife, i'd use lower force - e.g. spray him or call for the public order unit with shields - if he was coming towards me with the knife in a hostile manner or thought there was imminent danger i'd be happy to blow his head off. Theres nothing wrong with that - its him or you. Sure there would be an investigation but you're doing your job. Everything gets investigated thats police life.

I recall hearing about police officers who didn't shoot someone in a life threatening situation and they got some serious roasting for not firing as it could have cost them a colleague or member of the publics life.

How do you think other armed police forces - PSNI, French, German or American armed police operate?! You are fully covered to use lethal force if its legal necessary and proportionate. Police services that are armed are generally more professional as they have better training and discipline

Sierra Oscar · 03-02-2012 4:57pm

Someone who witnessed the entire event has given an interview to the Irish Independent.

I wonder if the Gardai were using TETRA? Looks like they were still reliant upon mobile phones - it was only by using the phone of the witness that they managed to call for assistance.

Witness to terrifying attack on gardai says brave officers deserve commendation

THE only witness to a dramatic gun attack on two gardai has revealed how the gunman took aim at the female officer as she collapsed on the road before she managed to escape

Shane O’Brien said he cannot believe that Sergeant Deborah Marsh and Garda Gerry Brassil escaped with their lives after a number of shots were fired at them by the man who had a shotgun and a rifle.

Mr O’Brien, from Newport, Co Tipperary, said he heard Gda Brassil roar at Anthony McMahon (44) not to pick up his loaded gun after the motorist was stopped on suspicion of drink-driving on Monday night.

Mr O’Brien took cover behind a pillar at the entrance to his cottage as McMahon took aim at Sgt Marsh and Gda Brassil.

Speaking exclusively to the Irish Independent, Mr O’Brien said he went outside his home after McMahon was signaled to stop his van.

“I saw some blue lights flashing outside. To be honest with you, I was nosy and went outside to investigate what was going on,” he said. He walked to the entrance of his drive.

“There is a pillar just outside my wall and I went out that far. I stood there. I saw the whole thing.

“I could see the lady garda at the front of the car. I could hear another male voice – I presume the male garda and he was saying: ‘Don’t go for the gun, don’t go for the gun’.” Gda Brassil wrestled with McMahon for control of the shotgun while Sgt Marsh pepper-sprayed him.

“I could see a bit of a scuffle. There was a struggle. There was a few shots – gunshots had gone off at this stage. One of guards grabbed one of the guns off him.”

After Sgt Marsh fell to the ground, Mr O’Brien witnessed the gunman take aim at her with another weapon – a rifle he also had in the car. “Whatever happened then, the lady guard fell down,” Mr O’Brien said.

“He grabbed another gun inside in the van. He was trying to shoot them. “I could see the gun coming out the window – he did go to shoot her.”

The two officers raced for their lives with Gda Brassil using the front of the patrol car for protection, while Sgt Marsh ran towards the frightened resident.

“She (Sgt Marsh) came running back up to me. She saw me here at the pillar – there was another shot or two. She hid down behind the pillar with me,” Mr O’Brien said.

Sgt Marsh had dropped her phone during the struggle with her assailant “She asked did I have a phone. So I ran in, I got my phone and I dialled 999 for her. She got through to the emergency response and she called for back-up.”

Mr O’Brien said Sgt Marsh bravely ran back onto the road to stop other cars from entering the scene. “We didn’t know what he was going to do. There was another shot and we didn’t know he was after shooting himself at this stage.

“She went back up there (to stop traffic) and I ran back in here. I didn’t know what to do. It was terrifying.

“I went down later on and the Emergency Response Unit were there, I could see a few bullet holes in the front windscreen of the van. He was obviously taking pot shots out the front of the van.”

Mr O’Brien said the two garda officers saved each others lives. “They wouldn’t be alive only for each other. They were brilliant in fairness.

“The female guard, after what happened her – the man put a gun out the window at her (and shot at her). I could hear it (the gunshot) and she had the presence of mind then to go up there and try and stop traffic coming down. . .” He said Sgt Marsh was thinking of other people when she ran up the road to stop traffic.

“God only knows what that lunatic was going to do. It was crazy stuff. To be honest with you after that, I came back in here and locked the door,” he said.

Mr O’Brien and his neighbours, William and Maureen Casey, said the two officers should be commended by An Garda Siochana for their actions this week.

Manic Moran · 03-02-2012 11:08pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

But what do you arm Gardai with? Where do you stop?
I cant see rank & file being given high powered weapons.
As mentioned the man had a long range weapon, if he wanted to take on armed Gardai he would simply out-range them.

Unless the two Gardai were Olympic class sprinters, I don't get the impression that they had managed to run sufficiently far from the individual that they were out of sidearm range. They certainly couldn't run fast enough to outrun the bullets, so running sufficiently far to be out of rifle range wouldn't be a reliable option.

In a nutshell, the two Gardai were no longer active particpants in the event. They had become passive bystanders with no ability to control the situation. Whether they lived or died had become a situation outside of their control and was now dependant upon the actions of an individual who may not have been entirely in control of his senses. Are you sure this is a situation you wish to have as a result of a policy decision?

But then again if he had ill intentions towards Gardai from the outset he would have done that anyway before the altercation started...

Really?

You probably want to view this video which is now used for training in the US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8-ycSkoYfc

And before anyone says that "this proves that arming the Gardai wouldn't have made any difference", it is to be pointed out that it is used for training as an example of a cop who failed to carry out his own training.

NTM

WilcoOut · 04-02-2012 7:17am

at the end of the day, our gardai are racing at high speed with blue lights and sirens to armed incidents

and all they have to tackle a man with a handgun, a shotgun, uzi or bazooka is a lump of iron bar and a potent steak sauce in a can

i spoke to an ozzy cop and he was gobsacked that Irish cops arnt armed he stated 'id feel naked on duty without it, come to think of it, i wouldnt go on duty without it!'

i told a NYPD guy bout our stabvests and he said whats a stab vest? i explained what it was and asked did he not have one. he said 'why would i need that, i have a glock!'

King Ludvig · 05-02-2012 6:12pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

And before anyone says that "this proves that arming the Gardai wouldn't have made any difference", it is to be pointed out that it is used for training as an example of a cop who failed to carry out his own training.

NTM

Out of interest what should the officer in the video have done differently?

brinks_18476 · 05-02-2012 6:19pm

King Ludvig wrote: »

Out of interest what should the officer in the video have done differently?

shot first

d3exile · 05-02-2012 6:25pm

brinks_18476 wrote: »

King Ludvig wrote: »

Out of interest what should the officer in the video have done differently?

shot first

He did shoot first, it's in the text info of the video

Manic Moran · 05-02-2012 9:22pm

Arguably 'shot earlier'.

Either way, he fired one shot out of the fifteen in his magazine, and waited to see what would happen. He failed to keep shooting until the threat was ended.

NTM

Locust · 05-02-2012 10:31pm

The Colm Hayes Show RTE2FM 19/01/12 - "Should every Garda on the street carry a gun?" 84% of public polled said Yes. Interesting!

Eru · 06-02-2012 12:24am

WilcoOut wrote: »

i told a NYPD guy bout our stabvests and he said whats a stab vest? i explained what it was and asked did he not have one. he said 'why would i need that, i have a glock!'

He was obviously some guy who happened to wear an NYPD t shirt cause the cops have been wearing vests for years longer than Gardai. Proof was in the offer:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/cwcwgbcwojsn/

crackcrack30 · 06-02-2012 10:03pm

Question,

I require garda backup/ support / presence (whatever) regularly to do my job and am always relieved & greatfull to see them on scene.

Is my life at risk due to the current lack of deterrant / firepower currently at the disposal of the guards when the SHTF?

tom traubert · 06-02-2012 11:14pm

Dude

Your life is at risk every time you poke your nose outside the door. Hell, even before you get that far the kettle or toaster could do for you....................

Nah, only jokin'. I suppose only the Gardai you meet regularly as you do this work could accurately answer your question. Ask them.

crackcrack30 · 07-02-2012 11:03am

Theres a seperate forum for those, i think ,

regards.....cc30

WilcoOut · 16-02-2012 6:34am

Eru wrote: »

He was obviously some guy who happened to wear an NYPD t shirt cause the cops have been wearing vests for years longer than Gardai. Proof was in the offer:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/cwcwgbcwojsn/

in fairness to him he was retired, maybe they didnt have em in his day........

cheers for the link dude

jonsnow · 24-03-2012 2:20am

d3exile wrote: »

It's not 1922 anymore.

90years on and the scrotes on the street are a hell of a lot tougher than the public seem to understand.

Yeah I mean in 1922 it wasn,t like there was a ongoing civil war where unarmed guards in a newly formed police force with no institutional memory were enforcing the law for a newly formed state against hardened veterans of the war of independence.

What the guards of that era had to contend with unarmed is almost unimaginable.

Corcioch · 27-03-2012 2:58pm

Whole thing is a total non arguement folks . . .

Did ye all miss the bit where the Dept of Justice has recommended withdrawing firearms from hundreds of Gardai to save money on Bullets and Paper Targets.

There is no way in hell they will sanction the millions of euro if would cost to train and arm all Gardaí

All they care about is €€€€€, not lives, or safety.

FGR · 27-03-2012 11:13pm

Corcioch wrote: »

There is no way in hell they will sanction the millions of euro if would cost to train and arm all Gardaí

Sadly several factors would have to come into play before the thought would be given serious consideration.

1) More people to be killed/injured through use of firearms by another

2) Uniform Gardaí to be present during an incident (or two) of 1) however are helpless to do anything about it.

3) Gardaí themselves to be shot.

4) A minister or a senior ranking official to be shot.

This would then require a Garda Commissioner with a lot of belief in his men and women so that s/he can stand up for them to the Minister and demand better training/equipment be issued in order to protect those on the streets.

That of course would then require a Minister who isn't afraid to stand up for what he believes in.

The Garda Inspectorate has done a hell of a lot of work for AGS and I'm grateful that they're there as no one else was willing to tell the senior ranks and Government that we're in the 21st Century. A 21st Century that requires equipment meant for modern day policing.

But alas; we're lucky that we got the Pepper Spray!

Zambia · 28-03-2012 5:27am

5 ) The rank and file want to be armed ?

Shooting Incident in Newport, Co Tipp

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