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Norway/GB electricity interconnector

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  • 05-01-2015 10:02pm
    #1
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭


    Today’s FT has a story about a new 700 km long undersea cable between Norway and GB, with a capacity of 1.4 GW. It will be used to import Norwegian hydroelectricity. It will save having to build two nuclear power plants and the capital cost (about GBP 1.5 B) will be a fraction of the cost of nuclear – especially when the long term costs of ownership and waste disposal are taking into account in the price per kWh. An exercise successive French governments have failed to do. It is no different to government debt, other than it is buried under the carpet. Governments can selectively use whatever accounting systems they want to – most of which bear no relationship to IFRS*.

    Most Norwegian rivers have two-way hydro – ie they can act as pumped storage sending water up when power is plentiful. Despite the tiny population and the large size of the country, most of the rail system is electrified and has been for decades. Most buildings including houses in Norway use electricity (typically heat pumps) for space and water heating. Modern air heat pumps can generate 4 to 5 times as much heat from the same quantity of electricity (compared with a conventional electric heater).

    It seems to me that Ireland needs to invest more in energy storage technologies. The country has a surplus of energy generation plant, and the few wind turbines dotted around the country can on a windy period generate half the electricity consumed in the country. Ireland has large offshore wave and some tidal energy, and very little is being done in the scheme of things to exploit same.

    These projects have high up-front costs, but when in place you end up with a low long term fixed cost base in a market where the selling price is inflating annually.

    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Financial_Reporting_Standards


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    #2
    18MonthsaSlave
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 574 ✭✭✭18MonthsaSlave


    if we had suitable Geography don't you think the UK would be exploiting the Irish west coast instead of building a powerline to Norway.


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nope, Norway is the third largest exporter of energy. 98% renewable.


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    #4
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    18MonthsaSlave wrote: »
    if we had suitable Geography don't you think the UK would be exploiting the Irish west coast instead of building a powerline to Norway.

    Which is why one suggested IRL should put resources into energy storage technologies. Everything from containerized batteries with 20,000 charge cycles to various types of pumped storage - even sea water.

    This needs to be matched with inter-connectors to mainland Europe. GB is the least well interconnected large country in Europe.

    As I write this post, Switzerland is transmitting 4.5 GW to Italy alone. Which is way more than the total connection capacity of GB to the rest of Europe. Switzerland has only 8 million population. Britain has 64 million.

    http://www.casc.eu/en
    http://www.swissgrid.ch/swissgrid/en/home.html


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    #5
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If we developed our offshore then we could piggyback the interconnector to Europe.


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    #6
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Impetus wrote: »
    Which is why one suggested IRL should put resources into energy storage technologies. Everything from containerized batteries with 20,000 charge cycles to various types of pumped storage - even sea water.

    Anyway like I keep saying it would cost about the same for the UK to connect to Norway or West coast of Ireland. All we can offer is wind + pumped storage. Norway can do that too.

    Norway can also offer lots of Hydro and links into the Scandinavian market we can't.


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    #7
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Anyway like I keep saying it would cost about the same for the UK to connect to Norway or West coast of Ireland. All we can offer is wind + pumped storage. Norway can do that too.

    Norway can also offer lots of Hydro and links into the Scandinavian market we can't.

    So? Ireland should give up, put its head in the sand, and write- off the 30 GW of free energy (wind, wave and tidal) it has within its borders? This is worth EUR 1.8 million an hour, at discounted wholesale prices. No hydrocarbon cost.

    We are not competing with Norway because the European energy marketplace is far larger than either NO or IE could support. And that market is running short of supply -- especially clean supply.

    Switzerland has a guarantee of origin and electricity labelling system to enable the consumer to know where they are spending their money. eg on tar sands or nuclear or say tidal at the other extreme. Countries like NO and IE should be promoting this to be adopted by EU directive.

    Promote choice.

    http://www.swissgrid.ch/swissgrid/en/home/experts/topics/goo.html

    PS: Nuclear costs about EUR 4 bn per GW to install, and probably the same again to deal with the waste over its half life etc. Choice - buy 30 GW of energy from Ireland, which is clean, or create your own energy from nuclear at a capital cost of EUR 120 billion + say 120 billion if they were forced to account for the long tail of nuclear waste disposal.


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    #8
    afatbollix
    Registered Users Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    Eh they tried to build a wind farm in the mid lands to supply the Uk market and there was uproar from the locals..

    'Them Brits can feck off if they think they are getting my power'


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Impetus wrote: »
    So? Ireland should give up, put its head in the sand, and write- off the 30 GW of free energy (wind, wave and tidal) it has within its borders?

    Nothing stopping us building our own interconnector.
    UK are running close to max. gen. at the moment. Norway can supply what we can only promise. Makes a lot more sense for them to connect to Norway they have the infrastructure already in place.


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    #10
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Sir Liamalot wrote: »
    Nothing stopping us building our own interconnector.
    UK are running close to max. gen. at the moment. Norway can supply what we can only promise. Makes a lot more sense for them to connect to Norway they have the infrastructure already in place.

    As far as I recall GB refused the last inter-conector proposal from IRL, which is a far shorter distance than NO-GB.

    It is no different to BMW and the 4 series. It does not stop Mercedes-Benz bring out the E Class Coupe. And so it goes on. The market for cars in Europe is far more limited than the market for energy. Carbon based energy is being replaced by electricity because it is cleaner and more efficent.

    The bureaucrats in the EU are engaging in Soviet era style tactics - forcing people to buy small screen TV sets and poor quality lighting to "save" energy. As a result one has to buy five or six lamps to replace the one or two one had previously, to light a single room. Only a moron society would put up with such bureaucratic terrorism. Negative benefit in terms of natural resource management.

    These bureaucrats get €9'000+ a month compensation and defined benefit pensions. Nobody voted for them. If somebody wants a 200cm tv screen let them buy it if they can afford same. And concentrate on cleaning up the energy supply for all.

    If GB can keep IRL out of its electricity market, and the EU has done nothing - what point the EU?

    Ireland has naively allowed GB to build its chains of characterless trash store chains all over the country. Shops that sell 90%+ non-Irish / non-Continental European merchandise. Shops that are trojan horses for rubbish from Asia, Britain and elsewhere. As a result, Irish cities and towns have become like British cities and towns and their boring "high streets". Mirror images of downmarketness. Un-interesting to tourists. Uninteresting to shop or live in.

    High time a stop was put to this one way street in energy, merchandise, transportation services etc.


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    #11
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Impetus wrote: »
    The bureaucrats in the EU are engaging in Soviet era style tactics - forcing people to buy small screen TV sets and poor quality lighting to "save" energy. As a result one has to buy five or six lamps to replace the one or two one had previously, to light a single room. Only a moron society would put up with such bureaucratic terrorism. Negative benefit in terms of natural resource management.
    Sorry to burst your bubble

    But that's down to the retailers. They used to sell 150W bulbs , but only sold CFL's that replaced 60W bulbs at best.

    Try to buy a 22W CFL in Ireland. They exist abroad, just no one sells them here.


    LED prices are finally at €1 a watt, for best price / special offer bulbs.

    For 99c retail you can have a 10W LED posted to your door
    http://www.buyincoins.com/item/17637.html
    http://www.buyincoins.com/item/17638.html
    just to give you an idea of how much more LED prices could fall


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    #12
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    afatbollix wrote: »
    Eh they tried to build a wind farm in the mid lands to supply the Uk market and there was uproar from the locals..

    'Them Brits can feck off if they think they are getting my power'

    It was the Brits that pulled out of that. The costs didn't make sense.Now the same shower behind that are trying to force all this cr%p on to the Irish grid that is already over loaded with intermittent and unreliable wind power(as highlighted by the ESB themselves in their recent submission to the governments green paper on energy). And yes the locals weren't too keen on living amongst a forest of pylons and giant wind turbines - what a surprise?? just as the people of North Mayo are none too keen on the MAREX project which will see hundreds of wind turbines and pylons festooning bogs and hillsides next to important greenways and tourist sites like the Ceide Fields and Ballycroy National Park.


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    #13
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Impetus wrote: »
    So? Ireland should give up, put its head in the sand, and write- off the 30 GW of free energy (wind, wave and tidal) it has within its borders? This is worth EUR 1.8 million an hour, at discounted wholesale prices. No hydrocarbon cost.

    .

    Free energy?? Funny how power bills continue to go up and up in Ireland despite all this "free" energy, against a back drop of falling oil and gas prices. The EU's retarded energy polices based on the flawed German model now sees energy costs in the EU far in excess of major competitors like the US etc.


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

    LED prices are finally at €1 a watt, for best price / special offer bulbs.

    The good ones aren't.

    Those to me are poor quality lighting.

    I'm still on the hunt for decent affordable LED's with CRI 95 and an R9 of 95.
    By affordable I mean slightly less than 3 times the cost of the equivalent tungsten.


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