CI and IVCA

buffalo · 10-06-2012 6:22pm

High Nellie wrote: »

I can't help grumping about this deal again. Can someone tell me why it's fair that IVCA members can turn up and sign on at CI events but not the other way around?:(

So you can respect your elders by letting them win more races.

edit: I've now actually read this thread... I'm glad there's another few years before I have to deal with all this.

Beasty · 10-06-2012 6:26pm

CI brought down the shutters on IVCA members originally and the IVCA continued to allow CI members to race

This year, as I understand it, there is mutual recognition of licences. However (for the first time, as I understand it), the IVCA has had to close to new racing members because of the numbers turning up to races. I am guessing (but do not know) that as a result they are not allowing non-IVCA members to race (it may be different for TTs)

High Nellie, have you direct experience of the IVCA not allowing CI members to race?

High Nellie · 10-06-2012 6:31pm

buffalo wrote: »

High Nellie wrote: »

I can't help grumping about this deal again. Can someone tell me why it's fair that IVCA members can turn up and sign on at CI events but not the other way around?:(

So you can respect your elders by letting them win more races.

The problem is that I am one of the ELDERS, but a member of The National Federation. I agree with Pablo above that it's not about politics but riding the bike. But this I can't do with me Elders peers in IVCA, even though they can compete with my federation?
Again, simple question - is this fair?

Beasty · 10-06-2012 6:42pm

High Nellie wrote: »

Again, simple question - is this fair?

About a fair as it was when the boot was on the other foot

If you want to guarantee racing in the IVCA sign up to them , in the same way I can only guarantee my place in the Swords League by being a member.

The restrictions introduced by the IVCA only kicked in part way through the season, and were entirely on safety grounds, so it seems entirely fair to me, as safety of riders is an overriding priority within the IVCA.

CI events outside the North don't seem to have limits on numbers signing up to races, so the question of limiting numbers by reference to the members of the specific organisation does not arise in the Republic

High Nellie · 10-06-2012 8:46pm

Beasty wrote: »

If you want to guarantee racing in the IVCA sign up to them

But, why does the same logic not apply the other way around?
Obviously you think that is fair so there is no point in arguing about it.

recedite · 10-06-2012 9:47pm

If IVCA can fill their races to the maximum safety limit on a pre-entry basis at the start of the year, then fair play to them. Its called "running things efficiently"and if they are getting the numbers then people obviously like it.

The only way for this to work now for CI licence holders is if the vets vote at the next AGM to introduce a new (cheaper) pre-entry for CI members that includes a race fee but does not include a needless insurance fee. Even then they would have to allow the IVCA members first preference if numbers looked like becoming oversubscribed.
Its great that CI have relented from refusing IVCA licence recognition, but its a bit much doing it after the start of the season and then pointing at IVCA as if they should reciprocate, while knowing full well that their arrangements have been fixed in advance of the season.

killalanerr · 10-06-2012 10:08pm

As a CI member i can just turn up and ride any CI race they run an so can IVCA members but as a CI member i cant do the same at IVCA events is that fair ?
This thing about numbers is a red herring what would the cross over be,maybe 20 on a good day and thats been optimistic

C3PO · 11-06-2012 7:18am

As it stands, the current arrangement has no practical benefits for CI members! It is clearly not a "fair" deal but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be changed.

RobFowl · 11-06-2012 9:30am

killalanerr wrote: »

As a CI member i can just turn up and ride any CI race they run an so can IVCA members but as a CI member i cant do the same at IVCA events is that fair ?
This thing about numbers is a red herring what would the cross over be,maybe 20 on a good day and thats been optimistic

I am a CI and an IVCA member
Effectively you block enter all the IVCA races in advvance, CI members are allowed to this but the umbers are closed due to safety since March.
I can also enter any CI races I've entered in advance.
It a little confusing but it not comparing like with like.

killalanerr · 11-06-2012 11:16am

RobFowl wrote: »

I am a CI and an IVCA member
Effectively you block enter all the IVCA races in advance, CI members are allowed to this but the numbers are closed due to safety since March.
I can also enter any CI races I've entered in advance.
It a little confusing but it not comparing like with like.

So the cute boys in IVCA have come up with a system where they have blocked CI members from entering their events unless they are also members of IVCA which is what CI were trying to achieve at the start of all this,some boyos for sure
I just want to ride my bike ill leave them to it but if CI stopped taken entry's form IVCA members i would fully understand their position

RobFowl · 11-06-2012 11:20am

I'm a full CI member but not a "full" IVCA member as I'm insured by CI (AFAIK).
Effectively the IVCA races are all pre entry, as are a lot of the Ulster ones these days!!
Anyway where would be be in Irish cycling if we didn't have a good split every now and again...

Beasty · 11-06-2012 12:01pm

If you have an IVCA racing licence, that comes with insurance (which has different terms than the CI insurance, possibly making it more generous overall)

So far High Nellie has not answered the question I put previously, as to whether he has any direct experience of being turned down for IVCA races

This season a number of the IVCA races have been changed from CPs to DMSs because of the numbers turning up. It may well be that in some races, particularly as the season progresses, there is scope to allow CI members to race. It's something to check with the IVCA race director/committee

In addition, the IVCA put on a lot of TTs. For all I kmow there may be absolutely no restriction on CI members who satisfy the age criteria participating. Again it's a question to ask the IVCA if anyone is interested

I, like a number of people, am a member of both organisations this year. Some people would have preferred a single licence, but by the time CI announced that IVCA members could race it was too late - they had already purchased both. Some may have chosen to do so anyway (as I did) - others may think it was "unfair" to expect them to purchase both

I think the number that actually race both IVCA and CI races is quite small - there are probably less than 200 who have participated in IVCA racing this year, and I know a very large proportion of those do not do open racing

Ultimately there is probably enough demand for CI clubs to put on vets races (particularly outside Leinster where virtually all the IVCA races take place). I know it's something that CI may be looking at, given the age profile of members. It's already started at a small level with the Masters (50+ A4s/Club Competition licence holders), but that's only really caught on in the North (with one notable exception;)). Maybe it is an area the clubs, in conjunction with CI, should look to support

C3PO · 11-06-2012 12:11pm

I agree Beasty - it would be great to see a Vets race category in CI races. Certainly I would do a lot more road racing if that was the case. Of course the problem that would arise then is that you would have a huge range of abilities within the Vets! XC racing has recently changed from "age categories" to "ability categories" for this reason ...... problems ..... problems!

morana · 11-06-2012 2:09pm

recedite wrote: »

Its great that CI have relented from refusing IVCA licence recognition, but its a bit much doing it after the start of the season and then pointing at IVCA as if they should reciprocate, while knowing full well that their arrangements have been fixed in advance of the season.

We are not pointing anything at the IVCA. We have a very good relationship. the agreement came in too late to allow the IVCA put in a guest system as described elsewhere but that may be in place next year.

My idea is to have a vets commission with a setup in each province running vets only races but that is counter to our ability grading structure but who knows it may come into existence

greenmat · 25-02-2013 10:01pm

Sorry for bringing up an old post but if I get a IVCA Licence this year will it allow me to enter CI open races and/or Swords League in 2013? Was considering getting a CI Club Competition licence and racing in the Swords league again but would like to try out the Vets also.

morana · 25-02-2013 10:15pm

greenmat wrote: »

Sorry for bringing up an old post but if I get a IVCA Licence this year will it allow me to enter CI open races and/or Swords League in 2013? Was considering getting a CI Club Competition licence and racing in the Swords league again but would like to try out the Vets also.

yes. If you are a CI member and want to do the vets races you need to join them. Unfortunately you cant just turn up for their races as a CI member.

killalanerr · 25-02-2013 11:44pm

this still bugs me. Can some body explain to me how this arangement is any good to a CI lic holder who wants to ride the odd vets race

morana · 25-02-2013 11:48pm

I queried if the facility to be extended to CI riders but they quoted the need for all riders to be registered to control race sizes and circumvent the issues that Swords faced last year.

if anybody would like to work on setting up a vets promotions group in any of the provinces I would be happy to help out. I raised it at board level and if we come with a proposal it will get serious consideration.

I would like a vets commission to oversee vets racing in the provinces run like the IVCA but I am running out of cycling energy!!!!!
if the proposal is robust enough funding would be available possibly for national vets league etc.

morana · 25-02-2013 11:58pm

killalanerr wrote: »

No i am one of your vets all ready .for the IVCA

you need to take their licence but not insurance. your CI insurance covers you

greenmat · 26-02-2013 12:25am

So just to be clear, I can get a vets licence with insurance, race the IVCA league and do the odd CI event/open race/swords league using Vet licence and insurance. Clear as mud.:)

Am a member of Swords CC, so know about league fee etc.

killalanerr · 26-02-2013 12:32am

ya greenmat but if you take out a CI lic you cant .but be carefull IVCA are full or nearly full so you may not be able to reg for the vets either hope that clears it up for ya

greenmat · 26-02-2013 12:36am

Ah sure it all depends on my dodgy knee anyway. Just looking at my options, might just stick with Swords league and get myself back in order.

Beasty · 26-02-2013 1:51am

IVCA racing licence applications must be in by 1 March - they are not processing racing applications received thereafter

wav1 · 26-02-2013 9:09am

morana wrote: »

I queried if the facility to be extended to CI riders but they quoted the need for all riders to be registered to control race sizes and circumvent the issues that Swords faced last year.

if anybody would like to work on setting up a vets promotions group in any of the provinces I would be happy to help out. I raised it at board level and if we come with a proposal it will get serious consideration.

I would like a vets commission to oversee vets racing in the provinces run like the IVCA but I am running out of cycling energy!!!!!
if the proposal is robust enough funding would be available possibly for national vets league etc.

Up in Ulster the masters over 50 racing in conjunction with open races seems to have worked really well and become very popular.To the best of my knowledge riders in these events only need to have a club competition licence to compete after a motion from Cycling Ulster went through at the agm in 2011.If this was to work in the south though I think they would have to be promoted at separate venus than the open races as the programme at open races is already very ''overcrowded'' to say the least.A good project for somebody though.

High Nellie · 26-02-2013 9:51am

killalanerr wrote: »

this still bugs me. Can some body explain to me how this arangement is any good to a CI lic holder who wants to ride the odd vets race

Here we go again .....

C3PO · 26-02-2013 10:06am

High Nellie wrote: »

Here we go again .....

Maybe so but he still has a fair point! Surely IVCA could allocate a certain number of places for CI licence holders in each of their races? It would seem like a reasonable quid pro quo?

High Nellie · 26-02-2013 10:07am

morana wrote: »

I queried if the facility to be extended to CI riders but they quoted the need for all riders to be registered to control race sizes and circumvent the issues that Swords faced last year.

if anybody would like to work on setting up a vets promotions group in any of the provinces I would be happy to help out. I raised it at board level and if we come with a proposal it will get serious consideration.

I would like a vets commission to oversee vets racing in the provinces run like the IVCA but I am running out of cycling energy!!!!!
if the proposal is robust enough funding would be available possibly for national vets league etc.

Yes, a separate Vets structure is probably not feasible in the provinces given that most guys running things have probably enough on their hands and there isn't a critical mass of Vets to produced enough riders and, more important, people to run events. It would be up to enthusiasts/clubs to run separate over-50 events. As said above, it's probably not feasible to tag them onto existing events.

However, the existing CI commissions could at least acknowledge Masters category by including them in national championships. I think the track commission ran a separate Masters track championships last year (?) - it might have had hiccups but it was the right thing to do.

The TT and Hill Climb Champs wouldn't need any additional event - just award the Masters Championships from the normal national championships competitions. There is a Vets Road-racing championships, but I'm not sure how this is vis-a-vis UCI-recognised Masters categories - I think the CI event applies after 35 (?) and it certainly doesn't cater for most of the recognised Masters categories - e.g. over-50s are not competitive as it is Cat1 standard (someone told me that last year the average speed of the Vets race was the same as the Senior race, excepts with a shorter distance - but I can't vouch on that, especially as the Senior race would have been driven by professionals mainly). Would it be be a big job to run a 'Masters' road-race Championships in combination with the 'Vets' championships.

morana · 26-02-2013 10:31am

wav1 wrote: »

Up in Ulster the masters over 50 racing in conjunction with open races seems to have worked really well and become very popular.To the best of my knowledge riders in these events only need to have a club competition licence to compete after a motion from Cycling Ulster went through at the agm in 2011.If this was to work in the south though I think they would have to be promoted at separate venus than the open races as the programme at open races is already very ''overcrowded'' to say the least.A good project for somebody though.

That would be the intention a few courses that could be used in rotation. an initial safety assessment that would be done once and used many times. I wouldnt want it mixed in with the open races. It would also only require a CC licence as it would be a akin to a club league.

High Nellie wrote: »

Yes, a separate Vets structure is probably not feasible in the provinces given that most guys running things have probably enough on their hands and there isn't a critical mass of Vets to produced enough riders and, more important, people to run events. It would be up to enthusiasts/clubs to run separate over-50 events. As said above, it's probably not feasible to tag them onto existing events.

However, the existing CI commissions could at least acknowledge Masters category by including them in national championships. I think the track commission ran a separate Masters track championships last year (?) - it might have had hiccups but it was the right thing to do.

The TT and Hill Climb Champs wouldn't need any additional event - just award the Masters Championships from the normal national championships competitions. There is a Vets Road-racing championships, but I'm not sure how this is vis-a-vis UCI-recognised Masters categories - I think the CI event applies after 35 (?) and it certainly doesn't cater for most of the recognised Masters categories - e.g. over-50s are not competitive as it is Cat1 standard (someone told me that last year the average speed of the Vets race was the same as the Senior race, excepts with a shorter distance - but I can't vouch on that, especially as the Senior race would have been driven by professionals mainly). Would it be be a big job to run a 'Masters' road-race Championships in combination with the 'Vets' championships.

I think a masters championship based on age is certainly do-able. The UCI dont recognise Vet as a category therefore the Vets champs has no standing in the UCI hence there is no points on offer for it.

I dont think there isnt enough riders to do the events but it would require a bit of management and you would need people to skip races to marshall.

But as I said if anybody feels we could move this forward I am happy to accommodate and become involved.

barney150 · 26-02-2013 11:51pm

I read this post last year and just wondering if there are any changes.

Hope you can confirm the latest arrangments for this year

I took out a IVCA licence this year.
Can I use this licence to ride a CI club league.?
Might also do an odd open CI race, whats the arrangement here and what grade category would you be put into.

Thanks

High Nellie · 27-02-2013 5:07pm

morana wrote: »

That would be the intention a few courses that could be used in rotation. an initial safety assessment that would be done once and used many times. I wouldnt want it mixed in with the open races. It would also only require a CC licence as it would be a akin to a club league.

I think a masters championship based on age is certainly do-able. The UCI dont recognise Vet as a category therefore the Vets champs has no standing in the UCI hence there is no points on offer for it.

I dont think there isnt enough riders to do the events but it would require a bit of management and you would need people to skip races to marshall.

But as I said if anybody feels we could move this forward I am happy to accommodate and become involved.

I think it would be worth suggesting to the club that will be hosting the Vets Championships to add on a couple of Masters categories, and for CI to award National Championships from these.

It should be attractive to the promoting clubs as there would be little extra organization or costs, but more income (these are usually on a circuit, so it would be the same circuit but with fewer laps as in most normal events - no extra marshals etc - just a couple of lead cars).

There probably aren't enough riders for all the recognised Masters categories and it wouldn't be feasible to run them anyway. So, in practice, it might look like the normal Vets Championships with, for the sake of argument:

Vets race over 4 laps (for the sake of argument) for Vets Championships (catering for all comers over 35 who want to have a go - this is a very high standard)
50-59 race over 3 laps with Championship awarded to the first 50-54 and 55-59 age group
Over 60s, over 2 laps...

Or it could be any similar formula. Some will argue that there mightn't be enough riders to justify it, but the same could be said for any 'minority' category and you have to start at some level, e.g. women category.

Of course it could be a problem for CI as they would be running no-recognized UCI category (Vets) and recognised-UCI categories (Masters) in the same event.

CI and IVCA

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