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Latvian Referendum

  • 19-02-2012 12:22pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

    And?

    Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

    From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

    From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

    A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???


«1345

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    I understand that these former soviet countries are trying to distance themselves from their past association within the USSR but punishing a significant portion of your population is not the way to go about it. If they are not careful they will have a seperatist movement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    You've got the same situation in many ex-soviet Republics, the sins of the Soviet fathers being visited on the Russian - speaking 'children'.

    Ukraine was not that far from civil war in 2004 because of the same kind of tensions - the Orange Revolution has ended now, of course and there's a kind of truce there.

    However, Latvia is in the EU. It has responsibilities not only to its own people but to its neighbours; including us.

    I understand that the overwhelming factor in sustaining the Russsophobia of the Latvian population is the resurgence of Russia as a geopolitical giant but the Latvians need to get over this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭blatantrereg


    Not surprised at all. Most Eastern Europeans really didn't like the Soviet Union. It's only been 20 years. And Russia is not exactly a delightful nation right now tbh. Gorbachev, whose policies were explicitly what allowed former Warsaw Pact countries to revolt - he's been blocked from forming a political party there. He's suggested that Putin and the like are trying to return the place to the worst times of the USSR.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    The Latvians shouldn't upset the big bear. But morally they shouldn't discriminate against their own citizens. The EU should formally object.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    born2bwild wrote: »
    So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

    And?

    Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

    From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

    From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

    A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???


    They voted for it. You didnt


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 Piglet1984


    I am Latvian and I voted against Russian as the 2nd language in Latvia.

    "This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship."

    In many countries, in order to apply for citizenship, one must be able to speak the country's lamguage. These non-latvian speaking people, who were brought in by the Soviets to russify the smaller Baltic nations, have been living in Latvia since the 60s (and their descendants) and they still haven't learned the basic Latvian. How is that even possible?! I really must question a certain nation's intelligence...

    1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian.
    Not quite true. The younger generation (bar those living in the capital and the Latgale region) i.e. those born in the 1980s and 1990s do not speak Russian.

    Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia
    Nobody has been forced to leave Latvia. Funny though, they will go to, say, Germany, and learn German but they won't learn Latvian.

    doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services.
    Did you know that there are bi-lingual schools in Latvia? These schools are state-funded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    Not surprised at all. Most Eastern Europeans really didn't like the Soviet Union. It's only been 20 years. And Russia is not exactly a delightful nation right now tbh. Gorbachev, whose policies were what explicitly allowed former Warsaw Pact countries to revolt - he's been blocked from forming a political party there. He's suggested that Putin and the like are trying to return the place to the worst times of the USSR.

    Russia is definitely not a democracy and it is definitely dangerous living anywhere near them.

    That does not justify refusing full citizenship to people just because they are not proficient in Latvian. I have met lots of Latvians on Aliens passports over here. Many of them are children and pensioners. The pensioners lived all of their lives in Latvia - worked, fought in wars (WW2, Afghanistan), lived ordinary lives - the change of government turned them into 'aliens'.

    If your family doesn't speak Latvian, if you are too old or too busy to learn it citizenship is denied in Latvia. That is scandalous and shameful.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    While I shouldnt give a serious issue like this the AH treatment does anyone else think theres something about the photo accompanying that news report that makes it look like a scene from Father Ted ?
    Gorbachev, whose policies were what explicitly allowed former Warsaw Pact countries to revolt

    IIRC Gorbachev's policies towards revolts in the Baltic states were -for a time at least somewhat less benign than was the case for the rest of the former Eastern bloc ?
    born2bwild wrote: »
    The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

    Lets not forget there is a certain other EU country whose constitution only affords the status of second language to the mother tounge of over 98% of its population. And where for quite a long time non-speakers of the first notional official language were denied educational qualifactions (even in entirely unrelated subjects) on leaving school.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,871 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    born2bwild wrote: »
    So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

    And?

    Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

    From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

    From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

    A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???

    I'd argue that the law is exclusionist rather than the language. If it were brought in here, people would rebel against the law, but not the language.

    Can you prove the "from the right" opinion? Again, even if you can, that's law and public opinoin, not the language.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,871 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    While I shouldnt give a serious issue like this the AH treatment does anyone else think theres something about the photo accompanying that news report that makes it look like a scene from Father Ted ?

    I was trying to work out what bloody episode it was from!

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭Sonnenblumen


    born2bwild wrote: »
    So, the Latvians rejected Russian as a second official language.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0219/latvia.html

    And?

    Whichever way you look at this I think they were wrong:

    From the left: This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship. 1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian. The situation is akin to Switzerland deciding that its French speakers or Italian speakers are not entitled to full citizenship.

    From the right: Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia on Aliens Passports because doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services. They often end up here working in low paid jobs or sitting on the dole.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that foreigners are welcome here - all of them (if they're willing to work) - I threw the argument from the right in because I think it illustrates not only how this decision is vindictive and unjust but also how thoroughly irresponsible it is for a member state of the EU to pass laws like this.

    A santīms/копейк for your thoughts???

    You can keep it - more proof of once a red always a red.:mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Pacifist Pigeon


    Where's Latvia again?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    Piglet1984 wrote: »
    I am Latvian and I voted against Russian as the 2nd language in Latvia.

    "This is unfair and unjust because those who do not have proficiency in Latvian are not given full Latvian citizenship."

    In many countries, in order to apply for citizenship, one must be able to speak the country's lamguage. These non-latvian speaking people, who were brought in by the Soviets to russify the smaller Baltic nations, have been living in Latvia since the 60s (and their descendants) and they still haven't learned the basic Latvian. How is that even possible?! I really must question a certain nation's intelligence...

    1/3 of the population is Russian while almost everyone speaks Russian.
    Not quite true. The younger generation (bar those living in the capital and the Latgale region) i.e. those born in the 1980s and 1990s do not speak Russian.

    Many Russian speakers have had to leave Latvia
    Nobody has been forced to leave Latvia. Funny though, they will go to, say, Germany, and learn German but they won't learn Latvian.

    doors are shut in their faces in employment, education, services.
    Did you know that there are bi-lingual schools in Latvia? These schools are state-funded.

    Your points:

    1. Russian speakers living in Latvia did not learn Latvian because it was not necessary - Russian was enough to live your life.

    Just because many countries require people to speak a language to become citizens does not mean that requirement is morally right. People who don't learn one language (and I know lots of immigrants to this country who have not learnt English properly because, they do not have the time or ability) cannot be denied citizenship. I give you the example of Switzerland again: German/Swiss dominates. Why not deny citizenship to the French/Italian speakers?

    You speak of these people as being 'brought in to Russify the smaller states'. As you know, everyone in the Soviet Union did what they were told - they had no choice. You went where you were sent.

    As for intelligence? Well, I guess if that was a requirement for citizenship I would not have a passport.

    2. Honestly I have met many, many Latvians; in work and outside work. I have only met 2 Latvian speakers the rest (including young children) speak Russian.

    3. If you don't learn German you can't have a proper life in Germany. Until very recently if you didn't learn Latvian you could still have a proper life in Latvia. That was certainly bad for Latvia - I'm not going to claim that the Soviet Union was a good thing for the Latvian language. The point remains, though, and you have not addressed it as a people, there are 2 hundred thousand Russian speakers in your country. You are denying those who speak only that language full citizenship for no better reason than you resent the Soviets.

    4. Of course nobody is forced to leave Latvia. The point is that things are made difficult for people just because of the language that they speak and they leave. Next thing they're arriving here without a word of English with an 'Aliens passport' in their hand. I met one old man (60) in the immigration office who was too old to work, too old to learn a new language, too old to be treated like a second-class citizen.

    As a country you need to stop punishing your own people for what the Soviets did to you and them.

    5. I have done some research into bi-lingual educational policies in different parts of the world and none of the post-soviet Republics rates very highly in this area. The leaders in this area are Canada, US, the Sumi regions of Scandinavia, Australia.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    I'd argue that the law is exclusionist rather than the language. If it were brought in here, people would rebel against the law, but not the language.

    Can you prove the "from the right" opinion? Again, even if you can, that's law and public opinoin, not the language.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the language being exclusionist.

    At any rate I'm criticising the Latvians for introducing this law. I would make the same argument if the Latvian was not recognised as an official lanaguge.

    Think about the fuss we kicked up when the EU forgot to recognise Irish as an official language! And this was for a language that almost nobody speaks on a day to day basis.

    In contrast, Russian is spoken every day in Latvia but it is not recognised alongside Lativian. Why? because the Latvians want a large part their population to have second-class citizenship in order to give the Russians the two fingers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    You can keep it - more proof of once a red always a red.:mad:

    Yup - Shelbourne kick off their season at home to Sligo Rovers on Friday 2nd March.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    born2bwild wrote: »
    As a country you need to stop punishing your own people for what the Soviets did to you and them.

    Did Stalin not originally try to justify the Soviet annexation of the Baltic states by holding virtually the entire population of said states responsible for the fact that some of them may have collaborated with the Germans during the Nazi invasion of the USSR ?

    Seemingly the practice of holding entire populations responsible for past misdeeds which most of them had little or no hand act or part in is still fashionable in that part of the world :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    Quick question for any Latvians on here:

    The referendum was defeated 76-24.

    Were the second-class citizens allowed to vote?




  • One way to look at is to compare Latvia with Ireland of about 250 years ago and the referendum was to ask if English be the second official language then.

    OK I know all those in power spoke English but the same was probably true in Latvia during the Soviet era, as in all those in power spoke Russian.

    Latvia can retain Latvian as the principal language whereas Ireland effectively lost Irish a couple of centuries ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭fando


    born2bwild wrote: »
    because the Latvians want a large part their population to have second-class citizenship in order to give the Russians the two fingers.

    Maybe they did it to protect their national identity for the generations to come.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    fando wrote: »
    Maybe they did it to protect their national identity for the generations to come.

    I think it's wrong to protect your identity by trying to erase the identity of 2 hundred thousand people.

    They would have a fairer, happier, stronger society if they made the Russian speakers feel at home.

    By the way, I found the answer to last question:

    The 290,660 'non-citizens' did not have a vote.

    The electorate was 1.09 million.

    How can they get away with this?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    One way to look at is to compare Latvia with Ireland of about 250 years ago and the referendum was to ask if English be the second official language then.

    OK I know all those in power spoke English but the same was probably true in Latvia during the Soviet era, as in all those in power spoke Russian.

    Latvia can retain Latvian as the principal language whereas Ireland effectively lost Irish a couple of centuries ago.

    The analogy doesn't work. At independence there were about 2million Latvians. Of these, 715, 000 were immediately declared 'non-citizens'.

    The fact is that Russian was spoken every day by people who spoke Latvian, Ukrainian, Russian, Kazakh, German etc etc at home.

    Nearly half the population were immediately told, in clear language, "you are not wanted here!".

    That was and remains wrong, wrong, wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭Sonnenblumen


    born2bwild wrote: »
    Yup - Shelbourne kick off their season at home to Sligo Rovers on Friday 2nd March.

    Yeah but don't bother turning up if you're hoping to see any homegrown nazi persecutor puppets play.

    Oh I forgot, that's in the past, komm komrad, vee must clean and prepare now for our new vuture.:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭fando


    born2bwild wrote: »
    The fact is that Russian was spoken every day by people who spoke Latvian, Ukrainian, Russian, Kazakh, German etc etc at home.

    It's a logical step for them, to try to shift focus from Russian to Latvian language; if they don't want Latvian become what Irish language is in Ireland today.

    Although, the way its done its questionable, I agree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Latvia can retain Latvian as the principal language whereas Ireland effectively lost Irish a couple of centuries ago.
    Funny how its use is increasing so.

    Russia tried to colonise Latvia, Latvia won, now the Latvians are trying to rid their country of its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influences. Fair play to them I say and good luck with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    fando wrote: »
    It's a logical step for them, to try to shift focus from Russian to Latvian language; if they don't want Latvian become what Irish language is in Ireland today.

    How would that happen when the ratio of Latvian speakers to non latvian speakers is seemingly 1.09 million:290,660 :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭fando


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    How would that happen when the ratio of Latvian speakers to non latvian speakers is seemingly 1.09 million:290,660 :confused:

    How was that possible in Ireland?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    Funny how its use is increasing so.

    Russia tried to colonise Latvia, Latvia won, now the Latvians are trying to rid their country of its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influences. Fair play to them I say and good luck with it.

    ^^^^
    This.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭born2bwild


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    Funny how its use is increasing so.

    Russia tried to colonise Latvia, Latvia won, now the Latvians are trying to rid their country of its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influences. Fair play to them I say and good luck with it.

    The Soviet Union, an oppressive and brutal empire, colonised Latvia for half a century.

    Latvia didn't 'win'; the Soviet Union collapsed and Latvia got rid of "its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influence[]" in 1991.

    The struggle you describe ended over two decades ago.

    One of Latvia's first acts as an independent state was to disenfranchise nearly half of its population - because those people didn't have proficiency in Latvian.

    The 'non-citizens' are just ordinary men, women and children.

    Latvia had a chance this week to do the right thing. They did the wrong thing.

    Shame on them, I say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 Piglet1984


    born2bwild wrote: »
    Quick question for any Latvians on here:

    The referendum was defeated 76-24.

    Were the second-class citizens allowed to vote?

    As a citizen of Latvia I cannot vote in any Irish referendums, so obviously the answer is no.

    Also, please stop with this non-sense of 2nd class citizens.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    born2bwild wrote: »
    Latvia didn't 'win'; the Soviet Union collapsed and Latvia got rid of "its unwelcome imperialistic foreign influence[]" in 1991.
    If your flag is no longer flying over the state buildings, you lost.

    It beats me how these imperialistic colonisers, men who come with the gun and fire, always seem to feel they are owed special treatment after they are evicted. To put it another way, if Russia hadn't invaded in the first place Russians wouldn't now find themselves in this position.

    So the moral of the story is don't invade other countries really. Simples.


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