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Interesting love interests which are ditched in favour of conventional ones

  • 01-02-2012 7:47pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭


    This may not be a topic for this forum specifically, but the two examples off the top of my head are in films/tv films so here goes. Basically in tv-film adaptation of Jason and the Argonauts there was this female who was an archer and far more interesting as a character than the conventional princess who had the personality of cardboard and who Jason? was made pre-destined to fall in love with even though the chemistry was more evident with the female archer. Now last time I saw this was in 2001 so I may be remembering things incorrectly but that was the overall impression I got.

    Secondly Eoweyn? shield maiden of Rohan. I remember reading the LOTR books and thinking she was a really cool character but for frame of reference I'll just focus on the Two Towers which is a faithful enough adaptation. She was x1000000000 better as a character than the elven bird (Arwyn?) that Aragorn is again almost pre-destined by the logic of the plot to marry. Yet Eowyn gets brushed aside.

    Even in Tron, Tron is the dull guy, Jeff Bridges should have got the girl in the computer world.

    I notice this time and time again in films/tv where the unconventional secondary love interest is unsuccessful in their aims and the conventional/boring counterpart gets the girl/dude/whatever. What is the reason for this.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Precious1


    I don't know about those movies, but I did notice that in the film "The Artist" The male protagonist has a dour wife, but he is complicit in this and is particularly cruel to her in one scene when he could have given comfort. However, in the end, he and the blithe female protagonist do get together.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    Interesting, I definately think there a lot of unspoken values in films, things which aren't said because the writers aren't aware of them but just take them as givens. For example Gollum in LOTR gets his ass kicked around a lot even when he's trying to be good, what is all that about? Is it something ubersmench type of philosophy at work, that the weak deserve to be beaten up for being weak? I know that he's murdered some other hobbit in the past because of his addiction and that this is a bad thing but Gollum's existence is one of misery and endless punishment, how is he meant to redeem himself in the face of constant perpetual antagonism rather than going to other way and plotting to kill Frodo and Sam. Or Top Gun being a gay romance story, especially when you look at the beach volleyball scene. Anyway to relate this back to the thread at hand, what are the unspoken values whereby an interesting romance interest is displaced in favour of the conventional prince or princess?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,667 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    I think the secondary love interest tends be more appealing/interesting for the very reason that they are secondary. Their relationship with the protagonist is not meant to be, which frees up the writer to create a very different, perhaps darker, more haunted character than the main love interest. In most cases the secondary love interest is, one way or the other, doomed.

    So in the case of LOTR, Eowyn is more interesting than Arwen because Tolkien knew she wasn't going to end up Aragorn and wrote her differently (better?) as a result. I also suspect he originally planned to kill her off at the end but chickened out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭BunShopVoyeur


    That young guy isn't Tron.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    That young guy isn't Tron.

    Tron 1982, "He fights for the users!"


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭BunShopVoyeur


    Tron 1982, "I fight for the users!"

    :o I apologise profusely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭nermal15


    Pretty in Pink, obvious example. Duckie was way more interesting than Blaine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    I think the secondary love interest tends be more appealing/interesting for the very reason that they are secondary. Their relationship with the protagonist is not meant to be, which frees up the writer to create a very different, perhaps darker, more haunted character than the main love interest. In most cases the secondary love interest is, one way or the other, doomed.

    So in the case of LOTR, Eowyn is more interesting than Arwen because Tolkien knew she wasn't going to end up Aragorn and wrote her differently (better?) as a result. I also suspect he originally planned to kill her off at the end but chickened out.

    I don't think its necessary to doom them, for example Eowyn is interesting to begin with. I guess Aragorn ending up with Arwen makes Eowyn even more interesting because you kinda scratch you head thinking how can that be?! They could just make the primary interest interesting. For example in Arwen's case she fulfills all the standard conventions of feminity, she's demure, beautiful whatever but because she's basically the perfect wife, she's boring and one dimensional.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    :o I apologise profusely.

    No need, see below



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 323 ✭✭Underdraft


    Lord of the Rings. Sam hooks up with Rosie Cotton (when it's clear that he and Frodo were meant to be together).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 38,921 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    For example Gollum in LOTR gets his ass kicked around a lot even when he's trying to be good, what is all that about? Is it something ubersmench type of philosophy at work, that the weak deserve to be beaten up for being weak? I know that he's murdered some other hobbit in the past because of his addiction and that this is a bad thing but Gollum's existence is one of misery and endless punishment, how is he meant to redeem himself in the face of constant perpetual antagonism rather than going to other way and plotting to kill Frodo and Sam.
    The was a pretty evil character. He killed his fried in cold blood long before he became Gollum, or was "addicted". He tried to kill Bilbo also.
    He tried to help Frodo at one point. But a large part of this was because if Frodo failed, he lost the ring. Most of the time he is waiting to get it back, or even leading them to trouble.

    Gollum was lost, he couldn't be redeemed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,065 ✭✭✭Tipsy McSwagger


    Arwen gave up immortality for Aragorn so I think she wins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    Starship Troopers.

    Rico should've wound up with Dizzy instead of dull Denise Richards who dumped him for her career. Poor Dizzy, she had it hard.

    Would you like to know more? :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 323 ✭✭Underdraft


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    Starship Troopers.

    Rico should've wound up with Dizzy instead of dull Denise Richards who dumped him for her career. Poor Dizzy, she had it hard.

    Would you like to know more? :pac:
    He did end up with her (albeit she is killed before the end but I reckon he would have stayed with her had she survived).
    Did you watch all of the movie? :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    Starship Troopers.

    Rico should've wound up with Dizzy instead of dull Denise Richards who dumped him for her career. Poor Dizzy, she had it hard.

    Would you like to know more? :pac:

    Yes, this is an excellent point. Dizzy had more of a quirky character than Denise Richards who just conformed to all the conventions of society expects a woman to be. However Denise Richards was better looking but not so much that Dizzy couldn't win out with her personality. The same applies to Arwen and Eowyn. However I must note that Gollum does get an exceptionally hard time in the film, he gets routinely beaten up, strangled, insulted on a near consistent basis even when he is helping them. Afaik gollum was already transformed when he met Bilbo and he killed his friend under the power of the ring. I think Frodo almost killed Sam for the same reason too. I'm not saying Gollum isn't a murderer and shouldn't pay for it but sweet jebus he's get unduly punished for most of the Two Towers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    Underdraft wrote: »
    He did end up with her (albeit she is killed before the end but I reckon he would have stayed with her had she survived).
    Did you watch all of the movie? :confused:

    I have never seen Starship Troopers and thus I'm just taking a complete wild stab at the story and names of the characters. Of course I saw it, by "wound up with Dizzy" I don't mean by just shagging her, I meant by the end it should've been her that hung around, not Richards.

    Her and Dizzy should've had their fates switched. There was a scene recorded where they kiss after Richards is rescued, that would've made her even more unlikeable and him being completely pussy-whipped.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,667 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    I don't think its necessary to doom them, for example Eowyn is interesting to begin with. I guess Aragorn ending up with Arwen makes Eowyn even more interesting because you kinda scratch you head thinking how can that be?! They could just make the primary interest interesting. For example in Arwen's case she fulfills all the standard conventions of feminity, she's demure, beautiful whatever but because she's basically the perfect wife, she's boring and one dimensional.

    Yeah, but it's because she is the primary love interest and is destined to be with Aragorn that makes her boring to a large extent. Starship Troopers is a good example of this as well.

    Love interests are always more appealing when their love for the protagonist is not meant to be. That the primary love interest tends to be conventional is a by-product of the fact that they are designed to be the primary love interest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭OldeCinemaSoz


    Sunny should've been Harry's wife...

    "What does a girl have to to go to bed with you?"
    "Try knocking on the door?"

    ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭Apolloyon


    Perhaps a bit off topic. But I've only seen one instance when this is subverted. In the move 'The Mask', because we're so used to romantic comedy conventions, we expect Tina (Cameron Diaz) the gangster's moll to be the false romantic lead and for Stanley (Jim Carrey) to end up with Peggy (Amy Yasbeck) the Newspaper reporter. Instead,
    Peggy betrays him and he ends up with the 'bad girl' Tina and this in fact a much more satisfactory ending!
    If only more films 'mixed it up' a bit. We'd get better movies!


  • Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭SVG


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    Starship Troopers.

    Rico should've wound up with Dizzy instead of dull Denise Richards who dumped him for her career.

    Wasn't Starship Troopers just making fun of this convention though? All the cliches were pushed to ridiculous levels while maintaining a straight face. Rico had to end up with Denise Richards because that's how these things go. Their relationship is so hollow. I love it!

    Rico + Ibanez forever!


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 9,081 Mod ✭✭✭✭ziedth


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    Would you like to know more? :pac:

    I got a genuine belly laugh out of that, thank you. Good example too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    Yeah, but it's because she is the primary love interest and is destined to be with Aragorn that makes her boring to a large extent. Starship Troopers is a good example of this as well.

    Love interests are always more appealing when their love for the protagonist is not meant to be. That the primary love interest tends to be conventional is a by-product of the fact that they are designed to be the primary love interest.

    Ok, so the problem I have with this is that the primary love interest has to conventional. Considering writers like Tolkien were unconventional (at least in their own personal lives, and I don't mean in the obvious countercultural sense but in the sense that if you read up on their political/philosophical positions they ran contrary to recieved wisdom) I'm surprised they pandered to the dictates of the mainstream/society as to what constituted an appropriate female love interest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    SVG wrote: »
    Wasn't Starship Troopers just making fun of this convention though? All the cliches were pushed to ridiculous levels while maintaining a straight face. Rico had to end up with Denise Richards because that's how these things go. Their relationship is so hollow. I love it!

    Rico + Ibanez forever!

    Yeah, that was the genius of Starship Troopers. Everything about that film was full of win.


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭OldeCinemaSoz


    Nancy Allen should've ended up with
    the nerd in DRESSED TO KILL but ended
    up marrying director Brian DePalma instead?!?!

    :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    I always thought she was a good match for Robocop


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,031 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    The ending of Scott Pilgrim always bothered me, which is weird considering the comics got it dead-on comparatively. Ramona was a manipulative, dull woman in the film. Knives was a lively, charismatic character who was far more appealing, especially once she stopped being a stalking psycho.

    That the film teased a natural Knives reunion before crapping out wit a Ramona one instead was a sour end to a disappointing movie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭WatchWolf


    The ending of Scott Pilgrim always bothered me, which is weird considering the comics got it dead-on comparatively. Ramona was a manipulative, dull woman in the film. Knives was a lively, charismatic character who was far more appealing, especially once she stopped being a stalking psycho.

    That the film teased a natural Knives reunion before crapping out wit a Ramona one instead was a sour end to a disappointing movie.

    You should check out the Alternative ending.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,137 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The ending of Scott Pilgrim always bothered me, which is weird considering the comics got it dead-on comparatively. Ramona was a manipulative, dull woman in the film. Knives was a lively, charismatic character who was far more appealing, especially once she stopped being a stalking psycho.

    That the film teased a natural Knives reunion before crapping out wit a Ramona one instead was a sour end to a disappointing movie.

    How was she manipulative? I mean, if anything, Knives going out with Young Neil and trying to dress like Ramona was surely more manipulative than anything Ramona did?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    The ending of Scott Pilgrim always bothered me, which is weird considering the comics got it dead-on comparatively. Ramona was a manipulative, dull woman in the film. Knives was a lively, charismatic character who was far more appealing, especially once she stopped being a stalking psycho.

    That the film teased a natural Knives reunion before crapping out wit a Ramona one instead was a sour end to a disappointing movie.

    Yes! Excellent example, Ramona was a complete bitch, pretentious, stuck up, self absorbed and as you say completely dull beneath the affections of "alternative." Just another conformist albeit an "alt. conformist" who are no different from mainstream conformists. Knives by contrast was far more interesting as a character and not nearly as dislikeable. She was in fact the only character who wasn't aloof, arrogant, pretentious or obnoxious but then this was a film about hipsters.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,031 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Penn wrote: »
    How was she manipulative? I mean, if anything, Knives going out with Young Neil and trying to dress like Ramona was surely more manipulative than anything Ramona did?

    I recall her taking the piss relationship wise throughout the film. I haven't seen it since it was out in the cinema, mind, so I don't remember exact details. Manipulative or not, she was still dull as ****.

    And yeah, they tried their hardest to make Knives crazy. But she had the most interesting character arc in the whole film, and by the end I was really rooting for her as a character in spite of her 'rough patch' in Act 2.


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