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Must we Irish say "mom"?

  • 25-03-2013 4:20pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭


    I am not at all pleased by the recent upsurge in the use of "mom" instead of "mum" in the Irish media.

    This seems to mark another milestone in the transformation of Hiberno-English into mid-atlantic generic TV English.

    Even if it has caught on among the populace, it does not follow that the media (such as RTE) should amplify or legitimise its use.

    I am usually fairly flexible about how English is used, but in this case I would be sympathetic to the idea of asking all media outlets to discourage or better still ban the use of "mom" in an Irish context.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,373 ✭✭✭im invisible


    ma, wheres me dinner?


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ClashCityRocker


    I am not at all pleased by the recent upsurge in the use of "mom" instead of "mum" in the Irish media.

    The correct term is, of course, "mammy" :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,195 ✭✭✭maximoose


    Any examples of it in the media?

    Honestly don't think I've ever heard any Irish person say either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    Oh God yes, I have heard it on the Late late show and in a number of TV adverts. Listen out for a day or 2 and I will be very surprised if you don't come across it at least once.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I am not at all pleased by the recent upsurge in the use of "mom" instead of "mum" in the Irish media.

    This seems to mark another milestone in the transformation of Hiberno-English into mid-atlantic generic TV English.

    Even if it has caught on among the populace, it does not follow that the media (such as RTE) should amplify or legitimise its use.

    I am usually fairly flexible about how English is used, but in this case I would be sympathetic to the idea of asking all media outlets to discourage or better still ban the use of "mom" in an Irish context.
    Mum, mummy = Dublin 4/SCD
    Mom = usa?
    Ma, Mam, Mammy = Hiberno-english


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Oh but we must say Mummy!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭Sofaspud


    I'd be inclined to think of "Mum" as being more English / UK based, and "Mom" being more understandable due to the influence of US tv. "Mam", "Ma" seem to be the natual Irish way of saying it, for me. (I've always said Ma & Da)

    From my understanding, the US-based "Mom" comes from the Irish "a Mhamaí" so is a more Irish-language based way of saying it, adopted by the US due to the influx of Irish immigrants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    I don't see any particular value in trying to force a particular use of language upon the populace. Surely that kind of thing went out of vogue in the 1800s?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    OP

    Face it you is getting old as the youngsters are saying things which are annoying


  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,703 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    I don't see any particular value in trying to force a particular use of language upon the populace. Surely that kind of thing went out of vogue in the 1800s?
    Surely you could make some exceptions:
    OP

    Face it you is getting old as the youngsters are saying things which are annoying



    Anyway, it's "mum" to me but I don't really care how other people refer to their mothers, once it's respectful.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    People in the West of Ireland always said Mom more than people in the east - a simple transliteration of the Irish into English. In the east people said Ma or Mammy, except for those from an English background. But in the 1960s or so Mummy started creeping over through English TV and established itself firmly in the middle classes and their acolytes, who felt it was too proletarian to say Mammy or Ma, and regarded Mom as American.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    Surely you could make some exceptions:




    Anyway, it's "mum" to me but I don't really care how other people refer to their mothers, once it's respectful.
    I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but no, I wouldn't.

    The things that you might want to change, for example derogatory terms fag, cúnt etc aren't all that amenable to the kind of social engineering that the OP is talking about. They're not used in the media by and large so a ban would be redundant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 750 ✭✭✭playedalive


    Sofaspud wrote: »
    From my understanding, the US-based "Mom" comes from the Irish "a Mhamaí" so is a more Irish-language based way of saying it, adopted by the US due to the influx of Irish immigrants.

    That's an interesting point. It could be that Mom came from the Irish 'a mhamaí'. Especially since you could compare to how Americans developed the greeting 'so long' from 'slán'. Maybe an argument could be made than the Irish 'a' vowel can be adapted to the U.S. 'o' vowel sound*.


    *or maybe I'm just being too much of a language nerd :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Airplane.


    GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR>

    tac


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    tac foley wrote: »
    Airplane.


    GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR>

    tac

    Aeroplane is a lost cause, I'm afraid, charmingly chocolatey though the spelling is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,912 ✭✭✭✭Eeden


    My kids call me Mom, but that's probably because I call my mother Mom (sometimes Ma); that's probably because I was brought up in the USA.

    I don't get why people get so prescriptive about accents, influences on language, etc. I know I have one of those "horrible" Irish-American accents but I am not putting it on or being affected. It's just the way I speak and if I tried to change it, THAT would be unnatural.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    If you are brought up in the USA then that is a special case and I would not have an issue.

    I do however think it is a pity that the speech of Irish-born people is becoming so Americanised.


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭Raic


    The "mom" pronunciation is actually more traditional in Ireland than "mam", because it is like how the Irish word "mam" is pronounced. So, yes, some people may have it as a U.S. influence (which may originally be an Irish influence as some in this thread are arguing), but many (particularly) rural people still use the "mom" pronunciation as it is actually closer to the Irish.

    To be perfectly honest if more people knew this there wouldn't be so much complaining and this thread wouldn't have happened.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,152 ✭✭✭Rented Mule




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    "To be perfectly honest if more people knew this there wouldn't be so much complaining and this thread wouldn't have happened. "

    I do not agree. I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.

    We are developing a hideous mid-atlantic way of speaking which suggests to me a national inferiority complex. Another example is the use of "man" in expressions such as "Man, I'm tired" where we would previously have said "God, I'm tired" or "jayzus I'm tired." It is not a religious thing. It is pure Americanisation.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭Raic


    "To be perfectly honest if more people knew this there wouldn't be so much complaining and this thread wouldn't have happened. "

    I do not agree. I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.

    We are developing a hideous mid-atlantic way of speaking which suggests to me a national inferiority complex. Another example is the use of "man" in expressions such as "Man, I'm tired" where we would previously have said "God, I'm tired" or "jayzus I'm tired." It is not a religious thing. It is pure Americanisation.
    Well, the use of "mom" is defensible, at least, for the reasons I gave. That is, it is actually more traditional in Ireland than "mam".

    Moving on to your other points: whether you like it or not the country is moving in this direction, I'm afraid. However, I would say it is due to the massive media influence of the U.S. rather than some sort of inferiority complex. If it's a matter of there being a nationwide inferiority complex then one could say we must have an inferiority complex for speaking English rather than our "traditional" language?

    Languages change and evolve and dialects can and do die out; it's nothing new. For example, a couple of hundred years ago the majority of accents in England were rhotic and non-rhoticity was considered to be a working class "affliction", yet now most of the accents are non-rhotic including Received Pronunciation. This idea would have horrified the upper classes 250 years ago, no doubt.

    The point is, whether you want it or not the English language is going to change, and due to the overwhelming media influence of America I don't think it will be long before Hiberno-English is entirely eclipsed. Whether or not this is lamentable is debatable, but I believe it's unavoidable. Regardless, "mom" isn't a fair example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    Then why, Raic, are the English, which also gets this massive US media influence, not also developing mid-Atlantic accents and pronounciations?

    Yes they do let in some Americanisms (and have done for a century) but they are a long way from talking like Yanks. I'm not sure that is true of us.

    Could it be, at least in part, because a century of Gaelicist propaganda has stripped us of what should be a deserved and legitimate pride in our Hiberno-English?


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭Raic


    Then why, Raic, are the English, which also gets this massive US media influence, not also developing mid-Atlantic accents and pronounciations?

    Yes they do let in some Americanisms (and have done for a century) but they are a long way from talking like Yanks. I'm not sure that is true of us.

    Could it be, at least in part, because a century of Gaelicist propaganda has stripped us of what should be a deserved and legitimate pride in our Hiberno-English?

    They have a powerful extensive media of their own.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I do not agree. I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.

    We are developing a hideous mid-atlantic way of speaking which suggests to me a national inferiority complex. Another example is the use of "man" in expressions such as "Man, I'm tired" where we would previously have said "God, I'm tired" or "jayzus I'm tired." It is not a religious thing. It is pure Americanisation.
    Well, if you went back a generation or so before the midatlantic thing kicked off, there was a whole class of people who aped the Anglo-Irish, who aped the English accents. Garret Fitzgerald was one of that class, but there were plenty more like him. If you listen to recordings of the more "cultured" politicians since independence, you will find a whole range of accents coming into fashion and then disappearing again. There's probably material for a doctorate there somewhere!
    Be that as it may, those at the top of Irish society always seem to ape somebody else, at the moment it's the yanks.
    When our next overlords come from a non-English-speaking society, it will be interesting to see how this plays out: will the cream of our society force another language change on us?
    Raic wrote: »
    Well, the use of "mom" is defensible, at least, for the reasons I gave. That is, it is actually more traditional in Ireland than "mam".
    Regardless, "mom" isn't a fair example.
    Do you have any evidence that "mom" was used here in the past?
    This is the first time that I've heard anyone make your point.
    Or do you feel that it is is some way a better transliteration of "maime" that "mam" is?
    Could it be, at least in part, because a century of Gaelicist propaganda has stripped us of what should be a deserved and legitimate pride in our Hiberno-English?
    Why should we have pride in hibernoenglish?
    It's no more than English badly learnt and poorly assimilated by our ancestors.
    Lady Gregory, Synge and other writers of the ascendancy put it the mouths of the poor and ignorant that they tried to turn into "noble savages", but it was never more than a waystation en route to something else.
    Face up to it, varieties of English as spoken in Ireland are low prestige versions; German friends of mine who studied English at university told me that they were expected to learn to speak with a good accent, and stated that only two were suggested: RP and Edinburgh.
    That may have been their university only, but I'd say it's symptomatic of something wider.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    I have never heard anyone say mum. It's an almost exclusive word our neighbors use.
    Mom is the normal usage here, esp when a child is complaining :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭Raic


    deirdremf wrote: »
    Do you have any evidence that "mom" was used here in the past?
    This is the first time that I've heard anyone make your point.
    Or do you feel that it is is some way a better transliteration of "maime" that "mam" is?
    Yup, I said it earlier in the thread. It's how you would write the Irish word "mam" phonetically in English orthography. So if you have people in Gaeltacht regions talking about their "mam" (in Irish), if English gains a foothold in that area you can have them talking about their "mom" without it being an American influence. Now, just to clarify my position, I freely admit that much usage of the word "mom" in areas such as South Dublin is probably down to Americanisation.
    deirdremf wrote: »
    It's no more than English badly learnt and poorly assimilated by our ancestors.
    I think that's an unfair statement to make about Hiberno-English; you could make a similar statement about modern British English considering that it's nothing like Old English. Many, if not most of the changes (depending on definition) were the result of "mistakes" in usage.
    I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.
    The argument you are making could also be made against "mum" for being a British influence. At the end of the day, though, the short words for mother originally come from baby noises, so it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Raic wrote: »
    I think that's an unfair statement to make about Hiberno-English; you could make a similar statement about modern British English considering that it's nothing like Old English. Many, if not most of the changes (depending on definition) were the result of "mistakes" in usage.
    I couldn't disagree more.
    Hiberno-English is something developed by people who normally spoke a different language: Irish. Those who ran/run the society where these dialects were/are used did not and do not speak it; and have never aspired to speak it. Those who grow up speaking it, over the course of several generations, have left it behind them as they and their families receive better education in a higher status dialect. With each passing generation, we move further and further away from Hiberno-English, and move closer to one of the standards. This used to mean RP (Garret Fitz) but now also means Middle class East coast US - often as portrayed by Hollywood.
    We do not move the full distance - we are probably always aping an accent and a way of speech that was in vogue one or two generations previously, although the time lag is likely to be getting shorter. And given that we now have two major dialects/accents coming into our homes via TV etc, we are also getting mixed messages, with the result that we don't get things quite right.

    Of course poorer sectors of society seem to be less influenced that those at the top - I'd say though that this is just a perception, it is more likely that their models are more the Irish middle and upper-middle classes (also at a remove of one or more generations).

    I'd posit that a reason for this (and please excuse the cliched use of suburb names) could be that a young person from Blackrock or Foxrock might see themselves as being part of the International elite, maybe working in the finance sector in London or (less likely maybe) NY, while their ambitious counterparts from Ronanstown or Gurrane or Ballymurphy might aspire to getting a technical job in a multinational, with a job as a secondary teacher being as high as the best could aspire to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭Precious flower


    I can attest to the use of Mom in the West of Ireland. My father is from Rosmuc and he would always use Mom or when he is speaking about his mother or when he's asking me where mum has gone 'Where's mommy gone?' also my younger cousins in Rosmuc say it too. Makes sense since it sounds like mom in Irish. Even the Irish for grandmother in Rosmuc Mamo (think that's how (Momo) sounds like it. I though call my mum 'mummy' and dad 'daddy' which for a 20 year old to call their parents that might be weird to some people it sounds perfectly normal when I say it maybe because being born in England that's what people called their parents though I was only there until I was five. I remember as I got older I tried to sound 'more Irish' and say mam but it just sounds wrong to me. kind of say mummy on an slight English accent too! :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    When I was growing up, only english children called their mothers mum or mummy.

    In Wickla, we had Ma's Mam's and Mammies.

    I worked with a lad from Connemara who called his mother mom ( which as has been pointed out, is how the word mam is pronounced as gaeilge)

    Mum or Mummy is the single most annoying language import to Ireland for me.

    But it's a bit Canute-like at this stage to try stop it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    Yes, but at least in Ireland we tend to pronounce mum as "moom."

    I honestly never, never, heard any Irish person use "mom" until about 5 years ago, in any part of the island.


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