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History of Irish Cable

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124

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    #92
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Apparently back when RTE 1 from Maghera was on channel B, interference from TVE 2 was frequent enough during the summer (sporadic E?). It was the last Band I transmitter in the country, they moved it to Band III in 1999, dunno what else used to be on Band I. Probably going a bit OT for this thread now :D


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    #93
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    zilog_jones wrote: »
    Apparently back when RTE 1 from Maghera was on channel B, interference from TVE 2 was frequent enough during the summer (sporadic E?). It was the last Band I transmitter in the country, they moved it to Band III in 1999, dunno what else used to be on Band I. Probably going a bit OT for this thread now :D

    My point was going to be if we could receive signals from Spain and France why didn't we put their services on Cable?


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    #94
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Because the original demand for cable was largely UK TV. Which is why NI & UK had virtually no cable tv for many years after we got cable.


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    #95
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    watty wrote: »
    Because the original demand for cable was largely UK TV. Which is why NI & UK had virtually no cable tv for many years after we got cable.

    And that they were only allowed carry UK channels, before the 1980s no extra channels appeared on cable in the UK, other than good reception cable didn't provide the UK with anything extra. I am sure their would have been some interest in RTÉ in NI and in some parts of the UK similar language and all that + all the ex-pats.

    But extra European channels should have been promoted here, they had them for free for very many years.


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    #96
    MarkK
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭MarkK


    Elmo wrote: »
    My point was going to be if we could receive signals from Spain and France why didn't we put their services on Cable?

    I would think they were only available during high pressure, so not very reliable.

    I remember occasionaly being able to pick up a recognisable TVE picture on a portable telly in Dungarvan with a rabbit ear Ariel during the summer in the 80s.


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    #97
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Yes. Not normally receivable even on a 90ft mast at South Coast. I picked up TVE in Limerick City in about 1992 on a portable TV with whip once. Special Conditions.

    RTE1 Band I VHF once received in Norway in that mode.


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    #98
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,305 ✭✭✭Antenna


    1992 Cork cable channel list Attached -
    Attached is a channel list for the set-top box of Cork Multichannel's cable service in Cork city (published in the Cork Examiner) dating from early 1992. They boasted the largest channel line up anywhere in the country at the time.

    BTW - The 'Show Channel' listed on 06 was their own local channel which carried local programmes. Outside of programme times it carried 'still-picture adverts' and community notices etc on rotation (with music) at other times.

    'Technical' on 16 - this one just showed customer information as text - with I recall a mysterious continuous data signal on the audio!

    As you have gathered a set-top decoder was necessary for the basic service (since 1987/1988), not just for subscribers to Sky Sports etc.
    The only channels normally viewable by connecting the cable directly to the TV would have been RTE 1 (176MHz), Network 2 (200MHz), Show Channel (216MHz)
    There were spells of other channels being left unscrambled for a while and then being re-scrambled again. I assume this was done as a 'teaser' to get former subscribers (who usually still had the cable coming into their homes) to subscribe again!


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    #99
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Antenna wrote: »
    Outside of programme times it carried 'still-picture adverts' and community notices etc on rotation (with music) at other times.

    Were these running off an Amiga like the Limerick "Local Channel"? Sometimes the Limerick one would crash or reboot showing the blue and white AmigaDOS prompt. They were popular for such low budget TV applications as they were designed with standard resolution TV output in mind and had genlock capabilities - for example the ITV Chart Show graphics was all done with an Amiga.

    What decoders were used in Cork? Jerrold/General Instruments?


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    #100
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    FTA discussion moved here. This is only for Cable TV history.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055651524


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    #101
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    zilog_jones wrote: »
    Were there any deflectors around in the west before they started cabling Cork, Limerick, etc.? Or was it really a case of having a TV for just Bog 1 and Bog 2

    (no Bog 2 before 1978 and very limited programming hours on 1 -especially in Summer) The majority of deflectors date from the early -mid eigthties although there were some set up before/after that. Less common but still found in one or two places are/were unlicenced cable systems.

    Before 1985 in some places it was possible to recieve BBC1 or ITV on 405 lines if one lived on high ground and had an old set.

    RE: Silly local slang terms for multichannel TV along with "Piped TV" and "Wireless Cable" there is the Cork variant "Black box" (arising from the use of decoders with cable TV) But then again the term "deflector" should really only be used for the smaller on-channel relays. In parts of Munster ive heard the term "rebeaming" used)


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    #102
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Most common term I heard in Limerick was simply "the channels" :)


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    #103
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    So was it in response to sky digital or did Chorus arrive with digital a few months before Sky's offering.

    Did cablelink have any plans for Digital before being bought by NTL, had they designed an EPG.

    And did any of the local operators move to digital and do the provide Sky's pay services?


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    #104
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    In Limerick there were talks about digital TV being there by 2000 (just around the time of the Chorus rebranding). In reality digital MMDS appeared a while after, and there was no digital cable until 2006 :rolleyes:


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    #105
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,507 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Elmo wrote: »
    So was it in response to sky digital or did Chorus arrive with digital a few months before Sky's offering.

    Did cablelink have any plans for Digital before being bought by NTL, had they designed an EPG.

    And did any of the local operators move to digital and do the provide Sky's pay services?

    Digital cable was motivated by Sky's digital offering but didn't arrive here until well after Sky Digital launched on 1st October 1998. Chorus Digital launched in October 2000 but NTL Digital didn't arrive until October 2001, nearly a year later. Both services were initially only available in limited areas and took a few years to deploy accross the whole network.

    You have to remember that Sky effectively gave the cable companies a few year's breathing space in Ireland - the Sky Digital service that launched in Ireland in October 1998 cost £450 to buy the equipment, had no free installation, no terrestrial channels, no interactive services. Literally Sky's focus in its first few years as far as Ireland was concerned was to convert the existing (rather small) analogue DBS base and it was not until 2001 or so that it got its act together as far as enticing new customers was concerned (introducing the free dish and box deal which had been available in the UK from day 1, and signing carraige deals for the terrestrial channels).

    I don't think Cablelink had done much real work on a digital service before NTL took over. The NTL Digital service introduced in 2001 was based on NTL UK's equipment and infrastructure and run off their super head-end. This remained the case even after the UPC take-over and it wasn't until the DVR was introduced that UPC introduced their own equipment here and while I imagine UPC must be running off their own head-end by now (presumably the old Chorus super-head end) they have never publically said whether or not this has happened.

    The only local operator that made the move to digital was Casey Cablevision in Dungarven. The other five or six local operators that still exist are on analogue-only licences, one (Clane Cable Systems) was bought out by UPC last year.


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    #106
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    NTL did little on Digital or Broadband too. They were threatened with fines at one stage as rolling out BB+ Digital was a licence condition at one stage. Chorus managed to lose licences for Wireless phone and Wireless Broadband due to lack of roll out.

    NTL managed to convert all its small MMDS to Digital (DVB-c on 2.6GHz) before UPC take over. Chorus chose OFDM (DVB-t) instead of DVB-c (which is marginal value at 2.6GHZ) and only upgraded part of MMDS.

    Isn't Longford the next biggest after Casey? Who is Crossan?

    Digiweb Metro tested TV (DVB-t and DVB-c using MPEG4). It and Permanet are Wireless Cable (MMDS) with only the Broadband, not the TV. The 2.6GHz MMDS doesn't have the suitable pair spectrum for Broadband. Blame Comreg. Digiweb & Permanet don't have the spectrum for TV (Blame Comreg).

    SCTV's 12GHz MMDS (licences available for anyone rest of country) is using DVB-s and has no paired spectrum for Broadband. (Blame Comreg).


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    #107
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    What does Casey's EPG look like?


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    #108
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    watty wrote: »
    Chorus managed to lose licences for Wireless phone and Wireless Broadband due to lack of roll out.
    Oh yes I remember hearing about a wireless phone service - so nothing became of that? Would it have been over 2.6GHz or a different band?

    Are there still some pockets of analogue MMDS or is it all gone? I recall there were many rumours about switch off dates but they kept getting pushed back.
    Digiweb Metro tested TV (DVB-t and DVB-c using MPEG4). It and Permanet are Wireless Cable (MMDS) with only the Broadband, not the TV. The 2.6GHz MMDS doesn't have the suitable pair spectrum for Broadband. Blame Comreg. Digiweb & Permanet don't have the spectrum for TV (Blame Comreg).
    Could they not do IPTV? Or is it not feasible over their wireless networks?

    How did Smart and Magnet get licences for IPTV? Is licencing much different to cable or MMDS?


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    #109
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    IPTV is abysmal. Also needs 200x to 10,000x the bandwidth of Broadcast.

    Smart & MAgnet are using fibre/DSL , not wireless, no Spectrum licence needed, only BCI content licences (which is obviously trivial if it's the same channels as existing Irish PayTV).

    I had the Chorus Wireless Phone for 2 years (3.6GHz I think, recycled as FWA licence) and a neighbour had the Wireless Broadband.

    IPTV is horribly inefficient compared with broadcast (IP) and you can't do variable rate MPEG with statistical Multiplexing, so it needs nearly twice the bit rate for similar average quality, and can't have as high peaks.

    DVB-x is a form of Broadcast IP that is like UDP with FEC with variable data Multiplexing for the different streams. The ONLY point to IPTV is for VOD. But you need 1:1 contention for VOD.


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    #110
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    I didn't realise IPTV was that inefficient. I have Magnet here (FTTH) and the picture quality doesn't really seem any worse than UPC (though the STB is abysmal). But surely there is the big advantage that only the content currently being watched needs to be transmitted to the end user, as opposed to DVB-C or whatever where all muxes are being broadcast everywhere at all times (even stuff the subscriber isn't paying for). Does that not make things more manageable in some ways?

    Going a bit OT again... :)


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    #111
    MarkK
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭MarkK


    Elmo wrote: »
    What does Casey's EPG look like?

    I took some screen shots in 2005.
    AFAIK it has not changed much, still just "now and next" program info.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/84954015@N00/

    (Thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054850203)


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Prepare for a long post here... :)
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    CNN was available for a few months down here and was withdrawn.
    It was also available in Dublin in the mid 1990s at the very top end of Band I, not sure of the exact frequency but I'd guess about 80 MHz. However it was encrypted using Cryptovision. The reception was rubbish too, I always assumed it was because it was so near the FM radio band but that might just be in my head.
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    That was kind of mad alright. It's worth noting that, at the time, Cablelink proposed inserting local Irish ads on Sky One and Sky news to pay the fees. It was ruled out of order by the Department Of Communications (after intense lobbying by various vested interest media groups). I remember reading a letter by some head in the paper at the time that, with digital technology developing (Jerrold were trialling a system called Digicypher), there would be nothing to stop Irish versions of these channels being broadcast in the future, with the revenue disappearing outside the State. The suggestion was rebuked. Look at what's happened.:rolleyes:

    I do remember Cablelink inserting their own promos on Sky One in the mid 90s. Some were Cablelink promos but there were also some rejigged Sky ads. I certainly remember a Sky promo with Bruce Hammal where he said at the end "Tonight at 9 on Cablelink." The Sky Text service was unavailable during these optouts and there was usually a very significant pause at the end of the promo while they waited for the proper Sky One ad stream to end.
    watty wrote: »
    Properly setup Sky Analogue on a 80cm dish with a decent receiver was as good or better than Analogue Terrestrial TV.
    I couldn't agree more. The picture quality was exceptional if the dish was aligned properly. I never got to see a D-MAC or D2-MAC picture though, but did see a B-MAC one; the betting shop channel SIS used it.
    zilog_jones wrote: »
    When did they start introducing more channels? I know Sky Channel, Bravo, TCC etc. started around the mid '80s but I don't know how they were distributed to cable networks in the pre-Astra days.
    Before Astra, most services were fed from Intelsat at 27.5° west while some were from Eutelsat I-F1 at 13° east (pre-Hotbird). Sky Channel, Super Channel and TV5 were on Eutelsat. Lifestyle, Screensport, The Children's Channel and many others were on Intelsat. I have a frequency guide from 1991 which lists the channels still on Intelsat at that time.
    icdg wrote: »
    The more technically minded might be able to elaborate. My immediate reaction is that they were probably looking for a justification to keep out the then infant satellite channels that were springing up. It seems quite too coincidental that the 6 "technically possible" channels equated exactly with the number of Irish and UK terrestrial channels on air at that time.
    I'm guessing this was before the Hyperband spectrum became available. Many televisions could not tune this; I remember having a Luxor one which couldn't - I believe it only tuned as far as BBC 2 on Cablelink's Dublin system. MTV was higher up along with several of the subscription channels. Sky Sports (before it was called Sky Sports 1) used to be on 135 MHz but it moved into hyperband as I recall the picture quality on 135 was rather poor.


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    #113
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Regular Band III is 175MHz to 275MHz.
    Band IV/V is 470MHz to 862MHz
    "Full cable" sets do 110MHz to 470MHz also, "hyperband" is rough 275MHz to 470
    MHz.

    Later model TVs & VHS from 1990s could do any channel from 42MHz to 896MHz

    Band I (42MHz to 68MHz approx) is now used exclusively for Cable Broadband Upstream channels. It won't ever be used again for Cable TV. There might be the odd pocket of Cable not upgraded.


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    #114
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    watty wrote: »
    Band I (42MHz to 68MHz approx) is now used exclusively for Cable Broadband Upstream channels. It won't ever be used again for Cable TV. There might be the odd pocket of Cable not upgraded.
    The UPC network in Ballyfermot still uses Band I for television; it has Discovery on 48 MHz, Channel 4 on 56 Mhz and E4 on 64 MHz but they are also duplicated on UHF on channels 21, 30 and 34. Here in Drumcondra, band I is not used at all, the aforementioned channels are on UHF only. Even my cable modem upstream channel is on 456 MHz.


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    #115
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Upstream can only be 5MHz to 65MHz. Downstream 110MHz to 862MHz according to specification. USA DOCSIS is smaller upstream band of 15MHz to 45MHz I think.

    Of course UPC I suppose are big enough to get a non-standard Modem. But Upstream is a Transmitter. It has to be separated by a diplexer from Downstream Frequency.

    Also all the trunk amplifiers have to have two diplexers and an Upstream and Downstream Amplifier. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I can't see how they can work the trunks with a 456MHz upstream. They'd need expensive custom filters and amplifiers at every amplifier point.

    If your Modem upstream is 456MHz, what is Modem downstream? 192.168.100.1

    If UPC have such a magic Modem I can think of other applications for it :)


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    #116
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    watty wrote: »
    Upstream can only be 5MHz to 65MHz. Downstream 110MHz to 862MHz according to specification. USA DOCSIS is smaller upstream band of 15MHz to 45MHz I think.

    Of course UPC I suppose are big enough to get a non-standard Modem. But Upstream is a Transmitter. It has to be separated by a diplexer from Downstream Frequency.

    Also all the trunk amplifiers have to have two diplexers and an Upstream and Downstream Amplifier. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I can't see how they can work the trunks with a 456MHz upstream. They'd need expensive custom filters and amplifiers at every amplifier point.

    If your Modem upstream is 456MHz, what is Modem downstream? 192.168.100.1

    If UPC have such a magic Modem I can think of other applications for it :)

    I'll post a screengrab of my modem stats when I get home but it's certainly using 456 MHz for the return path. The downstream is on 426.25 Mhz.


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    #117
    DingDong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭DingDong


    There is no upstream at 456MHz more like 45.6MHz


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    #118
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    45600000 maybe on display
    some GUI SW shows 100Hz steps
    456000 x 100Hz

    Mine only lists logical channel used for US
    Initial DS frequency: 485000000 Upstream Channel ID: 3


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    #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    DingDong wrote: »
    There is no upstream at 456MHz more like 45.6MHz

    Damn I feel stupid now, you were right. Miscounted the zeros. :( I don't like the transmit power though, seems a little high, but that's nothing to do with this thread.

    88405.png


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    #120
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    59dBm is absolute max Upstream power. You have an upstream issue. Contact UPC :)

    Check for dodgy splitters and non-BB amps.


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    #121
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Back to NTL Chorus sale to UPC?

    NTL sell to UPC Chorus' parent company. (Not sure when UPC took Princes holdings in Chorus). Liberty Global (UPC's owners) have shares in telewest, so was an arrangement made that Virgin would takeover the newly merged NTL Telewest, with Liberty taking their shares in NTL Ireland?

    Also I vaguely remember Esat bring NTL to court over the sale of Cablelink. Was it because NTL said that they would pay 10% on top of what the highest bidder was offering?


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