What is your religion and why is it the right one?

Nevyn · 17-11-2006 1:53pm

6th wrote:

Big thanks for that, I had no idea how to lay out my beliefs but you did it for me

Gah, don't mean to offend 6th but your response is one of the reasons I am
careful about making such posts.
Such me toos worry me.
I can understand reading that and having all those statements tick boxes at is were.

aidan24326 · 17-11-2006 3:58pm

I believe in soul journeys.
-I believe that humans have invented the idea of a soul to circumvent the thorny problem of what could possibly survive after death. The fact that the soul concept is extremely difficult and maybe even impossible to ever prove or disprove makes it ideal for this purpose.

I believe in reincarnation.
-I would consider reincarnation to be impossible. What part of 'you' can live on in the form of another entity in any meaningful way? I have never heard a plausible explanation for this yet. I feel many people 'believe' in reincarnation without really considering the full philosophical implications of it.

I believe in destiny.
I believe we have free will.
-I also believe we have free will, as a necessary part of our makeup. But are destiny and freewill compatible? If I was destined for a certain path in life, would I be just joining the dots? Or is the illusion of freewill the same thing as freewill anyway? Best to avoid that one for now methinks.

I believe there is a divine spark in every person and we should honour and respect each other.
-Honour and respect each other yes.

I believe in living conciously and constantly question my actions and how theyimpact on myself those around me and my enviroment and the earth.
-Can't argue with any of that.

I believe we make our own luck.
-Agreed. Good things usually (though maybe not always) come to those who make it happen for themselves. My grandmother once told me a story about the guy who keeps on praying to god that he'll win the lottery. Every week the same. Eventually god gets p1ssed off with this and tells him 'you might wanna buy a ticket first'. I'm sure there was some sort of message in there somewhere.

I believe in living in harmony and being aware of the change of seasons and how they effect us.
-Respect for nature I can't argue with. Though I'm curious as to how the changing of seasons is still seen as such an important event in pagan culture, when it is probably a leftover from a time when living off the land (i.e farming,crops etc.) would have been more crucial in people's everyday life than it is now. I guess it's retained as a custom more than anything else?

I believe we have tasks to do in each life be they big public works, or being someones parent or just being in the right place at the right time for one person when they need somone the most.
-Some value in that for sure. Just the 'each life' bit I'd have issue with.

I believe in being grounded in this life as a human person and making the most of my gifts and living the best life I can and not squandering opertunities ...
-Amen.

wolfsbane · 17-11-2006 7:02pm

Scofflaw said:

And observable to be true by anyone, as often as you like (depending on duration of phenomenon).

So the sky is not blue since a blind man cannot see it?

Actually, you can't. To take another example - you might believe you have an invisible bump on the end of your nose, but not in fact have one as far as anyone else can see. Your experience of your bump is subjective - it is, to you, both a belief and a fact. However, it is not a fact,and cannot be a fact, because it is not verifiable by anyone else.

As above. Your example only shows that a belief may or may not be a fact, not that it is not a fact.

Even if you were to say "there are so many others of like mind that it is more likely that we are right" - you would know that not to be the case, since the majority of people in the world are not Christians, let alone Christians of your particular persuasion.

A fact is a fact, no matter who/how may believe/disbelieve it.

Your "fact", then, is neither objectively nor democratically verifiable. It is not a fact, it is a belief, or a subjective truth.

Your definition of fact is a belief about fact, but not a fact about it.

The facts about it are found in the dictionaries, and they do not agree with your definition.

Exactly wrong. That you have something that you consider to be "experience of God" is the objective fact. However, your interpretation of your "experience of God" is just that - interpretation. Since your experience of God is uniquely personal to you (your claim) it can never be an objective fact, because you are not repeatable, and your experiences are neither capable of being experienced nor transmissible except through your interpretive faculties.

Certainly, but I know it to be an objective fact. You may question my state of mind, but you cannot know that this is not reality I'm describing. That's all I'm saying - one's beliefs may be factual.

aidan24326 · 17-11-2006 7:44pm

wolfsbane wrote:

Certainly, but I know it to be an objective fact. You may question my state of mind, but you cannot know that this is not reality I'm describing. That's all I'm saying - one's beliefs may be factual.

wolfsbane, if all human thinking was conducted in this way, human interaction would not be possible. Everyone would claim that their own 'experience' or personal feeling was absolute objective reality. It simply cannot work like that for very good reasons. By your reasoning, I can say that because I don't believe in the god of christianity, then that means he absolutely does not exist. There you go. I just thought god out of all existence. Easy really. No need for any further debate on the issue. I will inform the pope of my discovery so he can dissolve the catholic church

Scofflaw · 17-11-2006 11:56pm

wolfsbane wrote:

Scofflaw wrote:

And observable to be true by anyone, as often as you like (depending on duration of phenomenon).

So the sky is not blue since a blind man cannot see it?

Oh, come on, wolfsbane, that's feeble. Very well - observable to be true by anyone capable of observing it - in terms of nature, equipment, location, direction, timing, all the rest.

wolfsbane wrote:

As above. Your example only shows that a belief may or may not be a fact, not that it is not a fact.

A fact is a fact, no matter who/how may believe/disbelieve it.

Compare and contrast. Your belief may be a fact, but since the evidence is only subjective, and indeed is available uniquely to you, it remains absolutely impossible to prove it a fact. You might be right, you might not.

Since you are using your experience as a guide to the existence and nature of an external entity, we would require somewhat more than just your say-so.

wolfsbane wrote:

Your definition of fact is a belief about fact, but not a fact about it. The facts about it are found in the dictionaries, and they do not agree with your definition.

Certainly, but I know it to be an objective fact. You may question my state of mind, but you cannot know that this is not reality I'm describing. That's all I'm saying - one's beliefs may be factual.

Indeed, we cannot say for sure that your experience is not correct. We can definitely say that your claim that is objective fact is entirely unwarranted, despite your belief - indeed, something less like an objective fact it would be hard to find. We can therefore also say that we would like to see some form of proof, or some form of corroboration, before we accept it as anything more than your entirely personal subjective truth. Your experience of God, as I said, proves nothing but that you, personally, believe you have experienced God.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod · 18-11-2006 4:21pm

Thaedydal wrote:

Right and I am prolly going to regret this but
any more questions ?

Thanks Thaedydal, that was a very enjoyable explanation. You more than answered my Questions. I respect your stance.

Tabnabs · 18-11-2006 4:37pm

wolfsbane wrote:

So the sky is not blue since a blind man cannot see it?

I have looked above me and seen a red sky, at night the sky is black and I have even seen the sky turn green. It would seem to me to be a fact that there are many skies, or many facts...

Tar.Aldarion · 18-11-2006 5:19pm

Science tells us why the sky appears different coulours, probably just a coincidene that it is right though. (:

I guess the only reason I think my choice is right(Agnosticism.) is because it is the most logical, and I have no reason to believe in anything.

Asiaprod · 21-11-2006 1:39am

Thaedydal wrote:

This can range from .... answering people questions at times ( :P yes this post is one those things and I got a talking too about it from my gods )

What a gem:) , I nearly missed that. It is fascinating to hear of your one-on-one interaction with your deity. How wonderful for you. If I was ever to be inclined to accept a patron deity or gods that is exactly what I would expect and need to sustain my belief. No fairy stories, real direct communication.
Buddhism is similar in that we also have a type of communion, not verbal, but we do clearly see the interaction of our belief in our lives.
Hope that makes sense.

wolfsbane · 25-11-2006 8:58pm

aidan24326 said:

wolfsbane, if all human thinking was conducted in this way, human interaction would not be possible. Everyone would claim that their own 'experience' or personal feeling was absolute objective reality. It simply cannot work like that for very good reasons. By your reasoning, I can say that because I don't believe in the god of christianity, then that means he absolutely does not exist.

I'm not saying that at all: I specifically said you cannot know that this is not reality I'm describing. That's all I'm saying - one's beliefs may be factual. How does that become everyone's beliefs are factual?

People may claim whatever they like. That means neither that it is factual nor that it's not. If you don't witness it, or you don't know facts that would make it impossible, you cannot say either way.

wolfsbane · 25-11-2006 9:25pm

Scofflaw said:

Very well - observable to be true by anyone capable of observing it - in terms of nature, equipment, location, direction, timing, all the rest.

Exactly.

Compare and contrast. Your belief may be a fact, but since the evidence is only subjective, and indeed is available uniquely to you, it remains absolutely impossible to prove it a fact. You might be right, you might not.

Quite so.

Since you are using your experience as a guide to the existence and nature of an external entity, we would require somewhat more than just your say-so.

Absolutely.

Indeed, we cannot say for sure that your experience is not correct. We can definitely say that your claim that is objective fact is entirely unwarranted, despite your belief - indeed, something less like an objective fact it would be hard to find.

Definition of objective:
5. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
8. of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
The sky is blue, the apple is red, etc. - all objective facts, even though some cannot perceive that. So what you can rightly say is that what I claim to be an objective fact may or may not be the case.

The problem is that you want to define objective fact as one that everyone can perceive. Is that the standard definition?

We can therefore also say that we would like to see some form of proof, or some form of corroboration, before we accept it as anything more than your entirely personal subjective truth. Your experience of God, as I said, proves nothing but that you, personally, believe you have experienced God.

What is subjective may also be objective, No? What one holds to be so may be imagination, or it may be reality. It was not my claim here that my beliefs about God are true, but that bluewolf was wrong when he said It's your belief in god, wolfsbane, not a fact. Trying to pretend otherwise isn't going to make it any more true. He was claiming to know that it wasn't a fact. All he really knows is that he does know for sure either way.

Scofflaw · 26-11-2006 1:27am

wolfsbane wrote:

Definition of objective:
5. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
8. of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
The sky is blue, the apple is red, etc. - all objective facts, even though some cannot perceive that. So what you can rightly say is that what I claim to be an objective fact may or may not be the case.

The problem is that you want to define objective fact as one that everyone can perceive. Is that the standard definition?

The definition of an "objective fact" I would use would be "one that everyone could perceive" - assuming necessary equipment, etc.

We can never move beyond your statement of belief, because to be able to perceive your experience, the second observer would also have to be you. Therefore we certainly cannot ever say that your experience of God is "existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality", can we?

In turn, therefore, we will never know that the experience is "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice".

wolfsbane wrote:

What is subjective may also be objective, No? What one holds to be so may be imagination, or it may be reality. It was not my claim here that my beliefs about God are true, but that bluewolf was wrong when he said It's your belief in god, wolfsbane, not a fact. Trying to pretend otherwise isn't going to make it any more true. He was claiming to know that it wasn't a fact. All he really knows is that he does know for sure either way.

No, he was pointing out that you cannot claim it to be anything more than a belief. You believe that it is a fact, but that, again, is only your belief. It is non-replicable, and therefore can never be found anything other than subjective.

cordially,
Scofflaw

wolfsbane · 26-11-2006 10:03pm

Scofflaw said:

We can never move beyond your statement of belief, because to be able to perceive your experience, the second observer would also have to be you. Therefore we certainly cannot ever say that your experience of God is "existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality", can we?

God either exists or He doesn't. My belief in Him doesn't alter that. So another person may well know Him. To return to the sky and the blind man - if lots of blind folk told me that the idea that the sky was blue was only a belief, not a fact, would they be right? Would a second observer would also have to be me for them to see the blue sky? No, just have seeing eyes.

In turn, therefore, we will never know that the experience is "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice".

Not while you remain in your blindness:
2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

No, he was pointing out that you cannot claim it to be anything more than a belief. You believe that it is a fact, but that, again, is only your belief. It is non-replicable, and therefore can never be found anything other than subjective

Millions have replicated it. I live with two of them; I worshipped with about 200 of them this morning.

Scofflaw · 27-11-2006 1:41am

wolfsbane wrote:

God either exists or He doesn't. My belief in Him doesn't alter that. So another person may well know Him. To return to the sky and the blind man - if lots of blind folk told me that the idea that the sky was blue was only a belief, not a fact, would they be right? Would a second observer would also have to be me for them to see the blue sky? No, just have seeing eyes.

It can also be measured instrumentally. We can also eliminate certain forms of cultural bias by noting that people worldwide agree that it is blue.

However, we cannot use your 'experience' of the sky's 'blueness'. Aside from anything else, we cannot, as the old philosophical chestnut tells us, determine whether what appears blue to you would appear green to me or not. That is the bit that is subjective. There is no evidence, for example, that the God you have experienced is not the Devil instead.

wolfsbane wrote:

Not while you remain in your blindness:
2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Yes, yes. We consider each other blinded fools. Noted and agreed.

wolfsbane wrote:

Millions have replicated it. I live with two of them; I worshipped with about 200 of them this morning.

And billions have not. If the history of religion tells us anything, it is that people's expereince of God is effectively unique - indeed, I believe that a "personal relationship with God" is one of the selling points of your package...

You may all accept the pro-forma outline of deity from the bible, but your experience remains subjective. The experience of the next million is also subjective, and, I think you'd find if you enquired, not identical. That suggests that all you share is the type of mind that likes to make concrete and personal the sacred.

cordially,
as ever,
Scofflaw

wolfsbane · 29-11-2006 10:55pm

Scofflaw said:

However, we cannot use your 'experience' of the sky's 'blueness'. Aside from anything else, we cannot, as the old philosophical chestnut tells us, determine whether what appears blue to you would appear green to me or not. That is the bit that is subjective. There is no evidence, for example, that the God you have experienced is not the Devil instead.

All you are saying is that I may be mistaken about the reality I claim to see. All I am saying is that bluewolf cannot say it is not a fact. He can only rightly say, as an outsider, that it may not be a fact. As one who is on the inside, I see and am persuaded.

As indicated on another thread, I'm afraid I won't be able to post anymore until the holidays - due to pressure of work. If anyone wants to PM me, I'll be keeping an eye on that.

All the very best, my friends.

Scofflaw · 30-11-2006 2:00am

wolfsbane wrote:

All you are saying is that I may be mistaken about the reality I claim to see. All I am saying is that bluewolf cannot say it is not a fact. He can only rightly say, as an outsider, that it may not be a fact. As one who is on the inside, I see and am persuaded.

Which is the very hallmark of a subjective experience. What you are actually claiming is that you may have experienced something (God) that is factually real, and that your experience itself is factually real.

The latter is less arguable, but cannot, in any event, lead to a claim about the former. You have had a real experience, and it may well even have been measurable....however it is not a 'fact' that you experienced God, whether you did or not.

If you claimed to have experienced a great joy at the playing of Bach, that is not a fact either - it is a subjective perception, entirely without meaning outside you yourself. It tells us nothing about Bach, except that you like it.

Even worse, if you were to claim to have 'experienced' music - what would we make of this? Clearly, it is not a fact - whether you did experience the music or only thought you experienced it is irrelevant, as long as the music could not be observed by a separate observer.

wolfsbane wrote:

As indicated on another thread, I'm afraid I won't be able to post anymore until the holidays - due to pressure of work. If anyone wants to PM me, I'll be keeping an eye on that.

All the very best, my friends.

Best of luck!

cordially,
Scofflaw

coffee_cake · 30-11-2006 12:32pm

wolfsbane wrote:

Scofflaw said:

All you are saying is that I may be mistaken about the reality I claim to see. All I am saying is that bluewolf cannot say it is not a fact. He can only rightly say, as an outsider, that it may not be a fact. As one who is on the inside, I see and am persuaded.

As indicated on another thread, I'm afraid I won't be able to post anymore until the holidays - due to pressure of work. If anyone wants to PM me, I'll be keeping an eye on that.

All the very best, my friends.

Wah, I'm female.

And if you agree that "I think it's a fact but someone else may not agree and we can't prove it beyond doubt" then it's subjective, not objective
which means it's not a fact, it's a belief or an experience
Saying that it's a belief doesn't mean you're absolutely wrong, it just means it's not a fact if/until someone can prove to everyone properly that it is

What is your religion and why is it the right one?

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