Did modern feminism get it wrong about men?

17-06-2014 2:09am

newport2 wrote: »

I remember reading somewhere an article written by a woman working in a male dominated environment (NYPD or something like that). She said that what she initially thought was sexist behaviour towards her by men was actually men treating her exactly the same as they treat each other. When she stood back and looked, it was obvious that they made derogatory marks about each other all the time, used demeaning names and honed in to slag each other on any perceived weaknesses that stood out. Her point in the article is that while a lot of woman state they want to be treated equally to men, when it happens they don't like it. (she also stated that she was not denying sexism in the workplace existed - it does - but some of what is perceived as sexism is men treating women the way they treat other men)

Watch Gilette Soccer Saturday some time next year. There's a female correspondent who stutters plenty and is never called up on it. She could make a mistake in every report without it being mentioned, one of the lads mispronounces a name and it'll be in the Christmas special. It's not ok to "pick on" women.

iptba · 07-09-2014 4:40am

I'm unsure whether this is or will be in Time magazine itself

5 Feminist Myths That Will Not Die

Christina Hoff Sommers
Sept. 2, 2014
https://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-myths-that-will-not-die/

iptba · 07-09-2014 5:27am

Women Against Feminism: Some women want equality without anger

By Cathy Young | September 02, 2014

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/09/01/women-against-feminism-some-women-want-equality-without-anger/rqFNSIJp22YWQy6jGPvhPJ/story.html

Emme · 07-09-2014 9:09pm

Feminism helped women achieve equal pay for equal work and the ability to do things like take out a mortgage on their own.

However, the more militant aspects of feminism have done women more harm than good. In the 1980s women "you can have it all" meaning career, partner and children. Time has shown this is not possible for most people.

Dial Hard · 08-09-2014 12:27pm

The extremely vocal harcore minority have made feminism into a dirty word and it's a bigger shame than I think I lot of people realise because it has essentially changed the entire perception of what was an extremely important and badly-needed movement. To a lot of people, feminism is now pretty much a synonym for misandry, when that was never, ever what feminism was about.

I 100% consider myself a feminist, but I've seen it written on this very forum that "all men" should run a mile from any woman who identifies as a feminist, because, apparently, we're all miserable, man-hating bitches who just want to subjugate and emasculate the entire male population of the world.

Third/fourth wave feminism is not my feminism. I fcuking love men. And I think the genders are far more alike than we are different. But extremely vocal commentators on both sides of the divide refute this. And there is a divide, and it's one that I don't think was so prevalent even ten years ago. There's a poster in TGC who seems to come at every single topic, even if it's unrelated to gender issues, from a viewpoint that there's some kind of outright gender war going on and that all women are in on it. But all I can say is that I, as a self-identified feminist, think 90% of what's spouted by new-wave feminism, most of which seems to be coming out of the US, is utter dross.

diveout · 08-09-2014 12:28pm

What I don't appreciate about feminism, is a small group of women taking it upon themselves to speak for me.

Shut up.

ancapailldorcha · 08-09-2014 1:14pm

Dial Hard wrote: »

The extremely vocal harcore minority have made feminism into a dirty word and it's a bigger shame than I think I lot of people realise because it has essentially changed the entire perception of what was an extremely important and badly-needed movement. To a lot of people, feminism is now pretty much a synonym for misandry, when that was never, ever what feminism was about.

I 100% consider myself a feminist, but I've seen it written on this very forum that "all men" should run a mile from any woman who identifies as a feminist, because, apparently, we're all miserable, man-hating bitches who just want to subjugate and emasculate the entire male population of the world.

Third/fourth wave feminism is not my feminism. I fcuking love men. And I think the genders are far more alike than we are different. But extremely vocal commentators on both sides of the divide refute this. And there is a divide, and it's one that I don't think was so prevalent even ten years ago. There's a poster in TGC who seems to come at every single topic, even if it's unrelated to gender issues, from a viewpoint that there's some kind of outright gender war going on and that all women are in on it. But all I can say is that I, as a self-identified feminist, think 90% of what's spouted by new-wave feminism, most of which seems to be coming out of the US, is utter dross.

I had a debate online with an American lady on my Facebook after she shared a poster with the infamous "1 in 5" and "77 cents for every dollar" statistics on it. I questions them and she just blindly defended them. A quick google would show that most of these stats may not be true.
According to Wikipedia, there are 21 million people in higher eductation in the US. Assuming that 10.5 are women then this would equate to somewhere between 2 - 2.5 million women being raped every year and this is just in higher education. Personally, I find this hard to believe.
Bottom line, from perusing the Ladies Lounge and this forum, I think that most chaps would agree that women do get a raw deal in some areas like politics and IT whereas most women are smart enough to realise that most guys aren't perverts and that quotas aren't the answer to anything.
The problem stems from being assaulted with the same stats and viewpoints repeatedly. TV portrays men as gullible idiots while the news is worse again. I used to work in repairs for a medical device firm and developed the opinion that most of our products were poor quality based on the fact that I spent my day fixing things. I had to be reminded that only a small fraction of our output was ever sent back and that most of the faults were due to extreme old age or normal wear & tear.

Carlos Orange · 08-09-2014 2:54pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think that most chaps would agree that women do get a raw deal in some areas like politics and IT

What raw deal do women get in IT? Being a minority of IT workers does not in itself constitute a 'raw deal'.

ancapailldorcha · 08-09-2014 3:28pm

psinno wrote: »

What raw deal do women get in IT? Being a minority of IT workers does not in itself constitute a 'raw deal'.

I know a fair few people in IT, all men and they've told me that misogyny is a problem in both the IT and gaming sectors.

Carlos Orange · 08-09-2014 3:55pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I know a fair few people in IT, all men and they've told me that misogyny is a problem in both the IT and gaming sectors.

Were they talking about the companies they worked for?

ancapailldorcha · 08-09-2014 4:27pm

psinno wrote: »

Were they talking about the companies they worked for?

A few were in academia, but yes.

cookiexx · 08-09-2014 6:49pm

diveout wrote: »

What I don't appreciate about feminism, is a small group of women taking it upon themselves to speak for me.

Shut up.

I agree with this actually.

I don't identify with this '1 in 5 women have been raped' figure. Or the idea that as a woman I should relate to sexual assault or the high risk of rape every time I leave the house. Perhaps the statistics don't lie, but I don't live my life in fear of being attacked or walking down the street on my own.

Most of the attention I get from men is positive. I like the wolf whistles, the odd shout or the prolonged glances of appreciation. They don't make me feel like a victim, they make me feel flattered, attractive. Sometimes is goes from complimentary to smutty and inappropriate - I'm an adult so I assert my boundaries and walk away.

I've had a lively, fulfilling career not because of or in spite of my gender - because I worked hard and showed initiative and enthusiasm. I've had male and female managers, all of whom just treated me like 'cookiexx', not with any discriminatory or preferential treatment.

There are some individuals who WILL see the world through a sexism prism, degrade me or dismiss me because I am a woman or cast judgement - to be honest there are as many as women as men who will do this.

But I've never felt like a victim, or like my gender has a negative impact on my quality of life or people's perceptions of me. I can't understand this brand of feminism that claims I should be feeling this way, or I'm 'just not looking hard enough'.

py2006 · 08-09-2014 8:15pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I know a fair few people in IT, all men and they've told me that misogyny is a problem in both the IT and gaming sectors.

Misogyny or sexism? Or do you equate both?

I really hate the word misogyny as, to me anyway, it must be a very small minority that actually HATE women. Its a word used flippantly these days by hardcore/pseudo feminists.

ancapailldorcha · 08-09-2014 8:28pm

py2006 wrote: »

Misogyny or sexism? Or do you equate both?

I really hate the word misogyny as, to me anyway, it must be a very small minority that actually HATE women. Its a word used flippantly these days by hardcore/pseudo feminists.

Hmmm... Perhaps sexism might have been a bit more appropriate.

I completely agree with the bulk of your post. What really ticks me off is that when the likes of the Guardian reports on genuine instances of sexism or misogyny, my initial reaction is to chalk it up as typical whinging which is unacceptable but there's no way to differentiate between actual statistics and "Guardian fluff".

py2006 · 08-09-2014 8:36pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What really ticks me off is that when the likes of the Guardian reports on genuine instances of sexism or misogyny, my initial reaction is to chalk it up as typical whinging which is unacceptable but there's no way to differentiate between actual statistics and "Guardian fluff".

I think the media in general has gone really downhill in the last few years. It seems to be an unmoderated platform for deranged feminists with articles ridiculing men or articles looking for sexism or misogyny were it doesn't exist. The Irish Times (surprisingly enough) has been guilty of this too of late. There seems to be reluctance from certain media outlets to moderate or reject these articles for fear of being branded sexist/misogynist or not giving enough outlets to women. At least thats the way I see it.

ancapailldorcha · 08-09-2014 8:41pm

py2006 wrote: »

I think the media in general has gone really downhill in the last few years. It seems to be an unmoderated platform for deranged feminists with articles ridiculing men or articles looking for sexism or misogyny were it doesn't exist. The Irish Times (surprisingly enough) has been guilty of this too of late. There seems to be reluctance from certain media outlets to moderate or reject these articles for fear of being branded sexist/misogynist or not giving enough outlets to women. At least thats the way I see it.

I don't fully agree but your post has merit. Rather than a concerted agenda, I think it's more likely that the modern white man is the only acceptable target for ridicule and derision. Remember the feminist outcry at the Rotherham incident? I don't. I remember thinking that the Irish Times was a decent paper, relatively speaking at least but now they've given bigots like Una Mullaly a platform, they can do without my traffic and custom.

py2006 · 08-09-2014 8:51pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't fully agree but your post has merit. Rather than a concerted agenda, I think it's more likely that the modern white man is the only acceptable target for ridicule and derision. Remember the feminist outcry at the Rotherham incident? I don't. I remember thinking that the Irish Times was a decent paper, relatively speaking at least but now they've given bigots like Una Mullaly a platform, they can do without my traffic and custom.

Una Mullallys agenda articles aside, her grasp of the English language and her ability to put words down is a country mile away from the standard that you would expect from the Irish Times. At times I expect her to go into text speak! I am really, really surprised she is allowed write for them. It is as if an editor doesn't read her articles for language/structure let alone for ludicrous generalisations and sexism.

Carlos Orange · 08-09-2014 9:00pm

py2006 wrote: »

Una Mullallys agenda articles aside, her grasp of the English language and her ability to put words down is a country mile away from the standard that you would expect from the Irish Times. At times I expect her to go into text speak! I am really, really surprised she is allowed write for them. It is as if an editor doesn't read her articles for language/structure let alone for ludicrous generalisations and sexism.

I'm sure her editor is reading the hit counter.

py2006 · 08-09-2014 9:17pm

psinno wrote: »

I'm sure her editor is reading the hit counter.

May be so, she has generated a bit of talk with her controversy. However, I think the Times have a reputation to uphold. I am sure they do not wish their articles to be on a par with the Daily Mail but I could be wrong.

Interestingly enough she appeared on a radio show and her response to the negative feedback to her deluded articles was something along the lines of men not wanting women to have a voice. :rolleyes:

ancapailldorcha · 08-09-2014 9:32pm

py2006 wrote: »

May be so, she has generated a bit of talk with her controversy. However, I think the Times have a reputation to uphold. I am sure they do not wish their articles to be on a par with the Daily Mail but I could be wrong.

Interestingly enough she appeared on a radio show and her response to the negative feedback to her deluded articles was something along the lines of men not wanting women to have a voice. :rolleyes:

I doubt they care once they're getting more sales. I suppose have a "feminist columnist" makes them look modern.

iptba · 14-10-2014 12:23am

(July article)

Stop Fem-Splaining: What ‘Women Against Feminism’ Gets Right
by
Cathy Young
http://time.com/3028827/women-against-feminism-gets-it-right/

tritium · 14-10-2014 7:36am

iptba wrote: »

(July article)

That actually a superb article. I wish I'd had it during the numerous debates on boards that descend into "you're generalising, not all feminists are like that. Where's your proof, this is what feminism really means" nonsense

py2006 · 14-10-2014 5:18pm

Yea that is a really good article. I am going to bookmark it and refer to it in future discussions.

Piliger · 14-10-2014 5:43pm

py2006 wrote: »

Yea that is a really good article. I am going to bookmark it and refer to it in future discussions.

Indeed. It is sad and somewhat tragic that it is so unusual that it has this effect on so many of us.

What we men must also do however is realise that these extreme- or neo- feminists (whatever we call them) are not operating in a vaccuum. They are being encouraged and enabled by a section of the male population that has bought into the propaganda of that feminism over the last 42 years. That very propaganda that Devon speaks about in this article " (women) ..as victims and men as perverts, bullies and misogynists."

I meet men like this on a regular basis. They actually think that men are nasty and that inside themselves is a dark male identity kept in check only by society and feminism. They don't believe that the court system is so prejudiced until it happens to them or a mate of theirs. Then they have this sudden shock reaction.

These men are in all walks of life and at all levels and it is men like this, in the media and politics that are cooperating with the appallingly biased justice system (the judges themselves !) the educations system (so many head teachers are actually men) and members of parliament who promote sexist laws against men and the kind of appalling campaigns illustrated by the Irish domestic violence campaigns.

Boards.ie forums like this are crucial in trying to wake more men up to the prejudice and sexism that is happening to men all around us.

iptba · 20-10-2014 12:09am

(October 16 article)

Feminism vs. Responsibility
http://franksmithblog.blogspot.ie/2014/10/feminism-vs-responsibility.html

But many feminists are trying to take away women’s agency and turn them into victim objects with no power at all.

Shakespeare's Sister · 20-10-2014 12:21am

tritium wrote: »

That actually a superb article. I wish I'd had it during the numerous debates on boards that descend into "you're generalising, not all feminists are like that. Where's your proof, this is what feminism really means" nonsense

But doesn't it say something along those very lines in the intro to that article?

The charge that feminism stereotypes men as predators while reducing women to helpless victims certainly doesn’t apply to all feminists, but it’s a reasonably fair description of a large, influential, highly visible segment of modern feminism

I would agree very much. Good article - definitely gives insight into why people would have a problem with a lot of feminists/feminism.

donfers · 20-10-2014 7:44pm

Piliger wrote: »

Indeed. It is sad and somewhat tragic that it is so unusual that it has this effect on so many of us.

What we men must also do however is realise that these extreme- or neo- feminists (whatever we call them) are not operating in a vaccuum. They are being encouraged and enabled by a section of the male population that has bought into the propaganda of that feminism over the last 42 years. That very propaganda that Devon speaks about in this article " (women) ..as victims and men as perverts, bullies and misogynists."

I meet men like this on a regular basis. They actually think that men are nasty and that inside themselves is a dark male identity kept in check only by society and feminism. They don't believe that the court system is so prejudiced until it happens to them or a mate of theirs. Then they have this sudden shock reaction.

These men are in all walks of life and at all levels and it is men like this, in the media and politics that are cooperating with the appallingly biased justice system (the judges themselves !) the educations system (so many head teachers are actually men) and members of parliament who promote sexist laws against men and the kind of appalling campaigns illustrated by the Irish domestic violence campaigns.

Boards.ie forums like this are crucial in trying to wake more men up to the prejudice and sexism that is happening to men all around us.

Yes, in a way you are illustrating a very important and often overlooked point. Men do not pontificate, influence, cajole, lobby or legislate for other men, they do it to keep themselves in power and it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that what is currently de digeur in the Western liberal media is the womens' agenda. So these men, the cheap political opportunists that they are, will simply attach themselves to the latest populist bandwagon to roll into town, one that will keep the most people happy and generate the least heat. It's not about what is just or what is right - it's about whoring yourself out to whatever is the politically fashionable ideology of the day i.e. woman = victim and man = fair game.

Therefore the oft repeated feminist mantra for quotas in politics, boards of Fortune 500 companies etc. won't really make an iota of difference, except maybe lead some to rightfully question the credibility and suitability of those appointed to their position as a result of a discriminatory system. Indeed the implication in feminism's line of thinking is simply absurd; that men legislate for other men and to offset this imbalanced political model the intention presumably is to get more women involved so that they can enforce laws and regulations to benefit other woman.

Is this really the sort of Society we want to live in? Have none of these people ever considered misty-eyed notions like inclusiveness and the bigger picture? The reality is that a very small number of mainly men and a few women have real power in the world and they don't consciously exert this power to elevate the position of men in general in society. They have absolutely zero interest in that, their only concern is maintaining their own power and ensuring the rest of us spend our time squabbling over the crumbs left from their table - whether that be crisp ads, political quotas, mens' rights discussions at Universities or the bahviour of twitter trolls. Feminists are missing the point of the whole equality debate by a lightyear or two. They think they are progressing, they celebrate hollow victories, they seek to justify their impregnable positions in academia, media outlets and government-funded (bribed?) community organizations by waging war on the easy target that is ordinary Joe on the street. They now are straying into attempts to enforce a kind of thought-police type of faux-morality because they are running out of real and tangible things to whinge about, and all the time what has failed to dawn on them is that the only real progression they are making is towards further division. Meanwhile the small superclass of mainly men who hold real power are laughing at them, rubbing their hands in glee, thinking "You go girls - keep on going in the wrong direction, never knowing your true enemies - ignorance, hubris and misguided self-interest".

tritium · 20-10-2014 9:10pm

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

But doesn't it say something along those very lines in the intro to that article?

I would agree very much. Good article - definitely gives insight into why people would have a problem with a lot of feminists/feminism.

Yes it does, but that's exactly the point. The standard defence used usually runs something along the lines of 'its only a small minority' often coupled with 'sure everyone's really a feminist' or some variation. Then the smug ALL feminists? Line is thrown out and rather than engage in debate on whether this is a problem for feminism and one they should take seriously the thread is deliberately derailed into a series of semantic arguments ( I actually had this on a thread only a few days ago!)

The reality is that there is a very vocal, influential and demonstratably numerically significant block within feminism that has turned a great many people off that word. Feminists just doing the lalalala I dont hear you stuff to things in full view while claiming its just a minority doesn't cut it any more, especially when so many feminist campaigns place such an emphasis on target groups to take responsibility for minority actions within that group.

This article gives a very succinct whistlestop tour of the many ills that broader feminist movement has perhaps been slow to acknowledge- I don't know why that is, perhaps a 'were all in this together sisters' mindset. It is however something feminism will have to face up to sooner or later.

KomradeBishop · 21-10-2014 1:15am

iptba wrote: »

(July article)

Stop Fem-Splaining: What ‘Women Against Feminism’ Gets Right
by
Cathy Young

Ya watch for that author, she has been heavily active in Libertarian think-tanks like Cato and publications like Reason - I'm finding that absolutely loads of the backing that people use, as an attack on feminism, originates from the Libertarian think-tank network (i.e. the kind of groups that are happy to support stuff like climate change denial, previously supported the tobacco industries attempts to downplay cancer risk etc.).

These are not good sources; this author in particular, likes to lionize people like Ayn Rand and Margaret Thatcher. That and her other associations, means people should be hyper-skeptical of her writing.

I find it very interesting, that so many of the sources I find that are supporting the ammo for mens-rights-attacks-on-feminism narrative, are originating almost exclusively from Libertarian think tanks.

Even a small number of the more extreme posters you see on Boards too, attacking feminism, have a very visible right-wing/Libertarian bent (one lately, was very fond of dismissing feminism as a 'Marxist' ideology) - it'd help explain why there's such an explosion of activity on the type of topic lately, because these think-tanks shuffle around tens of millions on a regular basis, obviously are spending plenty of money on generating publications/ammo for the topic, and also have a history of funding grassroots astroturfing online and offline too.

Piliger · 21-10-2014 2:36am

Trying to reduce everything down to your favourite bogey men never looks good. And this doesn't either. I find this analysis completely false and disingenuous

Did modern feminism get it wrong about men?

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