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Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga to be Closed.

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2456

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    #32
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Zero savings sounds illogical TBH. If they close the office they must be either paying rent on it or selling the building afterwards or moving something else in there and then they can stop paying rent elsewhere.

    I doubt it is as simple as there are zero savings because nobody lost their job.


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    #33
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I don't know, but that's hardily relevant anyway as not even close to every document is translated as it stands.
    But the act passed by Fianna Fail which established the Office of the Irish Language Commissioner quango and gave it considerable enforcement powers, sets out that all documents and services, including web sites and phone services must be provided in Irish and the Language Commissioner's office has been turning up he heat on public bodies, right?


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    #34
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    But the act passed by Fianna Fail which established the Office of the Irish Language Commissioner quango and gave it considerable enforcement powers, sets out that all documents and services, including web sites and phone services must be provided in Irish and the Language Commissioner's office has been turning up he heat on public bodies, right?

    If thats true, then by Deise's own addmision, the office isn't doing its job and should be examined then. ;)


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    #35
    texidub
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭texidub


    I know it's counter-intuitive, but I wonder: Is there any community more anti-Irish than the Irish language promotion community? By which I mean... is there any section of Irish society more opposed to how the vast majority of Irish people choose to speak and communicate? I think the Irish-language lobby is actually a threat to the cultural will of the majority of Irish people. They want to perform a linguistic operation transformation and won't be happy until the rest of us conform to their anti-Irish agenda.

    I wouldn't stop anyone speaking any language they choose, BTW, and I think it is great that the irish language still has some speakers. But don't force it on anyone.

    And for goodness sake, instead of promoting a particular language --as though that were an end in itself-- try promoting the kind of critical thinking that will give people interesting things to say... in whatever language they choose! If ithat happens to Irish, then great. It can be translated and shared with other people around the globe... although if it was written in English it could be shared with many more people. Unfortunately, I don't believe sharing ideas or moving forward as a society or opening up communication channels is what Irish language promotion is about.


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    #36
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Doesn't look like a large protest. I've seen more people in a chipper.

    Seems Irish people have already got things in perspective.


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    #37
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    If thats true, then by Deise's own addmision, the office isn't doing its job and should be examined then. ;)

    What is to be translated is set out clearly under the act, there is even a small booklet that sets it all out for anyone that want's to go to the bother of finding out what they are talking about before making unfounded comments.


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    #38
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Doesn't look like a large protest. I've seen more people in a chipper.

    Seems Irish people have already got things in perspective.

    Yep, it was a small group, around 100, but to be fair the protest was only a few hours after the government made the announcement.


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    #39
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    We need to be spending less money on pointless quangos and more money on promoting foreign languages skills that are of economic benefit to the country.


    We must learn to talk the talk for boost in trading

    Given that the majority of the global population doesn't speak English, language skills are key to unlocking our export potential, says Google boss John Herlihy

    http://www.independent.ie/business/we-must-learn-to-talk-the-talk-for-boost-in-trading-2940092.html


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    #40
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    deise go deo wrote: »
    What is to be translated is set out clearly under the act, there is even a small booklet that sets it all out for anyone that want's to go to the bother of finding out what they are talking about before making unfounded comments.

    Oh good, you can see my posts. Thought you might have been ignoring me, since you ignored my previous one where I said...
    Surely its possible to encourage people/companies/government departments to speak Irish without forcing them to.

    I'm all for having an orginisation whose aim it is to encourage people/companies/government departments to speak and provide Irish services. I just think it's a joke that we have a governmental department whose role is to force people/companies/government departments to provide Irish documentations that are not needed by the vast, vast majority of people.

    In a day and age where we're struggling financially, we simply should not be not only paying money to a group to force people to speak (etc) Irish but also forcing departments to spend extra money employing translators, spending more on publishing, etc.


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    #41
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    What is to be translated is set out clearly under the act, there is even a small booklet that sets it all out for anyone that want's to go to the bother of finding out what they are talking about before making unfounded comments.
    Is it not true that the Main Aim of the Office of the Language Commissioner is that all public services be available, immediately, on demand in the Irish language?


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    #42
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Is it not true that the Main Aim of the Office of the Language Commissioner is that all public services be available, immediately, on demand in the Irish language?

    I think that would be a fair enough assessment of the aim, though it is not expected to happen over night, the Language commissioner agrees a language scheme with each public body and oversees its implementation.
    Surely its possible to encourage people/companies/government departments to speak Irish without forcing them to.

    Well as for people, there is no provision under the act for anyone to be forced to speak Irish.
    Only public bodies come under the act so no Private companies are affected in any way.

    I am sure it is possible and I would imagine that the vast majority of the public service is happy to comply with the law, but at the end of the day, the law sets out that people have a right to use Irish when dealing with the state, and if a department of the state is not respecting those rights then I think it is only right that there be someone in place that can help the citizen access their rights.


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    #43
    texidub
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭texidub


    Everyone should wear green socks. Further, we should use government money to encourage people to wear green socks. Wearing black socks is anti-Irish. Upshot: people are still wearing socks.

    Also, everyone should use wireless computer mice. We should spend government money to promote the use of wireless computer mice. Using other types of comupter mice is anti-Irish. Upshot: people are still using using computer mice.

    We should promote the 12-bar blues. We should spend government money to promote the 12-bar blues. Listening to or performing any other form of blues is anti-Irish. have you no sense of cultural obligation?! Upshot: people are still listening to the blues.

    We should promote the Irish language. English is but a blow-in. Further, we should spend tax payers money to encourage people to speak irish. Upshot: people still talking sh*te.

    Irish language promotion: all style and no substance. Cut the quangos. Cut funding to TG4. Remove compulsory Irish from the curriculum. Give a little money to historians and folklorists to record what's going on in Irish for future generations.

    I'll say it again. The Irish language community are anti-Irish and a threat to Irish culture.

    Hobbyists out! :D


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    #44
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I think that would be a fair enough assessment of the aim, though it is not expected to happen over night, the Language commissioner agrees a language scheme with each public body and oversees its implementation.
    So, it's more than just translating some documents, right?

    Has this been costed?
    deise go deo wrote: »
    I would imagine that the vast majority of the public service is happy to comply with the law
    Indeed, you imagine this.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    but at the end of the day, the law sets out that people have a right to use Irish when dealing with the state, and if a department of the state is not respecting those rights then I think it is only right that there be someone in place that can help the citizen access their rights.
    Laws can be changed. The people in question all have excellent English. Hardly the basis for a human rights case.

    At present, we have more important rights to protect.


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    #45
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    So, it's more than just translating some documents, right?

    Has this been costed?

    Indeed it is more than just translating documents, I would imagine it has been costed, but I don't have the figures, you were the one talking about it being hugely expensive so I thought you had them, still waiting for you to provide them though.

    Here is a good example of a language scheme that would be agreed with An Coimisinéir.
    http://www.waterfordcoco.ie/en/services/irishlanguageandservices/irishscheme/

    Laws can be changed. The people in question all have excellent English. Hardly the basis for a human rights case.

    At present, we have more important rights to protect.

    Not true actually, there are still people living in some Gaeltachts who's Irish is better than their English and who are more comfortable using their native language.

    Laws can indeed be changed, but the Irish language community will still consider using Irish to be a right, people have gone to prison over the issue in the past, I would hate to see a situation where this would have to happen again.


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    #46
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    So how many of these documents have actually been read, has a single one been purchased to date:eek:


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    #47
    Sica
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭Sica


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-836418m-to-translate-reports-into-irish-1924948.html

    According to the above it cost €1.8m in 2009. I can't find a more up to date figure.


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    #48
    rodento
    Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Sica wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-836418m-to-translate-reports-into-irish-1924948.html

    According to the above it cost €1.8m in 2009. I can't find a more up to date figure.

    The majority of the Irish version of these reports and documents were not bought by members of the public.

    Says it all really:rolleyes:


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    #49
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Indeed it is more than just translating documents, I would imagine it has been costed, but I don't have the figures,
    Since the law was created by Fianna Fail, it's nor surprising there are no overall costings.

    A review of the OLA will clarify the costs and the real need for these services.

    Would you not agree?


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    #50
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    rodento wrote: »
    So how many of these documents have actually been read, has a single one been purchased to date:eek:

    There was an article released on it a few years ago with the exact figures, can't find it now. It isn't high, I'll put it that way.


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    #51
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Since the law was created by Fianna Fail, it's nor surprising there are no overall costings.

    A review of the OLA will clarify the costs and the real need for these services.

    Would you not agree?

    I take it then that you don't actually have the figures? On what then was your claim that it is 'Hugely Expensive' based?

    As for the review of the OLA, its about time, there are several changes that need to be made to it to ensure it works effectively, one of the biggest problems with it is that while public bodies have to provide services in Irish, often they fail to adequately advertise that these are available, Irish language service provision should be run an the Canadian 'Active offer' model.


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    #52
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I take it then that you don't actually have the figures? On what then was your claim that it is 'Hugely Expensive' based?
    It's common sense that duplicating services in Irish is going to cost a lot of money. It's understandable that the Irish language lobby would be keen to implement these extra costs by stealth over a number of years so that the public is not outraged. Let's not spend any more money on this Fianna Fail Folly until we know how much it will cost?
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Irish language service provision should be run an the Canadian 'Active offer' model.
    Your imagination is running riot if you think that Ireland and Canada are comparable.


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    #53
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Sica wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-836418m-to-translate-reports-into-irish-1924948.html

    According to the above it cost €1.8m in 2009. I can't find a more up to date figure.

    That's just for report translation. It does not include telephone, written and online services where people demand o transact in Irish even though they have perfect English.


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    #54
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    It's common sense that duplicating services in Irish is going to cost a lot of money. It's understandable that the Irish language lobby would be keen to implement these extra costs by stealth over a number of years so that the public is not outraged. Let's not spend any more money on this Fianna Fail Folly until we know how much it will cost?

    Still no figures though, I suppose opinion and conjecture are just as good.
    Your imagination is running riot if you think that Ireland and Canada are comparable.

    Where did I say that? I simply said that the services should be provided on the basis of an Active Offer as in the Canadian model, what exactly is wrong with that?
    That's just for report translation. It does not include telephone, written and online services where people demand o transact in Irish even though they have perfect English.


    Tell me, how much extra does it cost the state for someone to talk on the phone in Irish compared to talking on the phone in English?


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    #55
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Still no figures though, I suppose opinion and conjecture are just as good.

    To be honest, if neither side can provide figures, then neither side should go on about them. Both sides are hurt by an inability to provide them. You're the very one who makes wild statements like "There's plenty of people who speak better Irish than English" but don't have figures to back those statements up either...


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    #56
    Sica
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭Sica


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    You're the very one who makes wild statements like "There's plenty of people who speak better Irish than English" but don't have figures to back those statements up either...

    Here's a stab at a figure for this:

    According to the 2006 Irish census figures, there are 1.66 million people with some ability to speak Irish in Ireland out of a population of 4.24 million, though only 538,500 use Irish on a daily basis (counting those who use it mainly in the education system), and just over 72,000 use Irish as a daily language outside the education system.
    http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_9/volume_9_press_release.pdf

    The very highest figure for people who speak Irish better than English is 72,000, but tbh even this small figure seems like a bit of a stretch.

    Perhaps if each one of those 72,000 made a commitment to buy a Government report published in Irish once a year it would make it justifiable!


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    #57
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Where did I say that? I simply said that the services should be provided on the basis of an Active Offer as in the Canadian model, what exactly is wrong with that?
    The cost justification in Canada would be different to here.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Tell me, how much extra does it cost the state for someone to talk on the phone in Irish compared to talking on the phone in English?
    It's not as simple as that, especially if the matter under discussion is very technical. There may not be a person who is equally fluent in both languages and who is expert in the matter at hand.

    More importantly, if you cannot quantify the cost, it's reckless to proceed. Maybe in the Land of Irish Speaking it's different, but that's how things are in the real world.

    It's all about money.


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    #58
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Even using that figure (and I agree its generous), that works out at about 1.7% of the population.

    Even if we say those who use Irish on a daily basis outside of education use it because they feel their Irish is stronger than their English, that's still such a huge, huge minority as to make it crazy to have a seperate office whose aim is to ensure 100% of public documents are translated.


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    #59
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    it crazy to have a seperate office whose aim is to ensure 100% of public documents are translated.
    It's more than just documents such as annual reports and leaflets. It's correspondence, phone services, walk-in offices, web sites and online applications. All must provide service in Irish. The Irish Language Commissioner has powers to demand that departments comply and to fine or imprison anyone who does not cooperate.


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    #60
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    It's more than just documents such as annual reports and leaflets. It's correspondence, phone services, walk-in offices, web sites and online applications. All must provide service in Irish. The Irish Language Commissioner has powers to demand that departments comply and to fine or imprison anyone who does not cooperate.

    And it's not just that they have to be, it's also the way that they are i.e. according to the Act I can see three things wrong with this photo which will require the sign to be replaced.

    [EDIT] Hold on four things wrong

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/48073612@N04/4418112126/in/photostream/


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    #61
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Well on costs, there is this:
    http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005657.shtml

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/government-wastes-83641m-on-translations-into-irish-1990149.html

    http://tribune.maithu.com/archive/article/2009/may/17/translating-legal-documents-into-irish-will-cost-3/

    Interestingly reveals that a couple of companies probably have a large stake in trying to preserve this business.

    Another interesting thing I found with a quick Google was that most people disagree with documents having to be translated into Irish in the below Irish Times poll with 56% of people voting no.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9065

    As for the number of people that are Irish speakers and have limited English, I very much doubt the numbers are very high at all on this. I'd be surprised if you could find 100 let alone a thousand for the simple fact that few people are going to hire someone that can't talk to the rest of the company and is going to struggle to write emails/letters etc...

    So really what is the profile of someone whose main language is Irish and who doesn't speak English to a level that they could read a government document in English?


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